Now Tim Tebow wants out!

[PittPatriot]

sign the beast.

His success here would only make the NYMFJ look worse.

 

[PatriotSeven]

I'm not a Tebow hater. Hell, I loved the kid in college when he was doing great things for the Gators. But he's an awful quarterback. His weaknesses have always been there and were first exploited by Saban. The only passes that he ever delivers that are strikes or have any accuracy on them are passes that he makes on the run, so keep him in the pocket by setting the edge and make him come off his initial read and he's done. He's wildly inaccurate all over the field as well. Last year with the Broncos, the Broncos were only able to win those games because their defense would keep them in it while the offense stumbled through three and a half quarters. After that, the opposing defense would usually try to pressure him the way the Steelers did, letting Tebow run all over the field and make plays on the move.

He looked pretty good to me under McDaniel's offense in 2010. Played mainly under center in his first starts in 2010 and showed he could make every throw from the pocket too, averaging 10 yards per attempt which was insane. Tebow's career got off track when Josh got fired and came back here, imo.

This was Tebow in 2010: 2010 Week 16 - Tim Tebow downfield completions vs. Texans - YouTube

Some passes are a bit high, but watch that and then tell me he can't make throws from the pocket. Some of his throws are actually really impressive. Not to mention, if you think he's accurate from the run, how can you think he can't do the same thing standing in the pocket? What human being is more accurate throwing while running than standing still? Come on now. That defies logic.

Why is it everytime I hear arguments about Tebow, pro or against, someone ends up defying logic? It's not Tebow that's been defying anything, it's the observers.

 

[condon84]

From what I've seen, he doesn't appear to have the fundamentals of playing traditional quarterback in the NFL. He seems to struggle with his mechanics once things become chaotic in the pocket. Granted, a lot of failed QBs can point to this as to why they don't succeed in the NFL but given Tebows ability to scramble along his physical size, you would think coaches would be more inclined to develop an offense that takes advantage of what he does well and not force him to do something that does not come naturally. He can still make enough quality NFL passes to keep defenses honest. He's not just some "fullback impersonating a QB" as some people have referred him to be.

It would take a team to embrace the good and the bad with Tebow and let him play the position his way instead of forcing him to play QB the traditional way. Then we can really judge if he can succeed in the NFL as a QB.

It's unfortunate that he's become a target because of his willingness to be open with his religion. I feel sorry for the guy. From where I'm standing, he seems to be a good kid, says all the right things, supports his teammates, and is a good "football" player.

 

[goheels22002]

No thanks.

Too much of a distraction and he's unwittingly a locker room cancer. The media crap is no what the Patriots want.

Not to mention:
A. when do the Patriots use a fullback?
B. why get a failed QB to play TE when there's Gronk, Hernandez, Fells, Ballard & Hoo-man?

He fumbles a lot, isn't fast and can't read a defense too so he really can't play.

I basically agree that there's no need in New England for Tebow. I do not agree that the guy will be a distraction. Belichick will not permit the "media crap." Tebow will not speak with reporters and Belichick will not answer questions about him. Lots of high profile guys come to New England and they cease to be clowns, or if they do attract attention that is unwanted, they are gone.

Tebow would welcome the cloak of invisibility that would be wrapped around him by the Patriots, I'd bet.

Bottom line for me is that I do not see a role for him. What position would he play?

 

[Kontradiction]

He looked pretty good to me under McDaniel's offense in 2010. Played mainly under center in his first starts in 2010 and showed he could make every throw from the pocket too, averaging 10 yards per attempt which was insane. Tebow's career got off track when Josh got fired and came back here, imo.

He actually averaged 8 YPA while throwing for 654 yards in 9 games played, had 5 TD's and 3 INT's, only seeing starting time in the last two games of the season, one of which was against one of the worst pass defenses in history. He came back to Earth the next week. The first year where he saw extended playing time, it was for a coach that adapted the offense to the spread option, which he played at Florida. Many games would go like this...

1. Broncos keep it close into the fourth quarter, usually with field goals.

2. Broncos defense gets timely stop toward end of game.

3. Defense would shift to either an attacking, downhill style for the last drive or a prevent.

4. Tebow makes several nice runs and short passes from outside the pocket to move Denver either into field goal range or for the winning score.

Sorry, but much of Denver's success was due to their defense keeping the game close as their offense was inept throughout the first three quarters.

This was Tebow in 2010: 2010 Week 16 - Tim Tebow downfield completions vs. Texans - YouTube

Some passes are a bit high, but watch that and then tell me he can't make throws from the pocket. Some of his throws are actually really impressive.

That's a nice throw, no doubt. Sometimes he is capable of making great throws. But, then again, so was Super Bowl champion Trent Dilfer.

Not to mention, if you think he's accurate from the run, how can you think he can't do the same thing standing in the pocket? What human being is more accurate throwing while running than standing still? Come on now. That defies logic.

Because Tebow's mechanics on the run are some of the prettiest I've seen. Watch him next time he's on the run and delivers a pass. He plants his feet perfectly for a mobile quarterback. I would actually argue that only Aaron Rodgers has better mechanics than Tebow while on the run. In the pocket is another story, and it always has been for him (bear in mind that I've watched him since he was in high school, living in Jacksonville). He consistently has trouble getting through his progressions in a timely manner and when he's upright, his elongated throwing motion hurts him a lot. It usually causes the pass to either be disrupted by pass rushers, or it makes him either overthrow or underthrow the ball in addition to just missing the receiver altogether. But getting through his progressions in the pocket is the biggest thing for him, especially at the pro level. He's too slow at it. Down the stretch last season, the Patriots and other teams showed this to be the truth. Set the edge and keep him in the pocket, then take away the primary receiver (usually Thomas and Decker) and he'll either get sacked in the pocket or try to run for it, usually into the awaiting arms of either a DT, DE, or blitzing OLB.

Why is it everytime I hear arguments about Tebow, pro or against, someone ends up defying logic? It's not Tebow that's been defying anything, it's the observers.

Nobody is defying logic here. There have been a number of quarterbacks that are better on the run than they are in the pocket.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

The point I made that you criticized was that Tebow could be useful if (and only if) he gave up the dream of being a QB and changed positions, with a team where he'd be no distraction (like NE). So, I am not talking about signing him to be a QB, which would be silly. Thus it is entirely analogous to Edelman, in that you said that it would be absolutely worthless to even bring someone into a training camp as a free agent, if he was trying to learn a position he had never played before.

A number of people with transferable athletic and football skills have been very successful playing a new position for the first time in the NFL (Edelman, Randel El, Ronald Curry, Josh Cribbs, Freddie Solomon, Brian Mitchell, to name a few), or even playing football after playing another sport altogether (Stephen Neal, Nate Ebner, Antonio Gates are recent examples)


summary: sign as a street free agent, for low $$$, understanding he will never play QB, competing with the likes of Tracy White, Hoo-Hoo, Devlin, Ebner, et.al., for a fullback /special teams / H-back / TE role somewhere near the bottom of the roster.

Do I expect it t happen? No. Somebody may sign him to fill seats and fail as a QB. I'd like to see him in a situation to actually use the running skills he showed daily in the SEC vs. a lot of NFL caliber talent.

There's been no indication he'd be willing to switch to another position on a permanent basis that I know of.

You can't possibly believe he'd be no distraction in NE.

Just because a handful of players have made it with transferable skills from another position or sport doesn't mean Tebow would. The overwhelming majority of players who don't cut it at a certain position are out of the league after a short amount of time. I don't know if he as the skills to succeed at another position or the willingness to try.

Is the circus sideshow that comes along with it, worth it for a James Develin, bottom of the roster type player?

 

[PatriotSeven]

He actually averaged 8 YPA while throwing for 654 yards in 9 games played, had 5 TD's and 3 INT's, only seeing starting time in the last two games of the season, one of which was against one of the worst pass defenses in history. He came back to Earth the next week. The first year where he saw extended playing time, it was for a coach that adapted the offense to the spread option, which he played at Florida. Many games would go like this...

1. Broncos keep it close into the fourth quarter, usually with field goals.

2. Broncos defense gets timely stop toward end of game.

3. Defense would shift to either an attacking, downhill style for the last drive or a prevent.

4. Tebow makes several nice runs and short passes from outside the pocket to move Denver either into field goal range or for the winning score.

Sorry, but much of Denver's success was due to their defense keeping the game close as their offense was inept throughout the first three quarters.



That's a nice throw, no doubt. Sometimes he is capable of making great throws. But, then again, so was Super Bowl champion Trent Dilfer.



Because Tebow's mechanics on the run are some of the prettiest I've seen. Watch him next time he's on the run and delivers a pass. He plants his feet perfectly for a mobile quarterback. I would actually argue that only Aaron Rodgers has better mechanics than Tebow while on the run. In the pocket is another story, and it always has been for him (bear in mind that I've watched him since he was in high school, living in Jacksonville). He consistently has trouble getting through his progressions in a timely manner and when he's upright, his elongated throwing motion hurts him a lot. It usually causes the pass to either be disrupted by pass rushers, or it makes him either overthrow or underthrow the ball in addition to just missing the receiver altogether. But getting through his progressions in the pocket is the biggest thing for him, especially at the pro level. He's too slow at it. Down the stretch last season, the Patriots and other teams showed this to be the truth. Set the edge and keep him in the pocket, then take away the primary receiver (usually Thomas and Decker) and he'll either get sacked in the pocket or try to run for it, usually into the awaiting arms of either a DT, DE, or blitzing OLB.



Nobody is defying logic here. There have been a number of quarterbacks that are better on the run than they are in the pocket.

Which is still top tier average, at 55%. I agree he plants his feet nice on the run. He resets and re-plants his feet, I always noticed that too, which is why his interceptions are low.

Look, my theory is this. Tebow was unfortunate to land with a highly conservative, defensive minded coaching staff who love to run the football in John Fox and McCoy. I can't think of a more old school coach currently still coaching in the NFL than Fox other than perhaps Coughlin. Throughout his entire career, Fox did not believe in throwing the ball and last year admitted they knew little to nothing about the spread option. They were on record that they watched some college football and then would implement the plays the following week. This wasn't something that was designed, practiced, with a full preseason like other teams running the spread option right now. This is why there are reports of him looking bad in practice. Every other QB is running a traditional pro style offense, and Tebow's trying to run the spread option. Same thing happened with the Jets. He's sitting there practicing his own plays with the second stringers, and has his own mini playbook while Sanchez and McElroy are practicing the Jets old offense.

Fox had a guy who could average him 5.4 yards per carry. Put Tebow + Fox on the same team and Denver's offense is what one would expect. They introduced some of the concepts of the spread option, but they heavily leaned on the running aspects. I just don't believe it was all Tebow because I'm seeing these kids like RG3, Newton, Wilson, Colin K running the same college plays they ran in college in the NFL, the same plays Tebow ran in college too.

Put Tebow in the Panthers offense, Redksins offense, Seattle's offense with or with some of these coaches who have recently coached in college and you will see much improved passing statistics.

That's what I believe.

 

[Kontradiction]

The difference is that RGIII, Wilson, and Kaepernick are all better and more accurate passers than Tebow is, both from inside the pocket and outside the pocket.

Look, my theory is this. Tebow was unfortunate to land with a highly conservative, defensive minded coaching staff who love to run the football in John Fox and McCoy. I can't think of a more old school coach currently still coaching in the NFL than Fox other than perhaps Coughlin. Throughout his entire career, Fox did not believe in throwing the ball and last year admitted they knew little to nothing about the spread option. They were on record that they watched some college football and then would implement the plays the following week. This wasn't something that was designed, practiced, with a full preseason like other teams running the spread option right now. This is why there are reports of him looking bad in practice. Every other QB is running a traditional pro style offense, and Tebow's trying to run the spread option. Same thing happened with the Jets. He's sitting there practicing his own plays with the second stringers, and has his own mini playbook while Sanchez and McElroy are practicing the Jets old offense.

That's because Tebow isn't capable of running a traditional pro-style offense, which speaks more to his abilities than Fox, IMO. They implemented a style that would maximize Tebow's abilities. As for the "comfort" level, Tebow played the most complicated spread option in college football under Urban Meyer. I'm not sure how legitimate that argument is.

Put Tebow in the Panthers offense, Redksins offense, Seattle's offense with or with some of these coaches who have recently coached in college and you will see much improved passing statistics.

You're more than welcome to your opinion. I'm going to disagree with it because Tebow's weaknesses as a quarterback aren't going to go away. His mechanics in the pocket range from bad to terrible depending on the time he's given to throw and his ability to go through his progressions is still worse than any of the other guys mentioned, save for maybe Cam Newton.

 

[eagle eye]

No thanks.

Too much of a distraction and he's unwittingly a locker room cancer. The media crap is no what the Patriots want.

Not to mention:
A. when do the Patriots use a fullback?
B. why get a failed QB to play TE when there's Gronk, Hernandez, Fells, Ballard & Hoo-man?

He fumbles a lot, isn't fast and can't read a defense too so he really can't play.

 

[PatriotSeven]

The difference is that RGIII, Wilson, and Kaepernick are all better and more accurate passers than Tebow is, both from inside the pocket and outside the pocket.



That's because Tebow isn't capable of running a traditional pro-style offense, which speaks more to his abilities than Fox, IMO. They implemented a style that would maximize Tebow's abilities. As for the "comfort" level, Tebow played the most complicated spread option in college football under Urban Meyer. I'm not sure how legitimate that argument is.



You're more than welcome to your opinion. I'm going to disagree with it because Tebow's weaknesses as a quarterback aren't going to go away. His mechanics in the pocket range from bad to terrible depending on the time he's given to throw and his ability to go through his progressions is still worse than any of the other guys mentioned, save for maybe Cam Newton.

That video I showed you under McDaniel's offense, says he is capable. He passed 29 times in that game completed 55%, made every throw you can think of, and averaged 10.0 ypa with most of them being from under center going for 308 yards. Now granted he scrambled, but so do other pocket passers when plays break down.

The more important question is why would you want him to? Why limit him to that? I honestly am not sure pro style offenses are the way to go anymore. Look at Andrew Luck in Indianapolis. Wilson and all of these spread option QBs look like better passers, because the Colts are hell bent on keeping Luck from running what would come easy for him too. Harbaugh replaced Alex Smith who was completing at 70% in the WCO with a spread option QB. Seattle went with Wilson over Flynn and it's not because he's a better drop back passer.

Simply put, the spread option is taking over, and teams who are running it are having much better results with it today than anyone thought would be possible. These QB's are coming in and hitting the ground running, while even the #1 pick is showing he needs a long time to transition to a pro style offense.

And will it even be worth it in the end?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I've seen nothing to suggest that the Jets would be a playoff team with Tim Tebow at the helm.

You obviously did not watch Tebow last season bring defensively minded Denver successfully to the playoffs. He did it via repeated close low scoring game scenarios such as the Jets-Tits 2nd half example which I cited. I'm using specific examples where he was demonstrably successful; you're just stuck repeating that he's useless.

 

[Kontradiction]

That video I showed you under McDaniel's offense, says he is capable. He passed 29 times in that game completed 55%, made every throw you can think of, and averaged 10.0 ypa with most of them being from under center going for 308 yards. Now granted he scrambled, but so do other pocket passers when plays break down.

The more important question is why would you want him to? Why limit him to that? I honestly am not sure pro style offenses are the way to go anymore. Look at Andrew Luck in Indianapolis. Wilson and all of these spread option QBs look like better passers, because the Colts are hell bent on keeping Luck from running what would come easy for him too. Harbaugh replaced Alex Smith who was completing at 70% in the WCO with a spread option QB. Seattle went with Wilson over Flynn and it's not because he's a better drop back passer.

Simply put, the spread option is taking over, and teams who are running it are having much better results with it today than anyone thought would be possible. These QB's are coming in and hitting the ground running, while even the #1 pick is showing he needs a long time to transition to a pro style offense.

And will it even be worth it in the end?

Nobody here is talking about limiting Tebow to anything. Tebow limited himself. Again, those guys that you have mentioned such as Kaepernick and RGIII have shown that they are more capable of going through their progressions and delivering accurate throws from inside the pocket. Tebow has not shown an improvement in going through his progressions (look at that possession the either night if you want more proof of that) yet and his accuracy is spotty at the very best. Spread option or not, a quarterback needs to effectively go through his progressions from inside the pocket and find an open receiver if his primary is doubled or locked down. I haven't seen any evidence that remotely suggest that Tebow has improved.

As for the spread option, you might be right. But it's still a relatively new "phenomenon" in the NFL. There have been offensive systems that have come and gone before. We'll see what happens with it.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

There's been no indication he'd be willing to switch to another position on a permanent basis that I know of.

quote, verbatim, from him, on his arrival with the Jets:

However I can help the team, however I can make a difference, however they can use me, I'll be open to it and work as hard as I can every time I step on that field.

You can't possibly believe he'd be no distraction in NE.

Was Ocho Cinco a distraction? Was Randy Moss when he arrived? A coach who is in charge, and a strong locker room can snuff that out immediately. Plus not even the most ardent Tebow supporter would be calling for Tom Brady to be walking off the field.

Just because a handful of players have made it with transferable skills from another position or sport doesn't mean Tebow would.

The question wasn't whether he would but whether it was even possible, making it a risk worth taking as a street free agent on low money, unguaranteed. You made a blanket statement that it was always a fruitless exercise to ask an NFL player to learn a new position. That statement was wrong. I think Tedy Bruschi said he never played linebacker in college, only D-line. Plus the many other examples I gave. Is it easy? no.

If you ignore every single pass Tebow threw in college, as I think you should since his QB abilities are not transferable, he was the most successful runner in the SEC since Hershel Walker. Are those running skills transferable? I honestly don't know, but I'd think the odds are greater than 0%, and a lot greater than the same question with respect to Devlin, for example.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Did he ever really want in in the first place?

 

[PatriotSeven]

The question wasn't whether he would but whether it was even possible, making it a risk worth taking as a street free agent on low money, unguaranteed. You made a blanket statement that it was always a fruitless exercise to ask an NFL player to learn a new position. That statement was wrong. I think Tedy Bruschi said he never played linebacker in college, only D-line. Plus the many other examples I gave. Is it easy? no.

If you ignore every single pass Tebow threw in college, as I think you should since his QB abilities are not transferable, he was the most successful runner in the SEC since Hershel Walker. Are those running skills transferable? I honestly don't know, but I'd think the odds are greater than 0%, and a lot greater than the same question with respect to Devlin, for example.

This was only true back when he was drafted and until about last year. When everyone was sure he would need to be re-worked.

But now that 4-5 teams proved this year the spread option is a viable NFL offense, then his skills are transferable. Nobody is teaching these QB's to become primarily drop back passers anymore. They're designing their offenses to them, letting them do what they did in college.

If the spread option works in the NFL, then I think so will Tim Tebow, because that's how he amassed 9200 yards, a 66% completion percentage, 88TD's to only 16 interceptions. It was the spread option. It makes it so much easier to complete passes when defenses stack the box or leave their secondaries short because they need help to cover that rushing QB.

It's the spread option that's helping these rookies complete passes as good as the elite drop back passers of the NFL. Does anyone really think Wilson, RG3, Colin K are as great at reading defenses, exploiting match ups and as accurate as Brady, Manning, Brees...really?

And yet here they are putting up stats that are rivaling those guys as rookies.

And look at this year's Heisman trophy winner, and the guy that's penciled as one of the higher draft picks, Geno Smith. Both him and Johnny Manziel...more spread option QB's. Guys like Matt Barkley, your typical WCO QB, is falling off the draft chart or at least getting overshadowed. So for the time being it seems to continue heading into this direction.

I feel guys like Tebow and Vick got the worst of it all because when they were drafted, nobody tried to give them a shot in those types of offenses because they didn't believe they could work in the NFL. Everyone talked about them having to re-learn their mechanics and change their game. Well that's changing now. They just came out a little bit too early and a bit before their time. And in Tebow's case, I think McDanield's, who has a close relationship with Urban Meyer and the Gators offense, had he stayed in Denver, would have done a much better job with Tebow than Fox did. McDaniels knows what to do with him, just not here.

As far as Tebow on the Patriots goes, he would only have 1 use. He'd be great running the scout teams whenever we face an opponent running the spread option. Other than that, NO!!!

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Did he ever really want in in the first place?

Yes he did. Tebow foolishly believed the Jets promise he'd be the QB were Sanchez to get injured or fail. They lied as can be seen by the Jets playing McElroy.

I read that he had a choice allowed by Denver; Tebow should have gone to JAX who wanted him. Gabbart would have been easier to displace and he'd be in home town territory. Bad career move on his part.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Was Ocho Cinco a distraction? Was Randy Moss when he arrived? A coach who is in charge, and a strong locker room can snuff that out immediately. Plus not even the most ardent Tebow supporter would be calling for Tom Brady to be walking off the field.

They both had a long track record of success in this league. Please don't tell me you're putting Moss and Tebow on the same level. BB hates outside distractions and he certainly doesn't need one coming from the media onslaught over a backup converted FB/ST/HB/QB or whatever the hell he might possibly be in this hypothetical fantasy world.

As far as the ardent Tebow supporters not calling for him to replace Brady - Wanna bet! That's the thing, it's not about football at this point - it's something entirely different.

The question wasn't whether he would but whether it was even possible, making it a risk worth taking as a street free agent on low money, unguaranteed. You made a blanket statement that it was always a fruitless exercise to ask an NFL player to learn a new position. That statement was wrong. I think Tedy Bruschi said he never played linebacker in college, only D-line. Plus the many other examples I gave. Is it easy? no.

I absolutely did not say that, what I said was:

"Just because a handful of players have made it with transferable skills from another position or sport doesn't mean Tebow would. The overwhelming majority of players who don't cut it at a certain position are out of the league after a short amount of time. I don't know if he as the skills to succeed at another position or the willingness to try."

Meaning for every Edelman or Randell-El, there are thousands of players who simply aren't good enough to cut it. They are the exceptions. Tebow's transferable qualities are unknown, it's all hopeful speculation.

I don't see him as a QB, I don't think he has the hands to play TE/HB and I don't know if he could block well enough to play FB. Can he run from the backfield as a RB? He's a slow, upright runner with some power, if he's not running from the QB position, he'd be less effective.

The real question is, are any of these likely marginal skills worth all this endless overblown hype and nonstop coverage and discussion?

If you ignore every single pass Tebow threw in college, as I think you should since his QB abilities are not transferable, he was the most successful runner in the SEC since Hershel Walker. Are those running skills transferable? I honestly don't know, but I'd think the odds are greater than 0%, and a lot greater than the same question with respect to Devlin, for example.

Greater than zero? Definitely. Better than players who were actual RBs? Doubtful.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

You're right in that it wasn' t you but rather another poster (Banana Republican) who said

"The most ridiculous thing is to take on a project who never played the position and expect him to get through camp without being cut"

I wrongly attributed that statement to you. I gave the list of players who had indeed learned a new position at the NFL level in response, and you responded next. sorry for the error...

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

You're right in that it wasn' t you but rather another poster (Banana Republican) who said

"The most ridiculous thing is to take on a project who never played the position and expect him to get through camp without being cut"

I wrongly attributed that statement to you. I gave the list of players who had indeed learned a new position at the NFL level in response, and you responded next. sorry for the error...

No problem

 

[Joker]

what we as a fanbase do NOT need is the legion of Tebowites logging on here and declaring themselves Patriots fan now...like they did with the poor Jet fans...that was horrible (or tremendous depending on your perspective)