Now, are We Ready To Keep Three QB's?

[RayClay]

Gutierrez was not supposed to improvise and pull plays out of his ass in pre season to move the chains. That's not how you impress the coaching staff here beyond your rookie season. He was supposed to show them he could run this offense like Brady does, or as close to it as possible, while allowing BB to evaluate the players he's playing with performing within that offense. That is why he is no longer here. He can't. And he also possibly has some shoulder issues. And therefore he can't push or back up O'Connell. But he still provided some benefit to a team like KC who needs to have two QB's on the roster who know how this offense ran as well as a guy like Croyle who is learning about it and who has some solid backup potential but is extremely injury prone. Thigpen apparently fell off the proverbial cliff too boot in the wake of Cassel's signing. He's presently teetering on not making that roster despite starting for KC last season...

They go over the game plan with you in the preseason? I must admit, I'm impressed.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

They go over the game plan with you in the preseason? I must admit, I'm impressed.

It's not the game plan Ray, it's the system.

Another thing some of us paid attention to, that others refused to, was Gutz was never more than the #3 all through camp and therefore he was in direct competition with the rookie they drafted. Cassel knew the rookie was no threat to him, despite what the mediots were spewing. And no matter how much somebody loved Gutz, KOC was a direct threat to him. And I think he clearly let that get to him and it caused him to overcompensate in practice and in pre season.

Flutie said it best in his tenure here. If you want to back up Brady you need to emulate Brady. What Brady showed BB when he went from #4 to #2 passing the legendary Damon Huard on the depth chart behind Drew Bledsoe was he could run this offense with poise and discipline the way the coaches envisioned it being run.

 

[RayClay]

It's not the game plan Ray, it's the system.

Another thing some of us paid attention to, that others refused to, was Gutz was never more than the #3 all through camp and therefore he was in direct competition with the rookie they drafted. Cassel knew the rookie was no threat to him, despite what the mediots were spewing. And no matter how much somebody loved Gutz, KOC was a direct threat to him. And I think he clearly let that get to him and it caused him to overcompensate in practice and in pre season.

Flutie said it best in his tenure here. If you want to back up Brady you need to emulate Brady. What Brady showed BB when he went from #4 to #2 passing the legendary Damon Huard on the depth chart behind Drew Bledsoe was he could run this offense with poise and discipline the way the coaches envisioned it being run.

Yet the guy who's sprinting like his pants are on fire instead of emulating Brady is O'Connel. What this all has to do with Gutierrez, I have no idea, I never mentioned him.

I'll admit they might want a vet because O'C is looking a little shaky. No problem there, if they like his potential.

I also don't think brief preseason appearances mean that much since the staff has a much better idea of how these guys look.

Cassell looked sluggish in the preseason, then went on to have a tremendous season, working through his nerves and showing a lot of guts.

 

[patfanken]

No its NOT atall. it was clearto several fans last year what BB was doing with Cassel. He was testing his POISE and composure by giving him dirty hands and tools to play with. He was sent out to play opponent's regulars with third string OL linemen and cuttable WRs to see what he would do.

Bill was purposely seeing if Cassel could handle the exposure to tough times. Cassel remained composed and didn't lose his cool, on the field; or pop off off the field, about the dirty deal he was handed.

IOW, he passed with flying colors, the tests BB had given him. Go read the Book of Job for an analogue.

WTF? Cassel was handed the keys to the first unit ALL preseason last year, and failed to move the ball consistently EVEN once in 4 games....and then had a stellar year during the regular season. So basing KOC's play on a preseason game where he was playing behind the 2nd OL is kind of ridiculous

BTW- AZ, KOC was very "poised" in the pocket, I thought.

 

[patfanken]

There are several propositions that are being thrown out here that I find fairly ridiculous.

1. The idea that last year Josh McDaniel somehow ONLY coached Cassel, and not the rest of the QBs. WHAT? Did he keep them out of meetings? Did he ban them from film sessions? Did he keep them from getting reps in practice? What IDIOCY! The fact is that Cassel got the attention that starters get, and KOC got the attention that back ups do, and he WAS the back up for 15 of the 16 games last season.

2. The idea that KOC was "shaky" is stretching it a bit. Well, IF he was "shaky", then Brady was down right incompetent, making poor throws, not escaping the rush, and making bad calls at the LOS. See how ridiculous that sounds.

This is where it would be helpful for Box to go over KOC's time in the game, especially the first 2 series. IIRC he had all 2nd OL people and WRs. Until his last series at the end of the first half, he was rarely in the shot gun and we ran most of the time. IN that last series he moved the ball well and got us in position for a FG. He showed poise in the pocket, not bailing out when under pressure, and creating time to throw the ball.What's to hate.

How can you call that a "shaky" performance, given he's a 2nd year player taking his first live snaps of the year. He certainly didn't light it up, but didn't hurt himself either.

Now getting back to the point. Should we keep 2 or 3 QBs. I still would like to he only 2 left on the 53. I find it would be VERY unlikely of ANYONE signing Walter if we cut him just prior to the season. There will be several guys with BETTER pedigrees still looking for work come Sept. than Andrew Walter. If they like him at all, he'd be a perfect candidate for the "shadow roster". Same for Hoyer. Once again we overvalue our own. He's a nice little QB who is exceeding expectations, BUT no one is going to add him to their 53 man roster, and why would he leave here to sign with someone else's PS. This is the best teaching environment in the league for a young PS QB.

KOC is a talent worth developing, and he's probably a year away from maturing to a true NFL starter, BUT he isn't being asked to start, and if Brady goes down, so probably does our chances of another superbowl, but NOT another year of 11+ wins, we'd still get that.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

There are several propositions that are being thrown out here that I find fairly ridiculous.

1. The idea that last year Josh McDaniel somehow ONLY coached Cassel, and not the rest of the QBs. WHAT? Did he keep them out of meetings? Did he ban them from film sessions? Did he keep them from getting reps in practice? What IDIOCY! The fact is that Cassel got the attention that starters get, and KOC got the attention that back ups do, and he WAS the back up for 15 of the 16 games last season.

2. The idea that KOC was "shaky" is stretching it a bit. Well, IF he was "shaky", then Brady was down right incompetent, making poor throws, not escaping the rush, and making bad calls at the LOS. See how ridiculous that sounds.

This is where it would be helpful for Box to go over KOC's time in the game, especially the first 2 series. IIRC he had all 2nd OL people and WRs. Until his last series at the end of the first half, he was rarely in the shot gun and we ran most of the time. IN that last series he moved the ball well and got us in position for a FG. He showed poise in the pocket, not bailing out when under pressure, and creating time to throw the ball.What's to hate.

How can you call that a "shaky" performance, given he's a 2nd year player taking his first live snaps of the year. He certainly didn't light it up, but didn't hurt himself either.

Now getting back to the point. Should we keep 2 or 3 QBs. I still would like to he only 2 left on the 53. I find it would be VERY unlikely of ANYONE signing Walter if we cut him just prior to the season. There will be several guys with BETTER pedigrees still looking for work come Sept. than Andrew Walter. If they like him at all, he'd be a perfect candidate for the "shadow roster". Same for Hoyer. Once again we overvalue our own. He's a nice little QB who is exceeding expectations, BUT no one is going to add him to their 53 man roster, and why would he leave here to sign with someone else's PS. This is the best teaching environment in the league for a young PS QB.

KOC is a talent worth developing, and he's probably a year away from maturing to a true NFL starter, BUT he isn't being asked to start, and if Brady goes down, so probably does our chances of another superbowl, but NOT another year of 11+ wins, we'd still get that.

There are several propositions that are being thrown out here that I find fairly ridiculous, too... Luckily, you and Bill are also seldom on the same page.

 

[patfanken]

There are several propositions that are being thrown out here that I find fairly ridiculous, too... Luckily, you and Bill are also seldom on the same page.

You'll have to make that accusation clearer, Mo. Bill and I are ALWAYS on the same page. (with the exception of the value of play action passes, of course)

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I've seen nothing from K O'C that says we'd win 11 games with him at QB. Not that I'm saying he won't make it in the NFL later on. Just insufficient positive data so far. Not unreasonable. I DO agree that Hoyer makes the PS unless either Denver or KC suddenly loses their backup QBs to injury.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I've seen nothing from K O'C that says we'd win 11 games with him at QB. Not that I'm saying he won't make it in the NFL later on. Just insufficient positive data so far. Not unreasonable. I DO agree that Hoyer makes the PS unless either Denver or KC suddenly loses their backup QBs to injury.

That's just ken extrapolating that if Cassel could do it any old backup can. He's kind of always been of the opinion that backups at the QB position are a waste of roster space anyway since you seldom need them and there are plenty of them inexplicably unemployed and therefore available...

 

[mgteich]

NEWSFLASH
More teams than DEN and KC are watching the cuts of the patriots and of other playoff quality teams.

I've seen nothing from K O'C that says we'd win 11 games with him at QB. Not that I'm saying he won't make it in the NFL later on. Just insufficient positive data so far. Not unreasonable. I DO agree that Hoyer makes the PS unless either Denver or KC suddenly loses their backup QBs to injury.

 

[Bluto]

keep 3 rather than hold on to a S/T guy who could be replaced with a phone call.

 

[JD10367]

I still think it's a possibility they only go with two QBs, if they also have Edelman around. Walter as #2, KOC gone, and Hoyer to the PS where he can be called upon if needed.

Belichick got rid of Gutierrez quick enough, so I don't know why he wouldn't hesitate to get rid of KOC just as easily.

Gutierrez was an undrafted free agent with limited college experience. O'Connell was a 3rd round draft pick who was highly regarded by the Patriots.

No offense JD, but I think this is an absurd statement. This is KOC's SECOND training camp ! You don't get rid of a talent like KOC so fast, it's not like we have Marino & Montana backing up Brady, we have Walter, a QB dumped by one of the worst teams in football ! KOC ain't going anywhere. He will be given the chance to learn from one of the greatest QB's and coaches of all times.

So.... is it still absurd?

 

[Bartmac36]

So.... is it still absurd?

Point for JD

So, all aboard the Feeley train?

 

[RayClay]

There are several propositions that are being thrown out here that I find fairly ridiculous.

1. The idea that last year Josh McDaniel somehow ONLY coached Cassel, and not the rest of the QBs. WHAT? Did he keep them out of meetings? Did he ban them from film sessions? Did he keep them from getting reps in practice? What IDIOCY! The fact is that Cassel got the attention that starters get, and KOC got the attention that back ups do, and he WAS the back up for 15 of the 16 games last season.

2. The idea that KOC was "shaky" is stretching it a bit. Well, IF he was "shaky", then Brady was down right incompetent, making poor throws, not escaping the rush, and making bad calls at the LOS. See how ridiculous that sounds.

This is where it would be helpful for Box to go over KOC's time in the game, especially the first 2 series. IIRC he had all 2nd OL people and WRs. Until his last series at the end of the first half, he was rarely in the shot gun and we ran most of the time. IN that last series he moved the ball well and got us in position for a FG. He showed poise in the pocket, not bailing out when under pressure, and creating time to throw the ball.What's to hate.

How can you call that a "shaky" performance, given he's a 2nd year player taking his first live snaps of the year. He certainly didn't light it up, but didn't hurt himself either.

Now getting back to the point. Should we keep 2 or 3 QBs. I still would like to he only 2 left on the 53. I find it would be VERY unlikely of ANYONE signing Walter if we cut him just prior to the season. There will be several guys with BETTER pedigrees still looking for work come Sept. than Andrew Walter. If they like him at all, he'd be a perfect candidate for the "shadow roster". Same for Hoyer. Once again we overvalue our own. He's a nice little QB who is exceeding expectations, BUT no one is going to add him to their 53 man roster, and why would he leave here to sign with someone else's PS. This is the best teaching environment in the league for a young PS QB.

KOC is a talent worth developing, and he's probably a year away from maturing to a true NFL starter, BUT he isn't being asked to start, and if Brady goes down, so probably does our chances of another superbowl, but NOT another year of 11+ wins, we'd still get that.

Looked shaky to me Ken. I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I still think it's a possibility they only go with two QBs, if they also have Edelman around. Walter as #2, KOC gone, and Hoyer to the PS where he can be called upon if needed.

Belichick got rid of Gutierrez quick enough, so I don't know why he wouldn't hesitate to get rid of KOC just as easily.

Nice prediction...

 

[Patjew]

Nice prediction...

Evidently JD10367 is some kinda genius.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Cassel had poise? I seem to remember the phrase "chicken with its head cut off" thrown around quite a bit last year. Sounds like selective memory to me.

Not hardly. What he did was display great POISE and little production. Fans not paying attention didn't notice what was going on. If you recall we had injured starters on the Offensive line and were auditioning lots of pickup WRs, too. Cassel got to play with Linemen trying out for the Team and hamburger flippers trying to be WRs. And BB made sure he did that against the opponents regulars, to ensure the odds were heavily stacked against Matt.

In the final tests of a QB for readiness to play, you need to know how he handles adversity,and how he leads. The Players knew what twas going on. Did you eve hear a Player criticize Matt Cassel. They were uniformly supportive.

Only the fans saw no TDs, but they didn't notice the few INTs or criticize all the drops that were thrown to the correct but the ham-handed receivers.

 

[AzPatsFan]

WTF? Cassel was handed the keys to the first unit ALL preseason last year, and failed to move the ball consistently EVEN once in 4 games....and then had a stellar year during the regular season. So basing KOC's play on a preseason game where he was playing behind the 2nd OL is kind of ridiculous

BTW- AZ, KOC was very "poised" in the pocket, I thought.

Patfanken,

I seldom fail to agree with you, but in this case you are all wrong.

First of all there was NO first string O line, including for the first six regular season games. Thats when Neal returned. In the preseaon, they were also auditioning vet FA tackles too, and the only way to audition them was to play them against the other guys regulars. Brady wasn't playing much at all, last preseason, so they let Matt absorb the sacks and punishment.

As I recall neither were Moss and Welker playing much as the Pats were trying to find their 3rd, 4th and 5th WRs.

So the deck was stacked against Cassel, as I said.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Patfanken,

I seldom fail to agree with you, but in this case you are all wrong.

First of all there was NO first string O line, including for the first six regular season games. Thats when Neal returned. In the preseaon, they were also auditioning vet FA tackles too, and the only way to audition them was to play them against the other guys regulars. Brady wasn't playing much at all, last preseason, so they let Matt absorb the sacks and punishment.

As I recall neither were Moss and Welker playing much as the Pats were trying to find their 3rd, 4th and 5th WRs.

So the deck was stacked against Cassel, as I said.

Just so you can't say I never agreed with you on anything You are correct. Ray Ventrone was catching the majority of passes last PS. Cassel was playing with everyone but starters. Thats why i was very supportive of Cassel staying the starter after the injury we no longer speak of

 

[JD10367]

Evidently JD10367 is some kinda genius.

About time someone else recognized it.

Next out the door: Wheatley and Watson.