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No salary cap in 2011??


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I'm still interested in hearing why the lack of a salary cap benefits the Patriots.

We all know that the Patrios consistently get the best players for the least amount of money, allowing them to stretch their salary cap dollars further than most other teams.

How does eliminating this advantage benefit the Patriots? How does giving the owner of a bad team the opportunity to "buy" a championship help the Patriots?

Currently bad personnell decisions can place a team in "Cap Hell" keeping them bad for many years. When bad teams no longer have Cap consequences for stupid signing and drafting (which can cost a team a ransom in cap space for a player with no NFL experience) how does that benefit the Patriots?

Sorry, I was asleep. I didn't realize I had to appear immediately to explain to you something as simple as this concept.

BB and Pioli are excellent judges of talent. With a salary cap, they've been really good at squeezing talent out of second tier people. Without a cap, why do you think they won't be able to do so with first tier people?

The Patriots are one of the richest franchises. Ergo, more money. Snyder will open his own bank account, and Jerry Jones will. But the Raiders don't have that much money. They don't make that much money. And they don't have the people to evaluate talent, so who's to say they don't break the bank signing someone Al Davis' ghost adores who in reality, sucks?

Just because there's no salary cap DOES NOT MEAN no limit. You can still only pay what you can afford. And I'm pretty sure no NFL player will take a credit card--even Al Davis' platinum Discover.

And besides--as I said, this is just a stick for poking. A new deal will get done. We might actually see one uncapped year, but I doubt it.
 
You might want to take a trip with the Ghost of Chirstmas Future before you wish too hard for an uncapped year.

Given a football system where every team has equal money to spend (or at least as much as the Cap constrains it) BB & Pioli's ability to maximize the value and talent on their team compared to the rest of the NFL is what has made them the dynasty they are.

Why are you so eager to see that end?

Meanwhile a team like the 49ers or Raiders who continuously finish near last place with high draft picks, and devote large chunks of their salary cap to those players, only to have them flop year after year, would finally be able to get out from under their dead cap space with the stroke of an owners checkbook once the salary cap is no more.

Why would you want to see that happen?

With an evening playing field I expect BB is consistently going to have the best team on the field.

Once the cap is gone any team that makes any costly personnel mistake can erase it with an owners credit card instead of having to live with the cap consequences.

You think this is good for the Patriots, why?

Easy. There are plenty of players that Belichick and Pioli would like to add to this team, but pass on because the cap makes it imprudent for them to sign them. They let players like Samuel go because eventhough they may love the guy, his asking price forces them to let him walk. Without a cap, we would be able to keep Samuel, Moss, Stallworth, Colvin, etc. with no problem.

The Washington Redskins have shown that spending big money on free agents doesn't guaranteee you a good team. You need great talent evaluation too. Even in baseball you got teams like the Orioles who have spent a ton of cash and still can't field a good team.

No cap will not change Belichick and Pioli from being great talent evaluators. It will just make it easier for them to compete for the players they want and allow them to go after virtually everyone they would target in free agency rather than just focusing on a handful of the guys they prioritized as the best fit. The best fit may not be who they think is the best player available, but the best value.
 
Given a football system where every team has equal money to spend (or at least as much as the Cap constrains it) BB & Pioli's ability to maximize the value and talent on their team compared to the rest of the NFL is what has made them the dynasty they are.

Why are you so eager to see that end?
First, forget Snyder. Money doesn't help if you continually pick players like you are building a fantasy team. We (fans) do that. Decision makers don't.

Then, tell me why you think that BB/SP will suddenly become ignorant about evaluating personnel if the cap goes away.

Why do you think they cannot evaluate good talent, only marginal talent?

Look at the draft. The draft has nothing to do with cap. You get to pick whichever player you want. The Pats have been masterful in Round One, evaluating top talent, much less so in later rounds.

So I think you have it exactly backwards. The Pats will do even better competing against other teams for good talent than they do now.

Think of Free Agency like the draft, except that only three teams get to pick all the top ten players, and one of the three teams is incompetent.
 
i didnt know this

and, owners are not required to maximize their revenues by, for example, selling naming rights to their stadiums. as a result, teams that do nothing to help themselves benefit from a cap on salaries that enables them to remain competitive. so, teams like the patriots get screwed coming and going. they aren't allowed to pay the higher salaries they can afford to pay and they have to face, as equals, teams like the bills and bengals that don't even try to increase their revenues. oh, and they also get to subsidize the colts and chargers so they can all be "competitive"

my own view is that after what's happened to the patriots in the last year and the way other teams and owners have piled on, they should lead the charge to opt out of the CBA and let the whiners fend for themselves.
 
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No cap will not change Belichick and Pioli from being great talent evaluators.

True

It will just make it easier for them to compete for the players they want and allow them to go after virtually everyone they would target in free agency rather than just focusing on a handful of the guys they prioritized as the best fit. The best fit may not be who they think is the best player available, but the best value.

My take on
http://www.nflpa.org/cba/cba_pdf/Article_XXI_Final_Eight_Plan.pdf
must be different than yours since I believe that the Final Eight will make it harder, not easier for the Patriots to compete for the players they want.
 
I believe that the Final Eight will make it harder, not easier for the Patriots to compete for the players they want.
Could be, but don't forget: no team with deep pockets need ever lose a player to free agency ever again. You want to keep Brady AND Seymour AND Samuel AND Wilfork AND Warren AND (name your high-priced, top-level player here), just pay him big bucks. The Rule of 8 will bring about the return of team continuity (at least for the Pats, Cowboys and Redskins).

But it is too complicated to know beforehand just who will benefit and who will be hurt.

It just seems hard for me to believe that teams like the Lions, Cards, Bengals, Texans, etc will suddenly replace the Pats, Colts, Steelers, Cowboys, etc are perennial powerhouses.

I think the smart teams with smart ownership and smart front offices will use the rules to the best advantage, whatever the rules are.
 
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Sorry, I was asleep. I didn't realize I had to appear immediately to explain to you something as simple as this concept.

BB and Pioli are excellent judges of talent. With a salary cap, they've been really good at squeezing talent out of second tier people. Without a cap, why do you think they won't be able to do so with first tier people?

The Patriots are one of the richest franchises. Ergo, more money. Snyder will open his own bank account, and Jerry Jones will. But the Raiders don't have that much money. They don't make that much money. And they don't have the people to evaluate talent, so who's to say they don't break the bank signing someone Al Davis' ghost adores who in reality, sucks?

Just because there's no salary cap DOES NOT MEAN no limit. You can still only pay what you can afford. And I'm pretty sure no NFL player will take a credit card--even Al Davis' platinum Discover.

And besides--as I said, this is just a stick for poking. A new deal will get done. We might actually see one uncapped year, but I doubt it.

Easy. There are plenty of players that Belichick and Pioli would like to add to this team, but pass on because the cap makes it imprudent for them to sign them. They let players like Samuel go because eventhough they may love the guy, his asking price forces them to let him walk. Without a cap, we would be able to keep Samuel, Moss, Stallworth, Colvin, etc. with no problem.

The Washington Redskins have shown that spending big money on free agents doesn't guaranteee you a good team. You need great talent evaluation too. Even in baseball you got teams like the Orioles who have spent a ton of cash and still can't field a good team.

No cap will not change Belichick and Pioli from being great talent evaluators. It will just make it easier for them to compete for the players they want and allow them to go after virtually everyone they would target in free agency rather than just focusing on a handful of the guys they prioritized as the best fit. The best fit may not be who they think is the best player available, but the best value.

First, forget Snyder. Money doesn't help if you continually pick players like you are building a fantasy team. We (fans) do that. Decision makers don't.

Then, tell me why you think that BB/SP will suddenly become ignorant about evaluating personnel if the cap goes away.

Why do you think they cannot evaluate good talent, only marginal talent?

Look at the draft. The draft has nothing to do with cap. You get to pick whichever player you want. The Pats have been masterful in Round One, evaluating top talent, much less so in later rounds.

So I think you have it exactly backwards. The Pats will do even better competing against other teams for good talent than they do now.

Think of Free Agency like the draft, except that only three teams get to pick all the top ten players, and one of the three teams is incompetent.

Where to start?

I guess we just have very different predictions for what would happen in the Wild West of an uncapped NFL.

As mentioned I think once uncapped, it stays uncapped. We're not talking about a one year aberration. Pandora ain't goin' back in that box.

So - unlike the current system that benefits the Patriots on a number of levels (getting more from less salary - compounded by the fact that bad teams have to overpay, relatively speaking to compete with the Pats for players) we hapilly trade that in for a system where a really bad team will probably not think twice about spending an OUTRAGEOUS amount of salary to attract nearly every great free agent in an attempt to buy a Lombardi?

I really don't see Bob Kraft going insane overnight and outspending every other team any more than I see the Patriots ability to judge talent failing - but I DO see some desparate (possibly sick and dying) owner mortgaging the next DECADE of profits in the chance of buying NFL greatness as well as the profits that come with it.

And I'm sorry, but did you really say that the "draft has nothing to do with the CAP"?????? Have you been following the draft lately? Do you see the amount of guaranteed money that guys who haven't played a down in the NFL get in the top 5 of the draft? Do you think that money doesn't count against the cap? Do you really think that doesn't KILL a team's cap space situation? Especially when those guys underperform? And you thinking letting them off the hook is GOOD for the Patriots why?

And knowing that Bob Kraft isn't going to go crazy and give away all his hard earned money (but other owners likely will) do you think players will turn down the most lucrative contracts the NFL has ever seen in its history just for the privelege of playing for BB and a reasonable salary?

And with all those players off the market alone, do you really expect the smaller pool of remaining good players somehow is to the advantage of the Patriots?

So all I can say is WOW - we sure do have different impressions of how the NFL currently works - and how it will work without a salary cap.

It most definately DOES NOT benefit the Patriots to allow other teams who have been stupid about their personnel decisions and cap management fully off the hook and give them free reign to over pay as much as they want to get the best available players.

Dan Snyder is a perfect example - he spent as much money as he could (within the constraints of the Salary cap of course) and when the players didn't pan out, that binge night of spending resulted in a cap headache that has hurt his team for years since. All you're advocating is the chance for Snyder and every other bad owner/GM to not suffer the cap consequences on the field anymore - just in the pocket book.

I much prefer the system as it stands right now that penalizes stupid organizations and rewards good ones like the Patriots.

But to each his own.
 
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Could be, but don't forget: no team with deep pockets need ever lose a player to free agency ever again.


Would they somehow be prohibited from taking the higher offers that other teams are likely to offer? If the uncapped year ends free agency I might be for it, but I don't think that's how it works.

In the chaos of an uncapped NFL however I expect MANY teams would outbid the Patriots in free agency to get Brady and other players. Call me crazy.
 
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I think an uncapped year will kill the NFL they wll end up with an NHL length of a work stoppage casue if they go uncapped they players will fight to keep it i that wayu so they can get the money they want.
 
Could be, but don't forget: no team with deep pockets need ever lose a player to free agency ever again. You want to keep Brady AND Seymour AND Samuel AND Wilfork AND Warren AND (name your high-priced, top-level player here), just pay him big bucks. The Rule of 8 will bring about the return of team continuity (at least for the Pats, Cowboys and Redskins).

Brady, Seymour, Wilfork, and Warren will not remain among the best players at their position forever. The pivotal question, IMO, is will it be easy or harder for a Final Eight to replace a great player. IMO, it will be harder.


But it is too complicated to know beforehand just who will benefit and who will be hurt.

And yet you said "The Pats will do even better competing against other teams for good talent than they do now." and
JoeSixPat's polite inquiry is quickly and rudely dismissed.
It just seems hard for me to believe that teams like the Lions, Cards, Bengals, Texans, etc will suddenly replace the Pats, Colts, Steelers, Cowboys, etc are perennial powerhouses.

Is anyone actually arguing this??

I think the smart teams with smart ownership and smart front offices will use the rules to the best advantage, whatever the rules are.

There is a reason why the Final Eight plan is in the CBA. Why do you think that it is?? IMO, to serve an incentive for successful teams to agree to extend the CBA. IMO, those who are arguing that an uncapped year will benefit the Patriots have to provide a reason for the Final Eight provision.
 
I'm still interested in hearing why the lack of a salary cap benefits the Patriots.

We all know that the Patrios consistently get the best players for the least amount of money, allowing them to stretch their salary cap dollars further than most other teams.

How does eliminating this advantage benefit the Patriots? How does giving the owner of a bad team the opportunity to "buy" a championship help the Patriots?

Currently bad personnell decisions can place a team in "Cap Hell" keeping them bad for many years. When bad teams no longer have Cap consequences for stupid signing and drafting (which can cost a team a ransom in cap space for a player with no NFL experience) how does that benefit the Patriots?

I agree. The best part of the Patriots is how much they can manipulate salaries and contracts to optimize their value while still being under the salary cap. If there is no salary cap, that advantage disappears also.

It'll benefit the Pats more than a lot of other teams, but I'm not so sure they'd be top of the heap every year.
 
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