Note to the Maroney Bashers/Addai Lovers

[speed]

I'm far from objective, but I'd take Addai on every count, except break away speed. Maroney is a guy when he gets to that second level seems to have an extra gear.

Addai has been more durable. One of the very best blitz picker upers. An every down back. Can run outside and between the tackles. Can be the dump off guy/has at least a decent set of hands. Makes the first guy miss. Rarely gets tackled by one guy. I guess I'm saying there isn't one thing he can't do.

I'm not saying Maroney can't or doesn't do these things.

Maroney needs a bigger body of work, but he hasn't had the opportunities, Addai has had, even in a full game, I don't see Maroney as being used as a an every down, all purpose back, thats not a negative, its just the situation.

I think its mostly to do with the way he's used. Maroney has shown he can do all the things Addai has done, imho. He just hasn't been asked to do some of the things and he missed, what, 1/2 a season.

As for the pass catch thing, thats splitting hairs. Maroney doesn't get thrown to and Addai rarely has an actualy downfield pattern, apples and oranges, to me.

Lastly, its way too early in both of their careers to really say or have the last word on this.

 

[strongside]

Hopefully Maroney is in the procees of proving that he can handle a full load and be counted on to make plays no matter how big the situation is.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I'm far from objective, but I'd take Addai on every count, except break away speed. Maroney is a guy when he gets to that second level seems to have an extra gear.

Addai has been more durable. One of the very best blitz picker upers. An every down back. Can run outside and between the tackles. Can be the dump off guy/has at least a decent set of hands. Makes the first guy miss. Rarely gets tackled by one guy. I guess I'm saying there isn't one thing he can't do.

I'm not saying Maroney can't or doesn't do these things.

Maroney needs a bigger body of work,

Well said, especially the bolded point. Addai already has back to back 1,000 yard seasons on his resume and has shown that he is a complete back - running, catching, picking up the blitz, etc. Maroney still has a lot to prove. Over 2 seasons he has shown flashes, but not the consistency and dependability of a Joseph Addai.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Okay. Number 1, give the guy 25 carries per game, and you have a 400-carry back.

Someone go and find the stats of the 400-carry back the next year. Start with Larry Johnson, the latest victim of this clever use of resources.

Number 2, the point I most often made in the whole Maroney vs. [Your Name here] discussion: Maroney has never failed to do what's asked of him. Like anybody else on the Pats' team, he's not going to be asked to carry the entire team. That was never the mission. How well does he do in those situations he's used for? That's what I want to know.

Number 3 - can we compare Addai and Maroney? If so, what's the outcome? For instance, if we "imagine" Maroney in Indy, and Addai in NE, what do we think would happen? I think yeah maybe Addai would do what we want. I don't think he'd do it any better. Do I think Maroney would do what Addai is supposed to do, were he in Indy? Eh maybe. Is it important? No. Same goes for Barber/Maroney. It's nice to see a LoMo highlight reel or two nowadays. It's also not the way you judge the entirety of his impact.

Number 4 - I had some issues with the idea that he's been bad at the stripe. That's going the way of the dodo.

Number 5 - Didn't see yesterday's game, because our local station in its wisdom decided I cared about the ***** Baltimore Ravens more. But from what I saw on Sportscenter - i.e., about 1/4 of his carries - he wasn't taking lateral steps without forward momentum (what people are talking about when they say he "dances.") Evidently, he does not always "dance." It seems that "dancing" is predicated on presence of a hole. Two things can be done: he can start seeing more holes when there is a possible hole, and the O-line can start making bigger holes. All great backs are undoubtedly a combination of these two factors. Nothing like the Jets and Dolphins to illustrate a back's potential. Nothing like the Ravens, Stillers, and these days the Colts, to illustrate a back's downside.

I think the "dancing" in particular illustrates how Maroney is a "work in progress." You can't get away with the same thing against universally fast D-players (the NFL), as you can in college.

This only adds to the likelihood that we have as-yet undiscovered upside to consider here.

Anyway... at the very worst, I think what we have here is a guy who can carry the load, and has never performed at below-league-average YPC. This is not Kevin Faulk, a role player who can sometimes be called on for all the carries in the game, but with decreased effectiveness. This is a legit featured back, who we choose to use in a 1/2-featured-role, between the Morris impact and the Faulk role.

400 carries a season, yeah, that's a great goal.

But if you have a game where you need 20-25 carries, I don't think anybody's shy about giving LoMo that role (or shy about giving him 150-250 carries a year.)

We have 2 high-stakes games to play in January, in Massachusetts. You don't think we'll need a little production at running back?

I think we're fresh and ready at that position. It's like that moment in Happy Gilmore where Adam Sandler says "Oh ohhhhh... Happy can putt!"

PFnV

 

[Miguel]

Best point made yet in this thread.
Remember, however this thread was in response to prior comments that Maroney couldn't hold Addai's jockstrap.

I pay attention to those type of post as much as I did those posts that said Addai was a reach by the Colts - very little to none. Given their track record with 1st round picks, when Pioli or Polian pick a player in the 1st round then I consider a good player until he proves otherwise.

 

[FortressX]

I get it now.
Maroney sucks as a RB because he(allegedly) can't catch ball.
Whatever!!!

 

[VJCPatriot]

And you can't just blame everything on the offensive line to explain away a RB's deficiencies. Look at how Ronnie Brown was simply a DOMINATING rusher behind that horrid Phins offensive line. Why can't the likes of Samkin Gado and Jesse Chatman have the same success? The answer is that there is an innate amount of skill and talent that is necessary in the RB position for success at the NFL level. Good offensive blocking certainly helps, but it cannot account for the talent level of the RB.

Maroney has cut down on the "dancing" in the last 2 games. Of course it helps that he had gaping holes to run through recently. The real test will come against strong run defenses where the holes will be smaller, and harder to see, or situations where a great RB will spontaneously cutback and suddenly turn a defense's strength into its weakness. That sort of instinctive and decisive running is what we need to see coming from Maroney before we can finally say "he has arrived."

Two things can be done: he can start seeing more holes when there is a possible hole, and the O-line can start making bigger holes. All great backs are undoubtedly a combination of these two factors. Nothing like the Jets and Dolphins to illustrate a back's potential. Nothing like the Ravens, Stillers, and these days the Colts, to illustrate a back's downside.

I think the "dancing" in particular illustrates how Maroney is a "work in progress." You can't get away with the same thing against universally fast D-players (the NFL), as you can in college.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

And you can't just blame everything on the offensive line to explain away a RB's deficiencies. Look at how Ronnie Brown was simply a DOMINATING rusher behind that horrid Phins offensive line. Why can't the likes of Samkin Gado and Jesse Chatman have the same success? The answer is that there is an innate amount of skill and talent that is necessary in the RB position for success at the NFL level. Good offensive blocking certainly helps, but it cannot account for the talent level of the RB.

Maroney has cut down on the "dancing" in the last 2 games. Of course it helps that he had gaping holes to run through recently. The real test will come against strong run defenses where the holes will be smaller, and harder to see, or situations where a great RB will spontaneously cutback and suddenly turn a defense's strength into its weakness. That sort of instinctive and decisive running is what we need to see coming from Maroney before we can finally say "he has arrived."

I still put him in the "solid" category. He's not one of the all-time greats of the game because he beat up on the worst run defenses, and he's not a bust because he wasn't the focus of the game against the best run defenses.

But I do believe we've got a sighting... the milk carton was sort of funny if misleading a few games ago, but now it's just silly.

Anyway it seems that between your position and mine there's only a question of emphasis. He's not proven as grade-A (no pun intended) perfect beast RB material. He's not a disaster. He's a guy who exceeds the average YPC, does a good deal better than many "name backs" in that category, and seems to be improving in terms of mechanics (we both agree on that subject).

I'm not privy to the inside scoop at Foxboro. I suppose it's possible that much of Maroney's development process has been spent in "unlearning" college tendencies. This is not the process for a "downhill" runner, who is great "right out of the box." I do know that during this process, he's played the role assigned him well enough to fill the feature-back role, to the extent NE uses that role.

I think the data thus far suggest no "extreme" action is indicated. When the rookie deal runs out, we'll have this conversation again, but right now I think he's fine measured against realistic expectations - and he does give you reason to think you'll see more.

PFnV

 

[VJCPatriot]

There has indeed been a sighting. I suppose I will need to find a new, amusing signature now. I'll only have to pull the milk carton out if he suddenly disappears again. I hope he does not, because the Pats will need a balanced attack in the playoffs.

 

[Deus Irae]

Now I'm starting to get confused. Does it take 25 carries per game to prove yourself? If so, you're not going to find very many 'proven' backs at all. Let's get off of Addai for the moment, since the Maroney bashers are conveniently ignoring his 2.5 yards per carry game he had against the Ravens even after they pummeled Maroney for averaging 3.4 ypc against that same team. The bashers are nothing if not consistent in their willingness to ignore and twist the facts in order to avoid having to admit they've been wrong. So....


Adrien Peterson has been anointed as a football demi-god. He's so good that sliced bread looks up to him on the "best thing" list. He plays on a team with a horrible quarterback. Now, how many carries is he getting per game?

That's right.....

15 (Maroney's at 14)


Furthermore, let's take a peek at his last 3 games:
SF: 14 carries, 3 yards
Chi: 20 carries, 78 yards
Was: 9 carries, 27 yards

That's not exactly pounding the hell out of the ball as the playoffs come near, is it?


The simple truth is that a glance at the Patriots' schedule this season, and a glance at Maroney's numbers on a game-by-game basis gives us the picture we'd all have expected of a quality running back at the beginning of the season. The only game that doesn't fit the picture is that second Buffalo game, which was a strange one that we've never gotten the facts about:

Game one: back late from injury, it takes a bit of time to get into sync. 3.6 ypc
Games 2-3: Having gotten his game under him, he averages better than 5 ypc
Games 4-6: Injury knocks him out of the lineup
Games 7-8: Back in the lineup, he again averages better than 5 ypc
Game 9 : Against a hyped up Colts team, he gets 3.9 ypc (Colts D's avg allowed this season? 3.9 ypc)
Game 10 : The Buffalo game, the only blip on the screen
Games 11-13: Games against 3 of the top 7 defenses produce a lower ypc
Games 14-15: Games against lesser defenses result in 260 yards in 2 games


The only real gripes people can realistically have about the kid is that we still don't know how good a receiver he can be and he's still got a lot of improving to do as a blocker. With this passing offense, the people who are crying because he's not averaging more carries are basically asking to change the game plan for the greatest offense in history in order to accomodate a running back and their archaic notion of balance. He's a liability as a blocker and receiver when compared to Kevin Faulk, so his snaps and touches are limited accordingly. This isn't rocket science, it's just smart coaching by the best staff in the league.

 

[sebman2112]

Over the last 7 weeks or so Addai hasn't been impressive at all, and even against weak or banged up defenses he's had a tough time.

Week 10 vs SD = 22 carries, 56 yards (2.5 ypc) - Maroney had 15 carries, 77 yards (5.1 ypc) vs SD
Week 11 vs KC = 21 carries, 72 yards (3.4 ypc)
Week 12 vs ATL = 10 carries, 44 yards (4.4 ypc)
Week 13 vs JAC = 21 carries, 67 yards (3.2 ypc) [This even with a banged up Jags defense]
Week 14 vs BAL = 13 carries, 32 yards (2.5 ypc) - Maroney had a better ypc (3.4), and a better overall game against a stronger Ravens defense [The Ravens were without Ngata, and some other key defenders vs the Colts] the week prior.
Week 15 vs OAK = 15 carries, 44 yards (2.9 ypc)
Week 16 vs HOU = 6 carries, 26 yards (4.3 ypc)

I find it funny that people who are well documented Maroney bashers claim Addai is a "25 carry per game back", when it's a proven fact that Addai rarely ever carries the ball 25 times in one game, and his rushing totals of late haven't been anything impressive.

Basically, Addai got off to a fast start, then slowed down. Maroney got off to a good start (the first three weeks he had 252 yards rushing), then slowed down after injury, and over the past four weeks he's been a key contributor on offense. So, we've got two RB's going in different directions right now, and NE just happens to have the RB who's put up the better numbers of late.

Let's also think about Addai's receiving numbers for a minute. He's cought 43 passes for 380 yards. The Colts use him as their main receiving back mind you, so he's not getting his receptions taken away by someone like Kevin Faulk. What has Maroney done as a receiver? He's only cought four passes this season, but on just those four receptions he's racked up 116 yards. He also had 22 receptions in '06 for 194 yards. So, when NE's used him as a receiver he's been effective, but NE doesn't use him as a receiver all that much, and for good reason as Kevin Faulk is one of the top 2 or 3 receivers at RB.

Comparing explosiveness:

Addai's longest run of the 2007 season is 23 yards, his career long is 41 yards (accomplished in '06), and he's only had one reception over 19 yards this season (the 73 yarder against us).

Maroney has three 25 yard plus receptions this season (long of 43), and two 50 plus runs this season (long of 59 yards).

Last year Addai had a long reception of 21 yards, which he accomplished 2 different times. After the 41 yarder his other long runs were 21 and 29 yards.

In '06 Maroney's longest reception was 31 yards, and he had two other 20 yard receptions. His longest run was 41 yards, and he had other longs of 31, 27 (twice), and 22 yards.

 

[DaBruinz]

That is the problem with stats, they don't always tell the whole story. I think this is a good example of trusting what you see. To this point there is no question that Addai is a more compleat back capable of carrying the ball 25 times a game for 16 weeks and the playoffs. Maroney has not proven that he can do this yet.

This being said, Maroney has the tools to be as explosive a back as there is in the league. He also is playing his best ball of the season and will be huge in the playoffs. I don't think that its Maroney bashing if you call Addai better at this point.

Yes, Addai is a more complete back. He SHOULD BE. He's got 2 more years experience in college (Addai played for 5 seasons). The LSU offense Addai came out of used him a lot as a receiver and in the backfield blocking. The Minnesota Offense that Maroney came out of averaged 56 rushes a GAME during Maroney's 3 years there. They regularly used 3 different backs and usually 4 or 5. Maroney was seldom used in the passing game and had to ask the coaches to put him out there for more passing plays during his junior year because he knew he needed to improve on his pass blocking and receiving skill.

While Maroney hasn't "PROVEN" he can run the ball 25 times a game for 16 weeks, I am hard-pressed to say that Addai has proven that he can do that. Why? Well, 1st off, its only his 2nd year and his 1st as the primary back. He's missed 1 game and parts of others due to injury. Secondly, Addai's only carried the ball 25 times or more once in his career. That was against the Patriots this year. Addai is only averaging 17 carries a game this year.

Yes, Addai is a more complete back, now. But, Maroney is quickly gaining ground (he looked good in the blitz pick-ups yesterday).

Also, the Pats offense is predicated on their RBs having specific roles, though they can fill in at other places. That's why Faulk is the 3rd down back. Addai stays on the field for 3rd downs.

 

[DaBruinz]

25 was a bit high however he is averaging 20 carries a game which is pretty good. Just stating the fact that Maroney has not proven as of yet that he can do this and Addai has 2 straight years. Just trying to look at this objectively.

If you wanted to be objective, then you'd know that Addai is only averaging 17 carries a game, not 20, as a full time starter.

 

[patsox23]

Seriously, unless you drink ALL the Koolaid on this forum, people see you as a hater.

THIS IS A LIE. It is a misrepresentation and a coward's argument. And it is what you guys seem to continually resort to when your points are being summarily dismissed as over-the-top. WE err on the side of balance - Maroney isn't all we'd expected so far, but it's WAY too early (and there are far too many extenuating circumstances) to call him, as you short-sighted folks do, "a bust."

STOP LYING. It's Christmas Eve.

 

[Absurdly Metro]

Maroney, with 91 fewer carries than Addai, is rested and healthy for the play-offs. Who would you rather have for January - a fresh, relatively healthy Maroney or a worn-down beat up Addai?

Great question. Is there any question, watching these two backs at this point of the season, that Maroney is the fresher of the two and that Addai does indeed appear tired?

 

[DaBruinz]

Careful, you may be seen as a Maroney basher.

Strongside, VJC IS a Maroney Basher.

 

[patsox23]

And you can't just blame everything on the offensive line to explain away a RB's deficiencies.

Again, NO ONE is blaming "everything on the offensive line." Literally - NO ONE. PLEASE STOP LYING.

 

[DaBruinz]

Seriously, unless you drink ALL the Koolaid on this forum, people see you as a hater. I am merely being a realist.
Maroney is a young player that has recently had some very good performances against the #30 and #32 ranked run defenses. I'd like to see him continue to improve and show something against the Giants who are ranked #11 vs the run.

*ROFLMAO* You aren't a realist. Your hate of Maroney showed through MANY times during the various Maroney threads. Including that STUPID Milk Carton sig that you had.

If you had be a REALIST, you would have acknowledged many of the VALID arguments used to prove you wrong about your hateful opinion of Maroney.

I certainly agree that it is ridiculous to think that BB instructed Tom specifically NOT to throw at Maroney.
However the reason none of us remember the last time he dropped a pass has more to do with when is the last time we even remember Maroney catching a pass??
Maroney's hands are a work in progress. I don't blame Tom for not being comfortable throwing to Maroney yet when he has superior and more proven targets like Faulk, Welker, Moss, Watson, and even Gaffney to throw to.

Maroney is a work in progress, period. That's what I've been saying to you haters the entire time. Why is he a work in progress in the passing game? Because he wasn't used there much at all in college. Why? Because the Golden Gophers offense was predicated on RUNNING the ball. How do I know this? Because they ran the ball an AVERAGE of 56 times a game during Maroney's tenure there. They only averaged 26 pass attempts per game during that same span.

 

[DaBruinz]

Again, NO ONE is blaming "everything on the offensive line." Literally - NO ONE. PLEASE STOP LYING.

Patsox23 -
That is VJC's way of being a realist. EXAGGERATE any argument the other person makes. He's done it consistently in ALL of the Maroney threads.

 

[dtbrks]

Maroney, IMHO, is hands down a better open field runner and game breaker. If we can get more plays like those huge runs yesterday, it will all be good. The line blocked very well on those runs, building confidence in themselves and maroney's ability to break it.