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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by patfanken, Nov 30, 2007.

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  1. patfanken

    patfanken On the Roster

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    ..... here are a few thoughts because I have nothing better to do today.

    1. Conspiracy theory: I believe that Jaws is without question the best analyst at ESPN. I have to believe that he doesn't actually believe his report about Moss taking off plays. I believe he was forced to go into the filmroom and find a few plays to present as proof to this trumped up accusation. Just another example of ESPN CREATING news rather than just reporting it. And it another in a long line of its piling on the Pats and creating a negative image, so its "good vs evil" story line can continue.

    2. THis is the same guy who YESTERDAY told us that because Brady was hit only 4 times out of 59 passes that his OL actually DID do a great job, even though the IMPRESSION was that Dallas had a lot of pressure on him. That was a GOOD analysis. Yet how come the Randy Moss who was on the field for all of those 59 passes, runninng 20-50 yd sprints, with someone banging on him, can't take a couple of plays off? Where is the logic.

    3. Every analyst who was a WR, constantly makes the point that you can't play the position WITHOUT taking a few plays off. Don't forget you not only have to sprint DOWN field, about 50% of the time, yuo have run back to the huddle. Don't forget that Moss is on the field virtually everytime the Pats pass the ball. BELIEVE ME, the Pats coaching staff and players AREN'T worried about Randy Moss' effort.

    4. Contrary to common wisdom, I am of the firm belief that the Pats should opt to KO, every time they play an AWAY game for the following reasons.

    a. At the start of the game the crowd is at its noisiest, which makes it more difficult to execute the offense.
    b. The opponent's defense WILL show its new wrinkles, and because of that
    the offensive players are more likely to make a mistake early on in the game, and FURTHER inflame the crowd
    c. AND morst improtantly, I think its a DISTINCT advantage to get the KO opening the 2nd half. You have seen the what the defense has to offer. The players are now "into" the game. You have had a chance to make any adjustments to the game plan. The crowd is likely to be less noisy. Finally you don't risk the possiblility of having your defense on the field for 2 long drives in a row. A killer for us in the 2006 AFCCG, where the Pats were on the field for a long dirve at the end of the half. A long drive at the start of the half, and ANOTHER long drive after a 3 and out. After that they were toast.

    This isn't a critical thing, but I still think its a small edge, every game, but even a bigger one when you are on the road.

    5. "bountygate" is a joke. Back in college we had pools on our team to see who would get the first sack, fumble recovery, cause a TO, etc. And that was in the 60's at a division 3 school. :eek: This is a practice that is as old as football and does NO HARM.

    I'm beginning to worry about Roger Goodell's overbearing attempt to control EVERY aspect of the game. His over the top approach is actually DAMAGING the game IMHO. Not only did he practice overkill on the Pats during spygate, his Nixon like approach to explaining his actions, not only hurt the Pats, but the league in general. His actions on the bounty gate with the Packers again make people look at the league in a negative manner. Frankly, forgetting about his actions against the Pats, I'm getting tired of his "little dictator" act.

    6. Continuing the cospiracy theory: I couldn't BELIEVE the tease on ESPN the other day. "....and later we will talk about how the Patriots might be breaking ANOTHER NFL Policy"

    What makes it so mean spirited is that when they actually DO talk about it, their own analysts rightfully laugh at them, yet it was a constant theme on every show they did that day. :mad:

    7. I was really worried about the Cowboys BEFORE the game last night, and the first few moments had me REALLY worried. HOWEVER when you think about it, the Cowboys barely beat a team without its top 4 players, who's defense had to change its basic defensive philosophy, lost their QB early in the game, when the had the homefield advantage, AND at least 2 outrageous calls go in their favor.

    No it will make for a great media hype session the weeks before the game "should" the Pats and Cowboys make it to the game. However, given a neutral field, I think the game itself will be a 3 score win for the Pats.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2007
  2. Hok

    Hok Rookie

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    In the NFL, you don't have the option to defer until the second half like in college. When you win the toss, you have two options: pick whether to kick or receive, or pick which goal to defend. The team that lost the toss gets these same choices after halftime.

    So, if you win the toss and choose to kick, you are essesntially giving away a possession, because the other team will naturally choose to receive at the start of the second half.
  3. patfanken

    patfanken On the Roster

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    Are you sure on that Hok? I can't say for SURE that you CAN defer, but I do think they have an option. Could be wrong. At any rate if you are correct, then I will be rooting for the Pats to lose EVERY opening toss. ;)
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2007
  4. JaredOfNazareth

    JaredOfNazareth Rookie

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    I like your point about getting the kickoff in the second half rather than the first on the road. I'm not worried about the Ravens offense so just kick it to them. OTOH, marching down the field against the Steelers defense first would really put the pressure on. It depends on the strenth of the opponents offense.
  5. Hok

    Hok Rookie

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    I am pretty sure.

    I agree with you though. I am always happy when the Pats lose the toss and have to kick off, because getting the ball to start the second half is never a bad thing - if you're up, you can extend the lead, and if you're down, you can get back in it.

    I wish the NFL would add in a defer option on the coin toss so that there would actually be some strategy involved. As it is now, if you win the toss, you pretty much have to take the ball.
  6. Wax Frog

    Wax Frog Rookie

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    I've always hated that rule. Seems to me the toss-winning team ought to have the option of making their choice in the second half.

    Last edited: Nov 30, 2007
  7. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    I always thought you could defer, but can't say that I know...
  8. ALP

    ALP Rookie

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    nope, sry to dispell this, but...

    the teamt that gets the ball to open the game ALWAYS kicks it off at the half, and the team that kicks it off to start the game ALWAYS gets it when the half starts...

    there is no coin toss at the beginning of the second hafl
  9. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    If you happened to catch any of the sideline shots of Wade's gee, golly, dag gum it reactions when his players screwed up, or his bizarro locker room post game wrap up speech where he asked what we think of our fans, our offense, our defense, our owner, and our coaches after this great win, and then asked for his spokesman "ter-rel" to come forward and take over the pep rally, you would worry even less.

    BTW this is the Coin Toss Rule:

    1. The toss of coin will take place within three minutes of kickoff in center of field. The toss will be called by the visiting captain. The winner may choose one of two privileges and the loser gets the other:

    (a) Receive or kick

    (b) Goal his team will defend



    2. Immediately prior to the start of the second half, the captains of both teams must inform the officials of their respective choices. The loser of the original coin toss gets first choice.
  10. Hok

    Hok Rookie

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    When did I say there was a coin toss at the beginning of the second half?

    Anyway, I'm right. Here's the pertinent section from the NFL rulebook:

    Article 2 Not more than three minutes before the kickoff of the first half, the Referee, in
    the presence of both team’s captains (limit of six per team, all of whom must be uni-
    formed members of the Active List) shall toss a coin at the center of the field. Prior to
    the Referee’s toss, the call of “heads” or “tails” must be made by the captain of the vis-
    iting team, or by the captain designated by the Referee if there is no home team. The
    winner of the toss must choose one of two privileges, and the loser is given the other.
    The two privileges are:
    (a) The opportunity to receive the kickoff; or
    (b) The choice of goal his team will defend.

    Penalty: For failure to comply: Loss of coin-toss option for both halves and over-
    time, and loss of 15 yards from the spot of the kickoff for the first half only.


    For the second half, the captain who lost the pregame toss is to have the first choice of
    the two privileges listed in (a) or (b), unless one of the teams lost its first and second
    half options pursuant to 4-2-1. Immediately prior to the start of the second half, the cap-
    tains of both teams must inform the Referee of their respective choices.
    A captain’s first choice from any alternative privileges listed above is final and not subject
    to change.
  11. chris_in_sunnyvale

    chris_in_sunnyvale Rookie

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    I thought the clip he used to exemplify Moss' lack of hustle was ridiculous...

    How Jaws presented it:
    Faulk lines wide right with a LB in man coverage (drool!). Moss lines up inside him. Moss is supposed to run a skinny post to keep the safety on him, but instead runs a lazy crossing route with Sheldon Brown easily covering him, allowing the safety to get over to the right sideline and break up a bomb to Faulk who easily had a TD after blowing past the LB. If Moss ran his route better, the safety would have had to stay in the middle of the field and would have never broken up that pass to Faulk.

    What likely happened:
    Faulk probably was the #1 option on the play, but Moss was probably the #2 option. Jaws failed to mention Gaffney's role in this play. Gaffney ran a deep cross from the opposite side of the play, into the area where Faulk ended up. I believe it was he who drew the safety away from the middle of the field towards the right sideline. At the end of the play, Gaffney and Faulk were in the same vicinity so the safety following Gaffney was able to make the play on the ball to Faulk. Gaffney's drawing of the safety away from the middle of the field however opened up the entire middle of the field for Moss; I believe Gaffney was doing this on purpose to give Moss room to run as the #2 option on the play. Unfortunately, Sheldon Brown was molesting Moss the entire way and Moss couldn't shake free (good job on Brown's part, considering he didn't draw a flag), so Brady had to force a throw to Faulk in coverage.

    I will give Sean Salisbury credit, for when asked to respond to Jaws' comments, he brushed them aside and even mentioned Gaffney being too close to Faulk on that play.

    Regards,
    Chris
  12. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    Has anyone ever seen a game when Team A started the first with the ball and Team B didn't start the second half with the ball?

    Or, has anyone ever seen Team A elect to kick off and Team B has the ball to start the second half, as well?
  13. TeamPats

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    While I have no evidence to back me up on this. I do recall one instance a couple of years ago where the weather (wind) was so bad that they actually elected to choose their side at the start of the second half so they would have the wind going with them in the 4th quarter and ended up kicking off on both posessions. But again I couldn't possible tell you what game.
  14. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    You are correct, but I too cannot recall WHICH game it was.
  15. Pat the Pats Fan

    Pat the Pats Fan Rookie

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    Why didnt' they use their village idiot, Merrill Hoge.....
  16. captain stone

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    7) Wade sonofabum Phillips disgusts me. I despise that fatass, good ol' boy howdy-doody shtick. The cowpukes' owner/GM, HC, QB and WR are almost as hatable as the dolts' owner, GM, HC and QB. A pox on both their houses.
  17. SlipperyWhenWes

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    Nothin' wrong with D3 football there PF...

    Oh, and great points, as usual. I used to love deferring.
  18. SVN

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    but have you researched how the pats fare once they get the ball in the 2nd half. i havent but it seems they always end up doing nothing with the ball to start the 2nd half when they are in that situation.
  19. LaBrady

    LaBrady Rookie

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    I am not sure how accurate is Madden (the vide game) but there at the start of the game you have choices of: kick, recieve or choose which side (which defers the choice of kick or recieve to the other team). If one team chooses kick off the other team will kick off in the second half.
  20. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    Re: Not for nothing but.....

    Ken, you know I love ya, but Jaws said Moss "takes off plays" because, well...Moss TAKES OFF PLAYS. It's not a crime, he does on some level have to pace himself, but he also DOES do this and Jaws presented evidence to that effect.

    All receivers do, to some degree, and Moss is a culprit - we knew that coming in. He's better than in the past about it, but you can't just run it full out ALL THE TIME, and he also is human and gets frustrated and isn't the most mentally tough guy on the team. The overall package of Moss is clearly worth it, but I don't think Jaws was wrong to do the story he did, and I CERTAINLY don't think he was "forced" to.
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