Now, are We Ready To Keep Three QB's?

[JD10367]

Gutierrez was an undrafted free agent with limited college experience. O'Connell was a 3rd round draft pick who was highly regarded by the Patriots.

They've cut plenty of "highly regarded" players, some of them 2nd-round picks or FA pickups.

 

[Deus Irae]

They've cut plenty of "highly regarded" players, some of them 2nd-round picks or FA pickups.

Kindly list all the 2nd round picks of the team that have been cut during, or before, their second season with the team.

 

[Synovia]

Patriots. He apparently hasn't developed as quickly as expected so

Andrew Walter was signed.

Why do you think that Walter's signing indicates that O'Connel isn't developing. It could just be that hes, you know, better than Hoyer.

 

[PYPER]

All of these people claiming that KOC isn't developing are the same people who said the same thing about Cassel last season. A QB's production in preseason games isn't solely based on his own ability. He could be plenty ready but if the players around him make mistakes it will impact his effectiveness. I'm not ready to declare him a disappointment yet.

Keep in mind, we run very complex schemes. Schemes that provide a huge advantage when they are mastered by the players. But until they are mastered they also lead to a large number of breakdowns b/c of their complexity. This becomes even more of an issue at the bottom of the roster.

It wouldn't shock me to go with 3 QB's with either Walter or Hoyer being the guy but I wouldn't be so quick to rule out the 2 QB approach with Hoyer on the PS either.

 

[Deus Irae]

All of these people claiming that KOC isn't developing are the same people who said the same thing about Cassel last season. A QB's production in preseason games isn't solely based on his own ability. He could be plenty ready but if the players around him make mistakes it will impact his effectiveness. I'm not ready to declare him a disappointment yet.

Keep in mind, we run very complex schemes. Schemes that provide a huge advantage when they are mastered by the players. But until they are mastered they also lead to a large number of breakdowns b/c of their complexity. This becomes even more of an issue at the bottom of the roster.

It wouldn't shock me to go with 3 QB's with either Walter or Hoyer being the guy but I wouldn't be so quick to rule out the 2 QB approach with Hoyer on the PS either.

I didn't say it about Cassel. I'm saying it about O'Connell.


So much for that theory.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I thought Cassel had a mediocre to poor preseason last year, however it was clear that he was going to be kept on the 53 despite 75% of Patsfans polling he'd be cut. Sometimes you look bad runing plays for practice that aren't gameplanned against the D. But Cassie always had poise. O'C did not look poised or comfortable Thursday. Hopefully this gives the coaches a better view of how to improve his play.

We definitely keep 3...Brady, Walter and Kevin O'C. Hoyer (looks decent) to PS.

 

[Synovia]

I thought Cassel had a mediocre to poor preseason last year, however it was clear that he was going to be kept on the 53 despite 75% of Patsfans polling he'd be cut. Sometimes you look bad runing plays for practice that aren't gameplanned against the D. But Cassie always had poise. O'C did not look poised or comfortable Thursday. Hopefully this gives the coaches a better view of how to improve his play.

We definitely keep 3...Brady, Walter and Kevin O'C. Hoyer (looks decent) to PS.

Cassel had poise? I seem to remember the phrase "chicken with its head cut off" thrown around quite a bit last year. Sounds like selective memory to me.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Cassel had poise? I seem to remember the phrase "chicken with its head cut off" thrown around quite a bit last year. Sounds like selective memory to me.

No, it's my understanding the role of the QB on a BB team. You Cassel Cassandras loved Gutz and O'C last pre-season as they both ran around and varied from the script BB wanted the QB to run. Cassel kept his poise and ran the plays as designed, and with poise.

 

[Synovia]

No, it's my understanding the role of the QB on a BB team. You Cassel Cassandras loved Gutz and O'C last pre-season as they both ran around and varied from the script BB wanted the QB to run. Cassel kept his poise and ran the plays as designed, and with poise.

Um, no. Cassel ran around like a chicken with his head cut off.


I was fine with cassel last season, but the idea that he had poise is patently absurd.

 

[JD10367]

Kindly list all the 2nd round picks of the team that have been cut during, or before, their second season with the team.

You said nothing about "their second season". You said, "O'Connell was a third round pick who was highly regarded by the Patriots", as if to say the fact that he was a third-round pick makes some sort of difference.

But, since you put such stock in numbers:

2008: Crable (3), KOC (3), on thin ice IMO.
2006: Chad Jackson (2) gone, Thomas (3) hanging on tenuously.
2005: Hobbs (3), traded.
2004: Watson (1) on thin ice IMO, Guss Scott (3) gone.
2003: Eugene Wilson (2) gone, Bethel Johnson (2) gone.
2002: Deion Branch (2) traded.
2001: Brock Williams (3) gone.
2000: Adrian Klemm (2) gone, J.R. Redmond (3) gone.
1999: Damien Woody (1) gone, Andy Katzenmoyer (1) gone.

Aside from showing that, when it comes to high-round drafting, the Pats have actually kinda sucked a bit, this shows that BEING drafted in the top three rounds doesn't earn you a lot of bonus points on Belichick's teams.

 

[Deus Irae]

You said nothing about "their second season". You said, "O'Connell was a third round pick who was highly regarded by the Patriots", as if to say the fact that he was a third-round pick makes some sort of difference.

But, since you put such stock in numbers:

2008: Crable (3), KOC (3), on thin ice IMO.
2006: Chad Jackson (2) gone, Thomas (3) hanging on tenuously.
2005: Hobbs (3), traded.
2004: Watson (1) on thin ice IMO, Guss Scott (3) gone.
2003: Eugene Wilson (2) gone, Bethel Johnson (2) gone.
2002: Deion Branch (2) traded.
2001: Brock Williams (3) gone.
2000: Adrian Klemm (2) gone, J.R. Redmond (3) gone.
1999: Damien Woody (1) gone, Andy Katzenmoyer (1) gone.

Aside from showing that, when it comes to high-round drafting, the Pats have actually kinda sucked a bit, this shows that BEING drafted in the top three rounds doesn't earn you a lot of bonus points on Belichick's teams.

Actually, it wasn't me who'd mentioned that. However, I did ask about the 2nd round, two year thing.

The answer is zero.

Klemm: 2000-2004
Light: 2000-present
Branch: 2002-2005
Wilson: 2003-2007
Johnson: 2003-2005
Hill: Died as a Patriot
Jackson: 2006-2007

Only Jackson was let go after as few as 2 seasons, and no second rounder has ever had a shorter stay with the team.

 

[RayClay]

You said nothing about "their second season". You said, "O'Connell was a third round pick who was highly regarded by the Patriots", as if to say the fact that he was a third-round pick makes some sort of difference.

But, since you put such stock in numbers:

2008: Crable (3), KOC (3), on thin ice IMO.
2006: Chad Jackson (2) gone, Thomas (3) hanging on tenuously.
2005: Hobbs (3), traded.
2004: Watson (1) on thin ice IMO, Guss Scott (3) gone.
2003: Eugene Wilson (2) gone, Bethel Johnson (2) gone.
2002: Deion Branch (2) traded.
2001: Brock Williams (3) gone.
2000: Adrian Klemm (2) gone, J.R. Redmond (3) gone.
1999: Damien Woody (1) gone, Andy Katzenmoyer (1) gone.

Aside from showing that, when it comes to high-round drafting, the Pats have actually kinda sucked a bit, this shows that BEING drafted in the top three rounds doesn't earn you a lot of bonus points on Belichick's teams.

Good job. your list is a total washout as response to the poster. even Adrian Klemm played 4 injury riddled seasons.

Kindly list all the 2nd round picks of the team that have been cut during, or before, their second season with the team.

By the way, I believe there are 31 teams in the NFL who have been less successful with first round picks than us in the BB era.

Please correct me on that, but i read an article how our first round picks were league best.

 

[Deus Irae]

Good job. your list is a total washout as response to the poster. even Adrian Klemm played 4 injury riddled seasons.



By the way, I believe there are 31 teams in the NFL who have been less successful with first round picks than us in the BB era.

Please correct me on that, but i read an article how our first round picks were league best.

Not only was he ignoring the actual question, he's listing Woody and Katzenmoyer as part of some mythological "Kinda sucked a bit" group, even though they are from the prior regime and Woody was a Pro Bowler as a center, so you're probably just wasting your time.

 

[JD10367]

Not only was he ignoring the actual question, he's listing Woody and Katzenmoyer as part of some mythological "Kinda sucked a bit" group, even though they are from the prior regime and Woody was a Pro Bowler as a center, so you're probably just wasting your time.

Sorry if I accidentally went back one year too far in listing high-round guys who didn't stick. Clearly that makes me a "waste of time" because I'm not kowtowing to your great opinion. (And, BTW, the fact that Woody was a Pro Bowler isn't worth squat.)

The "actual question", as I stated repeatedly, is that YOU said KOC was a "highly thought-of third rounder", and I replied that both of those facts mean diddlys**t on a Belichick team.

Some of us simply look at the games and go by what we see. I see KOC looking like crap. I see Wheatley sucking ass. I see Maroney dancing. I see Ben Watson dropping passes. And I think it's quite possible all of them are gone before opening day. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. When any of these four turn into Pro Bowlers, feel free to serve up some crow. Otherwise, as they say, opinions are like a--holes, everyone's got one and everyone thinks theirs smell better than everyone else's.

 

[Deus Irae]

Sorry if I accidentally went back one year too far in listing high-round guys who didn't stick. Clearly that makes me a "waste of time" because I'm not kowtowing to your great opinion. (And, BTW, the fact that Woody was a Pro Bowler isn't worth squat.)

You went the year back to try strengthening an argument that had nothing to do with the point I'd made. And being a Pro Bowler is worth..... being a Pro Bowler.

The "actual question", as I stated repeatedly, is that YOU said KOC was a "highly thought-of third rounder", and I replied that both of those facts mean diddlys**t on a Belichick team.

As I pointed out, I didn't make that statement. You have me confused with Jimke

Some of us simply look at the games and go by what we see. I see KOC looking like crap. I see Wheatley sucking ass. I see Maroney dancing. I see Ben Watson dropping passes. And I think it's quite possible all of them are gone before opening day. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong. When any of these four turn into Pro Bowlers, feel free to serve up some crow. Otherwise, as they say, opinions are like a--holes, everyone's got one and everyone thinks theirs smell better than everyone else's.

Feel free to make a sig bet to back up your assertions. I'll be happy to make one with you regarding Wheatley. In the meantime, why would the four players becoming Pro Bowlers be your required level when you claim it isn't worth squat in regards to Woody?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Um, no. Cassel ran around like a chicken with his head cut off.

I was fine with cassel last season, but the idea that he had poise is patently absurd.

Tell me, did you watch the games? Ah, I thought not.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I still think it's a possibility they only go with two QBs, if they also have Edelman around. Walter as #2, KOC gone, and Hoyer to the PS where he can be called upon if needed.

Belichick got rid of Gutierrez quick enough, so I don't know why he wouldn't hesitate to get rid of KOC just as easily.

No offense JD, but I think this is an absurd statement. This is KOC's SECOND training camp ! You don't get rid of a talent like KOC so fast, it's not like we have Marino & Montana backing up Brady, we have Walter, a QB dumped by one of the worst teams in football ! KOC ain't going anywhere. He will be given the chance to learn from one of the greatest QB's and coaches of all times.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Um, no. Cassel ran around like a chicken with his head cut off.


I was fine with cassel last season, but the idea that he had poise is patently absurd.

You couldn't have watched the games last season. The knock on Cassel was that he didn't run around and make plays or move the chains or make things happen. (Though he had certainly done that as a rookie knocking old Rohan off the roster...). Gutierrez did, (as did the rookie) albeit against second and third stringers, and that got him cut because that's not what he was supposed to be doing in his second season here. Rookies can do that because they aren't asked to do much else and it allows the coaches to evaluate their raw talent. Once you get to year two and three you are expected to do as you're coached regardless of how those around you are performing so that they can evaluate you and them in context. That is exactly what Cassel did, and while it led to some here lambasting him as a bust and a waste it earned him the #2 position for the third consecutive season.

KOC is not approaching bust status. He's just developing a little slower. Part of that may have to do with Brady being out last season and another with Josh being pretty busy with Cassel and then gone to Denver. He was after all also the QB's coach. Part of it may have to do with getting too much too soon by default. Cassel in his rookie season was #3 and had Brady, Flutie and McDaniels coaching him...not to mention he'd been coached throughout college by Pete Carroll. As someone else said he had a better pedigree than KOC, who had more on field experience but at a much lower level of competition. He went in the third because of that. The Patriots thought he graded out a first round talent, but knew he would be a project because he has some issues with his mechanics and had not been particularly well coached. Now add to that losing exposure to Brady all of last season and McDaniels all of this offseason and you get...

Walter (or someone with some NFL experience) being brought in early in camp. KOC may still be the #2 or he may have to take a step back of necessity.

I don't really think it matters all that much though since he was never drafted to be Brady's replacement (as many wanted to annoint him as a rookie). He's developmental backup material and trade bait if they guessed right. As they did on Cassel (though you'd never have known that reading this board last August...).

Walter is strictly insurance. He is here in the hope they can do something positive for each other. Like he can bridge the gap between Brady and KOC and that will land him another shot at starting somewhere in 2010.

 

[RayClay]

You couldn't have watched the games last season. The knock on Cassel was that he didn't run around and make plays or move the chains or make things happen. (Though he had certainly done that as a rookie knocking old Rohan off the roster...). Gutierrez did, (as did the rookie) albeit against second and third stringers, and that got him cut because that's not what he was supposed to be doing in his second season here. Rookies can do that because they aren't asked to do much else and it allows the coaches to evaluate their raw talent. Once you get to year two and three you are expected to do as you're coached regardless of how those around you are performing so that they can evaluate you and them in context. That is exactly what Cassel did, and while it led to some here lambasting him as a bust and a waste it earned him the #2 position for the third consecutive season.

KOC is not approaching bust status. He's just developing a little slower. Part of that may have to do with Brady being out last season and another with Josh being pretty busy with Cassel and then gone to Denver. He was after all also the QB's coach. Part of it may have to do with getting too much too soon by default. Cassel in his rookie season was #3 and had Brady, Flutie and McDaniels coaching him...not to mention he'd been coached throughout college by Pete Carroll. As someone else said he had a better pedigree than KOC, who had more on field experience but at a much lower level of competition. He went in the third because of that. The Patriots thought he graded out a first round talent, but knew he would be a project because he has some issues with his mechanics and had not been particularly well coached. Now add to that losing exposure to Brady all of last season and McDaniels all of this offseason and you get...

Walter (or someone with some NFL experience) being brought in early in camp. KOC may still be the #2 or he may have to take a step back of necessity.

I don't really think it matters all that much though since he was never drafted to be Brady's replacement (as many wanted to annoint him as a rookie). He's developmental backup material and trade bait if they guessed right. As they did on Cassel (though you'd never have known that reading this board last August...).

Walter is strictly insurance. He is here in the hope they can do something positive for each other. Like he can bridge the gap between Brady and KOC and that will land him another shot at starting somewhere in 2010.

So Gutierrez was supposed to not complete passes?

I think you're reading way too much into brief appearances.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

So Gutierrez was supposed to not complete passes?

I think you're reading way too much into brief appearances.

Gutierrez was not supposed to improvise and pull plays out of his ass in pre season to move the chains. That's not how you impress the coaching staff here beyond your rookie season. He was supposed to show them he could run this offense like Brady does, or as close to it as possible, while allowing BB to evaluate the players he's playing with performing within that offense. That is why he is no longer here. He can't. And he also possibly has some shoulder issues. And therefore he can't push or back up O'Connell. But he still provided some benefit to a team like KC who needs to have two QB's on the roster who know how this offense ran as well as a guy like Croyle who is learning about it and who has some solid backup potential but is extremely injury prone. Thigpen apparently fell off the proverbial cliff too boot in the wake of Cassel's signing. He's presently teetering on not making that roster despite starting for KC last season...