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NY 23rd District: I love this.

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Real World, Oct 27, 2009.

  1. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Let me begin by saying I know very little about the three candidates in this race, outside of what I've read in any articles. I'm not from NY obviously, so who wins is up to the people that live there. That being said, this race has me excited. Why you may ask? Well, because it's a people's fight against the establishment. In this race, which is a special election, the GOP big wigs inserted an establishment type candidate, and the people are giving them, and her, the bird. I say good for them. This is why I hate party politics. Read the article, and some of the points made by everyone involved, and you'll see the different reasons why decisions are made. Some feel that winning the seat is the most important aspect. Some others feel that principles are what matter. Clearly, the establishment GOP wants to win the seat, regardless of who they put in. If the person in question doesn't really fall into their belief system, it's ok, so long as they have an R next to their name. While i understand why parties do this, it's not my style at all. Principle should always win out. At any rate, my excitement here, has everything to do with the fact that principle is what's giving Hoffman a shot. Those supporting him feel as I do on most things, which is that it's better to lose (in this case that would mean the dem beating both candidates) sticking up for what you believe, than it is to compromise your charactor, for the sake of winning an election. Kudos to them. The more people demand accountability, the sooner the powers that be will deliver it.

    We've discussed this in the forum after the November election. What would happen to the GOP? Which direction would it go in? Would it moderate, or would it return to it's core principles? Would the issue with identification lead to it split into multiple parties? I think this race is the start of that struggle.

    BTW, I'm under no illusions about Hoffman's affiliation. People like Lieberman, that dude in Vermont, Hoffman, etc. are all likely to caucus with one party, even if they aren't technically affiliated with them. Still, we've got to start somewhere. Remember, lessons need to be learned.


    New York race at epicenter of a GOP mutiny

    Many conservative voters are rejecting the party nominee in a special House election, leaving leaders to rethink the Republican Party's identity.

    excerpts:




    New York race at epicenter of a GOP mutiny -- latimes.com
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
  2. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is the most important race in the country this year IMO. As usual the stupid pubbies don't get it. After the tea parties and protest at town halls all over the country this year, the let 11 party hacks in NY pick a lib RINO as a candidate.

    Palin bucked the establishment pubbies and endorsed Hoffman based on his position rather than party. The RNC gave money to Dede the rino, Gingrich denounced Palin's support of Hoffman, then Thompson, S Forbes, M Bachman, D Armey & Santorum chose principles over party. Now Hoffman is leading by 5% over the dem and Dede's support is collapsing:

    from Real Clear Politics: RealClearPolitics - Politics Nation - NY-23 Poll: Hoffman +5

    Thompson goes after Gingrich: Fred to Newt: We're not 'deaf, dumb' - Andy Barr - POLITICO.com


    Forbes endorsing Hoffman: Townhall.com Blog : Matt Lewis : Steve Forbes Endorses Doug Hoffman (NY-23)


    The RNC will have major egg on it's face if a non pol comes in and takes out their candidate and the dem. It seems they would like to leverage the tea party and townhall folks, people want conservative principles not party hustle.

    40% of people identify as conservative according to Gallup's latest poll. This ex Clinton official writing in the New Republic see a problem for the dems but misses that this is about small gov principals not pubbie politics.

    More Signs of Trouble for 2010


    If Hoffman wins this is a coup for Palin since she is the first pubbie to step outside the box and choose principles over party politics. The pubbie establishment hates/fears Palin almost as much as the dems.
     
  3. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I get excited when I see the establishment of a party get bltch slapped by it's own people. This is a prime example of why I think Newt is a fraud fony. I'm going to read Thompsons comments. He was one of my favorite candidates in November. When he wasn't sleeping on the stump of course.
     
  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am struck by how clueless the political class is about the anger among the citizens and how they want to peddle a brand instead of standing for principle. Hopefully this guy wil win and shake up the establishment.
     
  5. JackBauer

    JackBauer Pro Bowl Player

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    Actually that last real poll had the numbers at Owens (D) 35%, Scozzafava (R) 30%, Hoffman (C) 23%.
     
  6. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The RCP poll cited was from last weekend, what real poll are you citing?


    When was it taken?
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2009
  7. DarrylS

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  8. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Do you think that's why she did it? Or did she do it because it will increase her position as a "maverick?" Or because she's testing the waters for her own next move? I think she knows she's a bit too extreme for many Republicans and Independants - as well as for most Democrats. But if she can establish early on (such as now) just how much support a third party can gather together she will have a better idea of what way she wants to go in furthering her own political career. Without getting into the whole Palin debate it seems to me that most of what Sarah is interested in is Sarah - and that she does very little which will not somehow either call attention to herself or further her own interests. (Not uncommon for most politicians, I know, but she seems a bit more blatant than most.)

    True, but there is equally strong potential for it to backfire, as well. A party divided cannot stand for the most part. Doesn't this put most of the pressure on The Independants? And doesn't it put most of the power in their hands? Very conservative Republicans are, of course, going to back the very conservative candidate - I'm sure they're thrilled because they've got some place to go here - but the less radically inclined conservatives are not going to budge - they're going to vote for The Republican candidate, who's going to get straight line party votes, yes, but is also going to garner those conservatives who don't hold with the far right line - and there are still a good number of them around. The Dems are going to get the Democratic party line vote and they're also going to get some Independants. Most Independant voters are NOT far right leaners - if they were, they would not be Independants, would they? So they're going to split their vote between the left leaning and the convervative leaning - but I truly doubt they're going to go all the way to the far right and vote for the third party conservative. I

    It could very well end up that not only will the new party end up with egg on it's face but that it will turn the election over to The Democrats - and no matter how much anyone decries people voting party lives vs personal opinion lines, it lines up that way and it ends up that way. Is it better to let your most hated opponent get the seat and therefore the "power" for the next 4 years or is it better to give it to someone who you only slightly disagree with but who, basically, holds your same core values at heart?

    It's the same people, isn't it? The same people who vote for small government principals also vote for pubbie politics. The only difference is the amount of them voting in any given elections - their politics remain the same.

    Back to my first question. :) If Hoffman loses what does it become for Palin?
     
  9. JackBauer

    JackBauer Pro Bowl Player

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    On the 23rd. But my poll was taken by R2K, a well-known polling firm with a good reputation.

    Your poll was taken by something called Neighborhood Research, which polled the district for Minuteman PAC, the political arm of the Minuteman Movement. Plus the poll has a sample size of 366 voters, which means it has an enormous margin of error.
     
  10. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Link?


    'My" poll was linked from RCP a legit site.
     
  11. JackBauer

    JackBauer Pro Bowl Player

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    RCP skews to the right. Though I suppose I can't complain since this poll was commissioned for DailyKos :x

    Home | TPM PollTracker
     
  12. patsfan13

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    I would not that the Kos poll was taken before Palin & the others endorsed Hoffman (1019-21), the poll I cited was taken after the endorsements by the conservatives. I don't think the Kos poll is representative since it was measuring a different race.

    We will see soon enough.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2009
  13. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

  14. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Biden is going to NY 23 on Monday to stump for the dem candidate. Perhaps the candidate of the Conservative Party Hoiffman will win, Dede was the pubbie.

    F Thompson, had endorsed Hoffman awhile ago, when Palin endorsed Hoffman it changed the campaign. from a fundraising letter sent by J Carville:

     
  15. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The latest is Dale is encouraging her supporters to vote for the Dem... guess the party of family values is not all that cohesive...
     
  16. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #95 Jersey

    Nah, Dede s afflicted with Spector Syndrome. When you realize that you are out of touch with your own party and have no future, change parties. It goes both ways as Richard Shelby was elected as a Democrat from Alabama and switched to the Republican party.
     
  17. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm happy about this, cuz it shows that the people still have some clout. Party politics, or establishment politics, took a gut shot from the people. Good show.
     
  18. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    But she didn't switch parties...she bowed out of the race.
     
  19. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #95 Jersey

    True, but by endorsing the Democrat she didn't just burn bridges, she napalmed them and destroyed any future with the Republican party, she violated Reagan's 11th Commandment, thou shall not speak evil of a fellow Republican.
    She is liberal enough to fit in as a Democrat and I was anticipating that she will switch parties...soon..
     
  20. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    True, and I say good for her....to quote RealWorld

    "
     

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