Not enough is being made of Moss TDs 150 & 151

[Sicilian]

He is rewarded. He gets credit for a pass completion, and the more of those he throws, the more money he will make on his next contract.

So does the QB who throws a little behind the receiver. Though still complete, the receiver can't run after the catch because he has to break stride to come back to the ball a bit. So by your logic, that QB and the QB who precisely leads the receiver are equal, regardless of play result after completion?

 

[BradyFTW!]

He is rewarded. He gets credit for a pass completion, and the more of those he throws, the more money he will make on his next contract.

You're the one that made this a debate about statistics, so how about staying on topic. Good QBs lead their receivers, bad QBs slow them down, force them to catch behind themselves, or even turn them around. It's a completion either way, but it's also the difference between a decent QB and a good one. The reason why QBs are credited with YAC is because YAC usually has as much to do with the quality of the throw as it does with the WR's talent. CBs rarely suck so badly that they can't catch up to a receiver: major yards after the catch mean that the receiver never broke stride, which means that the ball was perfectly thrown.

By the same token, if a QB sees one WR running a comeback route 15 yards downfield, and another receiver with nobody in front of him 10 yards downfield, he shouldn't be credited with fewer yards for making a more difficult throw to a player who's likely to gain significantly more yards.

 

[Sicilian]

It's irrelevant whether the QB led the receiver or didnt.

But it clearly isn't.

A pass play goes 75 yards for a TD. Brady threw it 25 yards on a post to Moss in stride and he took it 50 more for the score.

If Brady had thrown that ball a little less, or slightly behind Moss, Moss has to slow down, change his body position, or make other adjustments that break his stride. Maybe he has to leap to grab it, which causes him to fall and get downed. That is a 25 yard play, because the QB wasn't that accurate.

On the flip side, Brady could throw the ball perfect, and Moss might bobble it slightly, costing him the half second he'd need to break past the safety. In that case, it's Moss' fault that there weren't more yards after the catch.

The relationship between the throw and the catch is intertwined when determining YAC, so there's absolutely no reason to not give credit to the QB for making a good throw which ALLOWS that YAC to happen.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Using that as a basis for determing yardage thrown and yardage ran is totally ridiculous.

Nobody does; that's the whole point. That's why the QB gets credited with the full yardage. You're the one proposing an arbitrary and unnecessary change. The system works great as is: it properly credits QBs who hit their receivers in stride, and doesn't require any guesswork at all.

 

[WhoaDirty]

I saw a graphic on TV last night showing Tomlinson being third overall in TDs with 154. It would be great to see Moss be well ahead of him by the end of the season.

 

[Sicilian]

What about this scenario?

Patriots have 1st and 10 at their own 2 yard line. Brady throws a 3 yard pass at the feet of Moss. Moss dives for the ball, makes a great catch and no one touches him, so he gets up and runs all the way to a touchdown. Should brady get credit for a 98 yard completion?

In that scenario, the Patriots are probably playing a scrimmage against a college team for some reason. I don't think those stats are counted officially I don't see any possible way a professional football team allowed a guy who has to dive at the 2 to make a catch to get up and run 98 yards.

But if your point was that there are scenarios in any stat keeping system that allow for someone to get credit for something they don't really deserve, I've got a surprise for you... there is NO way to remove that from professional sports. It's a pass play, it goes 98 yards, you give the guy who threw it credit for all of it, and the guy who caught it credit for all of it (AND he gets credit for YAC which is tracked separately).

 

[BradyFTW!]

What about this scenario?

Patriots have 1st and 10 at their own 2 yard line. Brady throws a 3 yard pass at the feet of Moss. Moss dives for the ball, makes a great catch and no one touches him, so he gets up and runs all the way to a touchdown. Should brady get credit for a 98 yard completion?

Now point out how frequently something like that actually happens. The next time someone dives, makes a catch, drags himself up, and runs 98 yards will probably be the first.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I am not proposing it, just suggesting that it would be more accurate that way.

way.

Suggest is a synonym for propose. They mean the same thing.

But it wouldn't be more accurate. It would be one of the most useless methods for evaluating quarterbacks ever devised; it would only suggest how vertically oriented the system that he played in was.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

This argument overQB stats is silly. Yardage is yardage, and nobody has earned the right to look at a play and divy up the credit between the QB and the receiver.

One of the fundamental tenents of the Bill Walsh offense and its successors is copious use quick strike relatively high percentage shorter pass plays that maximize yardage after the catch. A 30 yard catch and run is as good as a 30 yard catch and fall, every day of the week, and the timing and execution on either is equally critical.

//

OK, back on track...

Randy also has a punt return TD, so he has 152 career TDs in all, nipping on the heels of Tomlinson with 154, Emmit Smith with 175 is aways off, and Jerry Rice at 208 is, well, a long way off but who knows. 197 as a receiver is also crazy, but i can dream.

Anyway, 150 is a great accomplishment in itself.

 

[BradyFTW!]

This argument overQB stats is silly. Yardage is yardage, and nobody has earned the right to look at a play and divy up the credit between the QB and the receiver.

One of the fundamental tenents of the Bill Walsh offense and its successors is copious use quick strike relatively high percentage shorter pass plays that maximize yardage after the catch. A 30 yard catch and run is as good as a 30 yard catch and fall, every day of the week, and the timing and execution on either is equally critical.

//

OK, back on track...

Randy also has a punt return TD, so he has 152 career TDs in all, nipping on the heels of Tomlinson with 154, Emmit Smith with 175 is aways off, and Jerry Rice at 208 is, well, a long way off but who knows. 197 as a receiver is also crazy, but i can dream.

Anyway, 150 is a great accomplishment in itself.

Moss will overtake LT and Emmitt without a doubt, but I don't think he'll beat out Rice. I doubt he'd be willing to play into his 40s like Rice did.

 

[Yfz01]

This argument overQB stats is silly. Yardage is yardage, and nobody has earned the right to look at a play and divy up the credit between the QB and the receiver.

One of the fundamental tenents of the Bill Walsh offense and its successors is copious use quick strike relatively high percentage shorter pass plays that maximize yardage after the catch. A 30 yard catch and run is as good as a 30 yard catch and fall, every day of the week, and the timing and execution on either is equally critical.

//

OK, back on track...

Randy also has a punt return TD, so he has 152 career TDs in all, nipping on the heels of Tomlinson with 154, Emmit Smith with 175 is aways off, and Jerry Rice at 208 is, well, a long way off but who knows. 197 as a receiver is also crazy, but i can dream.

Anyway, 150 is a great accomplishment in itself.

Randy Moss has also thrown for two TDs and has that INT vs Denver!

151 receiving TDs
1 punt return TD
2 passing TDs
1 INT.

Awesome. If only he could get a rushing TD sometime this year! Or maybe they could do a reverse pass with him some time this season (I bet whoever he threw to would be WIDE OPEN)

 

[Yfz01]

This thread is about Randy Moss with #150 and 151, not the Patriots Superbowls, so please leave. Thanks buddy.

Anyways, I hope we see some unique plays with Randy Moss. Screen passes, Reverse w/and w/o pass, and other things to get him in space. He can make people miss and still has elite speed. Plus, I want to see more highlights like the 08' catches against the Cardinals and Broncos.

 

[Dragda]

Rice has 208 touchdowns... But Rice played so long that he was going to be cut in training camp by Denver his last year.

I don't think Moss is going to be the type that plays so long he is just a JAG receiver.

Rice still thinks he can play today

 

[BradyFTW!]

Brady throws a 2 yard pass, Moss runs 97 yards with it, and if you give both the Qb and the receiver credit for 99 yards, then it makes the play look like it was for 198 yards. 99 X 2 = 198.

:bricks:

Yes, a 99 yard pass is credited as 99 passing yards to the passer and 99 receiving yards to the receiver. I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make anymore, so I'll just let it be. You're rambling for no real purpose.

 

[Brady_2_Moss]

First - what's with the douchy Pizza Hut commercial every time I click the next page. I hope this isn't going to continue.

Second, I have followed Randy since his first day in the NFL. He had **** QBs until Tom. He has scored 50 TDs since being a patriot - FIFTY!!!!. Most WRs will never see 50 in their entire career, but yet so many of you call to trade him. If he has a bad game - "trade him". He hits 151 TDs - "well, it should be more" "he drops too many balls" "alligator arms" "He's lost a step" "He's a 1 trick pony" "afraid of the middle" "He's Tom's security blanket" "blah, blah, blah"

This site used to be a great place for educated football discussion, but it seems to be devolving into an average message board were everyone just makes ridiculous emotional comments. I've been a Pats fan for 5 years now and that's not going to change, the team is quality - something we don't have here in So. California. But I must say, that from what I've read on this board so far this season, I really wonder about the quality some of the "fans".

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

Even if Randy Moss has lost a step, I wonder what his 40 dash would be today. I'm thinking around a 4.40.

Also, Moss (IMHO) has 5 more years in him where he is capable of being a reliable receiver if he stays in good shape and works hard.

 

[Teenuh]

That is a boatload of career TDs, and if he stays here in NE somehow for the remainder of his career, catching Jerry Rice's career mark is a very tall task but not impossible.

congrats to an all-time great!

If you haven't noticed yet, Moss isn't liked by a lot of Pats fans for some weird reason. He could get like 6 TDs in the superbowl to win the game for us and they would be like, "eh, he could have had 7 TDs but he was too slow on one of the catches."

The Moss hate just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Even if Randy Moss has lost a step, I wonder what his 40 dash would be today. I'm thinking around a 4.40.

Also, Moss (IMHO) has 5 more years in him where he is capable of being a reliable receiver if he stays in good shape and works hard.

10 TDs a year for 5 more years (including this one) gets him up there...

 

[JMarr]

First - what's with the douchy Pizza Hut commercial every time I click the next page. I hope this isn't going to continue.

Second, I have followed Randy since his first day in the NFL. He had **** QBs until Tom. He has scored 50 TDs since being a patriot - FIFTY!!!!. Most WRs will never see 50 in their entire career, but yet so many of you call to trade him. If he has a bad game - "trade him". He hits 151 TDs - "well, it should be more" "he drops too many balls" "alligator arms" "He's lost a step" "He's a 1 trick pony" "afraid of the middle" "He's Tom's security blanket" "blah, blah, blah"

This site used to be a great place for educated football discussion, but it seems to be devolving into an average message board were everyone just makes ridiculous emotional comments. I've been a Pats fan for 5 years now and that's not going to change, the team is quality - something we don't have here in So. California. But I must say, that from what I've read on this board so far this season, I really wonder about the quality some of the "fans".

Feel free to go have fun on the ESPN boards if you don't like it here :rocker:

I agree with you that Moss is an amazing, once in a lifetime WR and that some people on this board

--have a dislike for him which cannot be explained

--have no clue as to what he means to this team and this offense and how his mere presence makes the opposing DC's job a nightmare

--don't fully realize how phenomenal his career accomplishments have been, mostly playing with JAG QBs

I also agree that it's puzzling that they apparently haven't started negotiations for a new contract.

But I think you are wrong in that Moss IS pretty much a one trick pony (nothing wrong with it--he's the best deep threat ever to play the game), and he IS NOT very effective going over the middle, or on slants anymore.

I think about a $10M one year contract plus a 1 to 2 year option of some sort would be reasonable at this point, and that Randy would take it.

 

[kveezy3]

If you haven't noticed yet, Moss isn't liked by a lot of Pats fans for some weird reason. He could get like 6 TDs in the superbowl to win the game for us and they would be like, "eh, he could have had 7 TDs but he was too slow on one of the catches."

The Moss hate just doesn't make any sense to me.

I think anyone that immensely talented but also carries a stigma of being "lazy" (whether deserved or not) will always be hated on. Wes Welker stopped running a route in a jets game that pretty much led to an interception and no one really talks about it.