Not Much Camp Competition On the Defense

[RayClay]

Adam Seward would look like an All Pro here. Really looking forward to the Vinny Ciurciu era.

 

[DaBruinz]

Based on the roster (92)that the Patriots have up on their Web site, the Patriots have 39 defensive players. They have 46 players who are offensive players and the rest (7) are special teams (P/K/LS).

So I find it kind of funny that you say that there is all kinds of competition on offense and not as much on defense.

Mayoclinic provided the full list of players based on what Patriots.com have the players listed. And Ventrone is listed at Safety, not WR.

Are the Patriots thin at LB? Yep. But it seems they are trying to rectify that by acquiring Derrick Burgess, who will play OLB for them should the trade actually get consummated. Personally, I think that Watson or Thomas will be shipped off in part of the deal.

However, there is plenty of competition on Defense. Particularly at Safety and CB. At corner, Bodden and Springs are not locks by any stretch of the imagination. And Springs could also push Sanders for time at Safety if he fails out at CB.

And there is definitely competition at ILB behind Bruschi, Mayo and Guyton. Applyby, Alexander, and Cuirciu will be interesting to watch. And there could be some surprise releases from other teams. I think that the competition at OLB for the starting position opposite Thomas and for the back-ups will also be very hot.

I think that Jarvis Green could also be shopped around so that they can move Wright and Smith up a slot. And it would save them money on the cap. A team that is transitioning to the 3-4 would be smart to look at Jarvis as a 1 gap DE. A position I think Jarvis would accel in.

 

[mayoclinic]

Let's be clear. You listed 35 defensive players (not counting Ventrone who will compete for one of the offensive spots as he did last year. IMHO, every one of the ten is a significant reduction in quality from those listed in the now obvious roster. Things will change. Injuries will happen. The offense might get one of the positions (for example, the open ILB position). Perhaps we might have to count on one of the ten in case of injury. For example, last year Hobson failed, there was no one else, and Guyton seized the opprtunity, and did very, very well. Please note that I have a free agent being the favorite to replace McKenzie. We should have enough time to fill that roster spot. As you yourself has pointed out, someone like Napolean Harris would be much better than anyone we have available as depth.

IMHO, the BOTTOM LINE is that we have almost NO ROSTER DEPTH at all. Do you really want to have to depend on players like Craig and Titus Adams for anything but a Practice Squad position? To put it another way, if a position opened up because of injury, I think Belichick would be checking the available free agents for a replacement. Many of these players will be gone as soon as we sign draft choices.

DEFENSE (25)
DL (7) Wilfork, Seymour, Warren, Green, Wright, Brace, Smith
OLB (5) Thomas, Crable, Banta-Cain, Woods, Redd
ILB (4) Mayo, Guyton, Bruschi, free agent
CB (5) Butler, Bodden, Springs, Wheatley, Wilhite
S (4) Meriweather, Sanders, Chung, McGowan

I can't imagine how you think that we have no roster depth. Take ILB, for example, one of our weaker positions. Last year we had Bruschi who was slowing rapidly, Mayo as a high draft pick but an unproven rookie, Guyton as an UDFA, and Victor Hobson as the great hope who turned out to be slow as molasses. This year Mayo is a proven stud and future pro-bowler, and Guyton had an excellent year behind him to build on. Alexander is still there for depth and ST - I never counted on him for much. Bruschi is still agind and slow but a wily veteran. The McKenzie injury hurt us, and I hope we sign a veteran like Napoleon Harris, but even so we're in better position than we were last year.

I think there will be lots of competition in training camp. BB proved last year with Fernando Bryant and Jason Webster that FA veteran CBs are not guaranteed a roster spot, much less a starting role. Bodden is coming in on a 1 year deal determined to prove something, and the drafting of Butler will push Wheatley and Wilhite. Mike Richardson and Antwain Spann are a big dropoff, but they would have been competing for a 5th CB spot a year ago. All 5 of our CBs should be better than Deltha O'Neal, who started for us last year. At safety, Chung will push James Sanders. Tank Williams would have easily made the team last year if he hadn't been injured. This year he will have to fight hard for a roster spot. And I fully expect BB to make a few moves before training camp which will shake things up - the Derrick Burgess rumor being the latest one.

 

[RayClay]

Based on the roster (92)that the Patriots have up on their Web site, the Patriots have 39 defensive players. They have 46 players who are offensive players and the rest (7) are special teams (P/K/LS).

So I find it kind of funny that you say that there is all kinds of competition on offense and not as much on defense.

Mayoclinic provided the full list of players based on what Patriots.com have the players listed. And Ventrone is listed at Safety, not WR.

Are the Patriots thin at LB? Yep. But it seems they are trying to rectify that by acquiring Derrick Burgess, who will play OLB for them should the trade actually get consummated. Personally, I think that Watson or Thomas will be shipped off in part of the deal.

However, there is plenty of competition on Defense. Particularly at Safety and CB. At corner, Bodden and Springs are not locks by any stretch of the imagination. And Springs could also push Sanders for time at Safety if he fails out at CB.

And there is definitely competition at ILB behind Bruschi, Mayo and Guyton. Applyby, Alexander, and Cuirciu will be interesting to watch. And there could be some surprise releases from other teams. I think that the competition at OLB for the starting position opposite Thomas and for the back-ups will also be very hot.

I think that Jarvis Green could also be shopped around so that they can move Wright and Smith up a slot. And it would save them money on the cap. A team that is transitioning to the 3-4 would be smart to look at Jarvis as a 1 gap DE. A position I think Jarvis would accel in.

I like the look of the defensive backfield. Good mix of youth and veterans, and speed and power at safety.

 

[mgteich]

We are discussing competition for spots on the 53-man roster. Let''s review the roster fights since you think that there is so much competition. I am not counting on signings until they happen. You might compare this with the offense where they is compeitition for #3 QB, #5 RB/FB, #2 C, #9 OL, #4 WR, #5 WR, #6 WR, #2 TE, and #3 TE. There are many players competing for these roster spots.

DEFENSIVE LINE
There are ZERO roster fights. I expect that Belichick will decide to keep Smith as the 7th DL.

OUTSIDE LINEBACKER
There are ZERO roster fights. We have our five players.

INSIDE LINEBACKER
This is the great roster fight. Alexander and Appleby will compete. Now there's quality roster competition!

CORNER
There is ZERO roster competition.

SAFETY
Here is another great roster fight between McGowan and Tank Williams!

I guess it's a tribute to the FO that we brought in Appleby and McGowan after the draft or the entire defensive roster would be set (absent injuries), and there would be no fight for roster spots.

 

[DaBruinz]

We are discussing competition for spots on the 53-man roster. Let''s review the roster fights since you think that there is so much competition. I am not counting on signings until they happen. You might compare this with the offense where they is compeitition for #3 QB, #5 RB/FB, #2 C, #9 OL, #4 WR, #5 WR, #6 WR, #2 TE, and #3 TE. There are many players competing for these roster spots.

DEFENSIVE LINE
There are ZERO roster fights. I expect that Belichick will decide to keep Smith as the 7th DL.

You think there is no roster fight here? You think that Green, who is in the last year of his contract and has had 2 sub par years, isn't on the hot seat, especially where they shelled out good money for Mike Wright. Smith is on the hot seat as well. He was drafted to be a NT, but he's worked better at DE. And now the Pats have added a TRUE NT in Brace and 2 others who look to be fighting for Roster spots with Smith and Green. And that doesn't include Williams or Kenny Smith.

OUTSIDE LINEBACKER
There are ZERO roster fights. We have our five players.

Really? You think that TBC is a LOCK? You think that Redd is a LOCK? What about Craig and Crable?

Who is starting opposite Thomas? There is PLENTY of competition. Just because you choose to be oblivious to it, doesn't mean its not there.

OH, and would the Pats have been pursuing Taylor if everything was set at OLB?

INSIDE LINEBACKER
This is the great roster fight. Alexander and Appleby will compete. Now there's quality roster competition!

You can't have All-Pros at every position. Or did you forget that in all your rants about there being no depth? Can you see the future? How do you know that Appleby won't put Bruschi on the sidelines?

CORNER
There is ZERO roster competition.

Again. You are wearing horse blinders and just chose not to see reality.

SAFETY
Here is another great roster fight between McGowan and Tank Williams!

I guess it's a tribute to the FO that we brought in Appleby and McGowan after the draft or the entire defensive roster would be set (absent injuries), and there would be no fight for roster spots.

The Pats also brought in Jamar Love and Marcus McClinton as UDFA for competition behind the starters. They could amount to nothing, but they could surprise us. Just like 2 years ago when Richardson was surprising everyone by holding his own against Randy Moss in TC and had a spot on the roster locked until he went down to injury.

Considering there are 39 defensive players signed and the Pats carry 24 - 27 defensive players, that tells me that there are 20-25 guys battling for spots.

Tank Williams is in no way guaranteed a spot. Neither is Alexander. Nor McGowan. Nor Green, LeKevan Smith nor Kenny Smith.

There is plenty of competition if you choose to look at reality and not fiction.

 

[crowell33]

Pryor or Richard making the 53 man roster, over Jarvis Green, would not be shocking. Occam's Razor tells me Green, but I would not be shocked if it was Pryor.

 

[mgteich]

We choose our own realities.

In yours. UDFA's unseat veteran starters and top contributers. In your world there is great competition for roster spots from guys like Craig, Love an McClinton.

And yes, Banta-Cain and Redd are locks. That is the problem. There is no one to co pete with them for their roster spots except the Practice Squad maybe Craig.

Of course, Belichick might bring others to compete at LB. I've been saying that for weeks (actually months).

I do agree (and have said so) that LeKevin may not have a roster spot. But no one else would take the 7th DL spot. We've gone with six for a few years.

So you want to cut Green. What else is new.

You think there is no roster fight here? You think that Green, who is in the last year of his contract and has had 2 sub par years, isn't on the hot seat, especially where they shelled out good money for Mike Wright. Smith is on the hot seat as well. He was drafted to be a NT, but he's worked better at DE. And now the Pats have added a TRUE NT in Brace and 2 others who look to be fighting for Roster spots with Smith and Green. And that doesn't include Williams or Kenny Smith.




Really? You think that TBC is a LOCK? You think that Redd is a LOCK? What about Craig and Crable?

Who is starting opposite Thomas? There is PLENTY of competition. Just because you choose to be oblivious to it, doesn't mean its not there.

OH, and would the Pats have been pursuing Taylor if everything was set at OLB?



You can't have All-Pros at every position. Or did you forget that in all your rants about there being no depth? Can you see the future? How do you know that Appleby won't put Bruschi on the sidelines?




Again. You are wearing horse blinders and just chose not to see reality.



The Pats also brought in Jamar Love and Marcus McClinton as UDFA for competition behind the starters. They could amount to nothing, but they could surprise us. Just like 2 years ago when Richardson was surprising everyone by holding his own against Randy Moss in TC and had a spot on the roster locked until he went down to injury.

Considering there are 39 defensive players signed and the Pats carry 24 - 27 defensive players, that tells me that there are 20-25 guys battling for spots.

Tank Williams is in no way guaranteed a spot. Neither is Alexander. Nor McGowan. Nor Green, LeKevan Smith nor Kenny Smith.

There is plenty of competition if you choose to look at reality and not fiction.

 

[Rob0729]

Weird I think come training camp there will be a fierce competition for roster spots on the d-line, CB, safety, and OLB especially if the rumored trade for Burgess goes through.

Some observations:

- I don't think the Pats will carry 5 OLB unless one or two can prove versatile enough to play inside or are big time special teams contributors. I think there are too many secondary players that might need an extra roster spot. Besides the Pats have six OLBs on the roster as we speak with Angelo Craig.
- The Pats have 12 d-linemen listed (including seven NTs). At least four or five of those guys will be cut.
- The Pats have 8 safeties listed for 4-5 spots.
- The Pats have seven CBs listed for 5 spots. With three players drafted high in the last two years and Bodden and Springs, this position will carry five and they are probably locked up.

 

[Rob0729]

Bigger names I predict will be fighting for roster spots this year are Le Kevin Smith, Jarvis Green (could be dangled as trade bait), Vince Redd (why he is a big name I don't know, but he is a board favorite), Shawn Crable, Tully Banta Cain, Eric Alexander, Antwaine Spann, Mike Richardson, and Tank Williams.

I would tentatively throw Bodden out there (although the Pats have him listed as the unofficial starter). The chances are very remote, but if Wheatley and/or Butler come on strong and he struggles, he could be the victim of a numbers game. Again, it is only a chance in the under 5% range in my opinion, but it is not 0% in my eyes.

 

[mgteich]

You list four linebackers as fighting for roster spots: Crable, Redd, Banta-Cain, and Alexander. There are two players on the squad as contenders for their roster spots: Craig and Appleby. I just don't the great danger to their roster spots. How worried do YOU think that they should be?

I agree that either Green or LeKevin Smith could go if Belichick decides to go with only six defensive linemen.

I think that indeed Tank, Spann and Richardson are the likely losers in the fight for the last DB spot, with McGowan as the winner of the roster spot.

BTW, I don't see the numbers game argument even if Wheatley starts. We have Wheatley, Wilhite, Bodden, Springs and Butler and we definitely SHOULD carry five defensive backs, no matter who starts and who rides the pine. Do you disagree?

Bigger names I predict will be fighting for roster spots this year are Le Kevin Smith, Jarvis Green (could be dangled as trade bait), Vince Redd (why he is a big name I don't know, but he is a board favorite), Shawn Crable, Tully Banta Cain, Eric Alexander, Antwaine Spann, Mike Richardson, and Tank Williams.

I would tentatively throw Bodden out there (although the Pats have him listed as the unofficial starter). The chances are very remote, but if Wheatley and/or Butler come on strong and he struggles, he could be the victim of a numbers game. Again, it is only a chance in the under 5% range in my opinion, but it is not 0% in my eyes.

 

[AzPatsFan]

You think there is no roster fight here? You think that Green, who is in the last year of his contract and has had 2 sub par years, isn't on the hot seat, especially where they shelled out good money for Mike Wright. Smith is on the hot seat as well. He was drafted to be a NT, but he's worked better at DE. And now the Pats have added a TRUE NT in Brace and 2 others who look to be fighting for Roster spots with Smith and Green. And that doesn't include Williams or Kenny Smith.




Really? You think that TBC is a LOCK? You think that Redd is a LOCK? What about Craig and Crable?

Who is starting opposite Thomas? There is PLENTY of competition. Just because you choose to be oblivious to it, doesn't mean its not there.

OH, and would the Pats have been pursuing Taylor if everything was set at OLB?



You can't have All-Pros at every position. Or did you forget that in all your rants about there being no depth? Can you see the future? How do you know that Appleby won't put Bruschi on the sidelines?




Again. You are wearing horse blinders and just chose not to see reality.



The Pats also brought in Jamar Love and Marcus McClinton as UDFA for competition behind the starters. They could amount to nothing, but they could surprise us. Just like 2 years ago when Richardson was surprising everyone by holding his own against Randy Moss in TC and had a spot on the roster locked until he went down to injury.

Considering there are 39 defensive players signed and the Pats carry 24 - 27 defensive players, that tells me that there are 20-25 guys battling for spots.

Tank Williams is in no way guaranteed a spot. Neither is Alexander. Nor McGowan. Nor Green, LeKevan Smith nor Kenny Smith.

There is plenty of competition if you choose to look at reality and not fiction.

Da Bruinz,

There are some competitions at OLB but there is no competiton at starting SOLB. Pierre Woods won that job fair and square last season. Furthermore there is not a single OLB who can set the edge against the run as well as Pierre. That is the very fundamental requiement to play SOLB. Vince Redd with his size is the logical guy to try to groom to be a SOLB but he isn't anywhere near ready yet. So reserves he is, this season.

All the competitiions are at WOLB. Furthermore they are all for a reserve positiion behind AD Thomas. Unless you think someone is suddenly better than the pro-bowler.

 

[mgteich]

If Belichick is so happy with Woods, why wan't he signed to a long-term contract? Perhaps hsi competition was with Vrabel with regard to being the transition to Crable.

Da Bruinz,

There are some competitions at OLB but there is no competiton at starting SOLB. Pierre Woods won that job fair and square last season. Furthermore there is not a single OLB who can set the edge against the run as well as Pierre. That is the very fundamental requiement to play SOLB. Vince Redd with his size is the logical guy to try to groom to be a SOLB but he isn't anywhere near ready yet. So reserves he is, this season.

All the competitiions are at WOLB. Furthermore they are all for a reserve positiion behind AD Thomas. Unless you think someone is suddenly better than the pro-bowler.

 

[Deus Irae]

If Belichick is so happy with Woods, why wan't he signed to a long-term contract? Perhaps hsi competition was with Vrabel with regard to being the transition to Crable.

They tendered the guy, which is how the rules work. Neither you nor I know why a longer term deal has been reached, after all.

 

[Rob0729]

You list four linebackers as fighting for roster spots: Crable, Redd, Banta-Cain, and Alexander. There are two players on the squad as contenders for their roster spots: Craig and Appleby. I just don't the great danger to their roster spots. How worried do YOU think that they should be?

I agree that either Green or LeKevin Smith could go if Belichick decides to go with only six defensive linemen.

I think that indeed Tank, Spann and Richardson are the likely losers in the fight for the last DB spot, with McGowan as the winner of the roster spot.

BTW, I don't see the numbers game argument even if Wheatley starts. We have Wheatley, Wilhite, Bodden, Springs and Butler and we definitely SHOULD carry five defensive backs, no matter who starts and who rides the pine. Do you disagree?

No one thought Guyton was going to make the roster either last may. I think either Redd or Crable will not make the final 53 man roster, maybe both if Burgess is traded. Besides, I am concerned that Crable may have been in the dog house last year since he was a healthy scratch for the first eight games and Redd played well on special teams at the end of the year, but could be deemed expendable if one of the undrafted free agents steps up or they need an extra roster spot. I don't know if they are going to carry 5 OLBs when they may need extra spots elswhere like when they carry 5 RBs again.

Even if they carry seven d-linemen, I could see a scenario where either Green or Le Kevin Smith go. Kenny Smith could be the seventh D-lineman although he is a long shot. The Pats did draft three d-linemen too with at least Brace a lock, but either Richard or Pryor could Bustin' Loose (sorry, I had to put a Richard Pryor pun there) and get a roster spot too.

 

[jmt57]

A lot can and probably will change between now and the start of the season as far as the roster is concerned. Heading in to training camp a year ago it was assumed Fernando Bryant would start, and look at what happened to him. Victor Hobson and Tank Williams were going to be key players, while Gary Guyton was just taking a space as camp fodder.

Roster projections make for interesting debate during this, the slowest part of the year for an NFL fan, but it may be a bit premature to say the roster is set or there will be little competition during training camp. If there is any fanbase that should expect the unexpected when it comes to its team's roster, that should be this one, fans of the Pats.

 

[KDPPatsfan85]

Fernando Bryant and Leigh Bodden are two different players. I think Bodden will actually make the roster unlike Bryant. Like I said before Leigh Bodden excelled in Romeo's Defense and he will excel in the Patriots defense!

 

[AzPatsFan]

If Belichick is so happy with Woods, why wan't he signed to a long-term contract? Perhaps hsi competition was with Vrabel with regard to being the transition to Crable.

They tendered Woods with a Second Round tender. That is a lot of money to pay out to a scrub.

 

[DaBruinz]

We choose our own realities.

In yours. UDFA's unseat veteran starters and top contributers. In your world there is great competition for roster spots from guys like Craig, Love an McClinton.

Nice of you to make sh!t up, MG. Too bad I never said ANY such thing. BTW, who are these "veteran starters and top contributors" that you are referring to?

And yes, Banta-Cain and Redd are locks. That is the problem. There is no one to co pete with them for their roster spots except the Practice Squad maybe Craig.

Redd and Banta-Cain aren't locks and its foolishness on your part to say they are..

Of course, Belichick might bring others to compete at LB. I've been saying that for weeks (actually months).

I do agree (and have said so) that LeKevin may not have a roster spot. But no one else would take the 7th DL spot. We've gone with six for a few years.

So you want to cut Green. What else is new.

You just love making sh!t up. Green hasn't done anything for 2 years. If you knew anything about the Patriots, you know that BB doesn't like to carry dead weight. If you think that Green is safe, fine. But many people thought that Colvin was safe. And before that, Lawyer Milloy. There are others as well. But you just keep spouting this crap that there is no camp competition on defense. It makes you look own so smart..

 

[mgteich]

We are discussing the roster AS IT EXISTS.

LET's TAKE THIS IN STEPS

OUTSIDE LINEBACKER
1) AS IT EXISTS FOR THE FIVE OLB SPOTS, five of the following will make the team: Thomas, Woods, Crable, Banta-Cain, Redd, Ciurciu and Craig.
2) You have indicated that it is foolish to belive that Banta-Cain and Redd have two of these spots. Personally, I think the alternative of having Ciurcui or Craig beating them out for a spot is very, very unlikely. Other poster can judge which is more likely.

CORNER
I say that all the five spots are locked up. You disagree. People can judge for themselves how much of a chance Richardson or Spann have to beat out the top five.

DEFENSIVE LINE
I had already agreed that Belichick might carry only six linemen and that in that scenario, Smith or Green would go. I am absolutely fine if Belichick wants to dump Green. Of course, I would have thought that this would have happened already if it were going to happen.

You seem to believe that Richard or Pryor have a chance for the 53-man roster and a chacne to beat out Green for a roster spot. I think that scenario is all but delusional. Others can judge.

SAFETY
I have indicated that Macowan is likely to beat out Tank Williams for a roster spot.

MILLOY
Just because the patriots made the stupidest move in their history is no reason to repeat such a ridiculous move.

BOTTOM LINE
I have indicated that 23
============================
QUESTION ONE
Which of these loscks do you disagree with and who on the roster do YOU think can potentially beat them out?
-------------
DEFENSE (21)
DL (5) Wilfork, Seymour, Warren, Wright, Brace
OLB (5) Thomas, Crable, Banta-Cain, Woods, Redd
ILB (3) Mayo, Guyton, Bruschi
CB (5) Butler, Bodden, Springs, Wheatley, Wilhite
S (3) Meriweather, Sanders, Chung

QUESTION 2 (players 22 and 23)
I expect that Smith and Green will have spots if we have 7 DL spots. Do you disagree? If not, who on the team will beat them out for a roster spot. I agree that we could only carry six.

QUESTION 3 (the battle for the 9th DB spot - players 24 and 25 and 26 and 27)
I have indicated that the fight is between Tank Williams, McGowan, Richardson and Spann. Do you disagree?

QUESTION 5 (the battle for backup ILB - players 28 and 29)
I have indicated the fight is between Alexander and Appleby. Do you disagree?

QUESTION 6 - BOTTOM LINE
I have listed 29 players with chances to win up 24-25 defensive roster spots. Barring injuries, which additional players on the roster do you think have a reasonable chance at a roster spot? Or do you think that competition for 2-3 of the 24-25 roster spots is lots of competition?