Welcome to PatsFans.com

No Longer the Best and the Brightest?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Mrs.PatsFanInVa, Dec 7, 2010.

  1. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    41,799
    Likes Received:
    180
    Ratings:
    +367 / 11 / -27

    Teachers unions existed due to unreasonable working conditions, and even with contracts and federal regulations they are still held highly accountable.. to blame unions as a major problem in this debacle begs the issue.

    Every contract was negotiated by two parties, not just one.. and every teacher I have known has always done more than expected.. never met one who "worked to contract".....

    There are exceptions, but to blame union is an easy answer..
     
  2. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    13,102
    Likes Received:
    126
    Ratings:
    +253 / 3 / -4

    Is there a legitimate reason for tenure to exist?
     
  3. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    26,667
    Likes Received:
    143
    Ratings:
    +387 / 3 / -15

    Yes, having 15 weeks vacation is a burden not many would chose to take on!:rolleyes:
     
  4. Triple-T

    Triple-T Practice Squad Player

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    241
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    the national average expenditure per student in 2006-2007 according to the US census bureau was just over $10,000. That's $200k minimum for a great class size of 20 students. The issue is not money. It's how it is used.

    Empower the parents to spend that money where they want it and education will improve overnight. Give it to a bureaucrat/union and you get the US educational system.
     
  5. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    26,667
    Likes Received:
    143
    Ratings:
    +387 / 3 / -15

    Great post! Thanks!
     
  6. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2008
    Messages:
    5,894
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    Leaving things up to the states is a way of saying nothing will happen at all, or at least not in the next generation. It's a stall tactic and it's why politicos (not going to bother naming names, it's pretty obvious who) trot it out for every initiative they oppose and forget all about it for initiatives they support. Making dollar amounts equivalent (normalizing for varying costs of living across regions) is a good idea. Finally, one comment about money. Spending on up to date musical equipment, athletic equipment, computer equipment and books is important. So many public schools are shoddy and run down, and I believe this impacts students' sense of worth. Every high school in MA should have a pool, but the state champions pool (if I remember the WBUR story on it correctly) is a run down piece of crap, and it is supposed to be a historical building, or something. So yes, either funding increases or funding re-prioritization does help. It would also help to hire more qualified teachers if you can offer better pay. Right now, corporate pay is too good to pass up, especially in technology and science, even if you aren't doing anything useful other than helping rich people get richer.
     
  7. Stokes

    Stokes In the Starting Line-Up

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    Yes, I went to the site and looked at the historical data, for 2000, 2003, 2006, and 2009. The 2009 scores are:
    Science: 502
    Math: 487
    Reading: 500

    Here are the previous scores:
    Science: 489 (06), 491 (03), 499 (00)
    Math: 474 (06), 472 (03), 493 (00)
    Reading: 492 (06), 495 (03), 499 (00)

    None of these has gone down in the past 10 years, so I'd say there hasn't been any recent failure of our educational systems. Our relative ranks are about the same as well.

    One note I saw in the 2006 report, not sure if it is true of other years, but the US had a similar % in the top achievement group to Korea, who scores at the top of the lists. This means we may well still be the best and brightest, its just that there are more lower achievers here.
     
  8. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    26,667
    Likes Received:
    143
    Ratings:
    +387 / 3 / -15

    Schools are one area I'm more open to spending increases. But I think in the case of public education, we need to keep "first things first" and review it's structure.

    Since we agree that all students should have equal funding per student, the next step would be; "How can we accomplish that?"
     
  9. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    26,667
    Likes Received:
    143
    Ratings:
    +387 / 3 / -15

    Of course we have students who are among the best & brightest in the world! Who could ever believe otherwise?

    I think you're right on the money with your assessment as to why our AVERAGE scores are lower. I don't even think we should pay attention to what the scores are in other countries. Even if our scores were the highest, we should still be trying to improve our educational system.
     
  10. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2006
    Messages:
    5,742
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    I notice that something like 95% of China isn't even included in this comparison. Is it fair to say they outranked us when they don't count a huge percentage of their children, while I expect very close to 100% of our kids are included? How many of the nations on the list will actually send the police to the home if kids never go to school? I expect many do, but perhaps not all. I know that's the case in the USA.

    I'm reminded of an old internet chestnut that involved comparing High Schoolers in the US today to their counterparts in 1890. The 'facts' mentioned pointed to much better student achievement back then. However the creator failed to make a note of the fact that most all kids start High School nowadays and a good percentage of them finish it while in 1890 High School students were almost all future doctors, lawyers, scientists etc. Everyone else had dropped out and gotten a job by then.

    In the USA even the dumbest dummy in the world will be encouraged to attend school to age 18 and even beyond in some cases(if their last name happens to be Bush;) ) I'm curious if that's the case for every other nation on that list.
     
  11. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    15,889
    Likes Received:
    328
    Ratings:
    +559 / 9 / -5

    #24 Jersey

    From the cited article:

    About 5,100 15-year-olds in Shanghai were chosen as a representative cross-section of students in that city. In the United States, a similar number of students from across the country were selected as a representative sample for the test.
     
  12. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,576
    Likes Received:
    71
    Ratings:
    +224 / 0 / -4

    #75 Jersey

    "About 5,100 15-year-olds in Shanghai"

    vs.

    "a similar number of students from across the country"

    I imagine the scores in rural areas or China would be a little less impressive. The wealth discrepancies between the developed areas and the countryside are significant.

    http://www.instituteofideas.com/documents/Income%20Disparity%20in%20China.pdf
     
  13. apple strudel

    apple strudel Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2008
    Messages:
    5,894
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    They may be good at math but they suck at communism.
     
  14. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,576
    Likes Received:
    71
    Ratings:
    +224 / 0 / -4

    #75 Jersey

    Word.

    10 char
     
  15. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    41,799
    Likes Received:
    180
    Ratings:
    +367 / 11 / -27

    To the best of my knowledge tenure does not exist on the high school level, and only exists on the college/university level.. in this argument thought we were discussing high school/middle school.
     
  16. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,576
    Likes Received:
    71
    Ratings:
    +224 / 0 / -4

    #75 Jersey

    True, but how often are incompetent teachers let go?
     
  17. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    15,889
    Likes Received:
    328
    Ratings:
    +559 / 9 / -5

    #24 Jersey

    Tenure exists for all teachers covered by a union.

    About 80% of teachers have tenure. All states and the District of Columbia have tenure laws. The two major unions - the National Education Association and the American Federation of Teachers - negotiated these rules. The rules vary. However, most states require new teachers to go through a three-to five-year probation. Then they're tenured. Contracts may run to 100 pages.

    Unions Defend Bad Teachers' Tenure

    But where the tenure track for college professors can require a record of published research and probationary periods of up to 10 years, K-12 teachers can win tenure after working as little as two years in some states.

    Read more: A Brief History of Tenure - TIME
     
  18. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    26,667
    Likes Received:
    143
    Ratings:
    +387 / 3 / -15

    Also, countries like China and Russia historically have always tried to paint their countries in a false manner. They will show new cultural centers, sports complexes, housing developments all in an effort to show the world, "Look how good we're doing!" When the reality is far from what is shown.

    If a cross section of the entire United States is used, the only comparision in China would be the exact same methodology. China can NOT use one province and try to say it's a representation of China, because it's not.

    You're absolutely right, China MUST include students from poor, rural areas no matter what excuse they use.
     
  19. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    13,102
    Likes Received:
    126
    Ratings:
    +253 / 3 / -4

    Yes, K-12, absolutely. Maybe immuring the wrong term, but I under the clear impression that most public school teachers do benefit from tenure -- that after a year or two they qualify, and at that point they are extremely difficult to fire and seniority becomes a key determinant of promotion, pay, etc.
     
  20. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    40,210
    Likes Received:
    196
    Ratings:
    +667 / 2 / -9

    Face it America has been dumbed down and it is done on purpose, get back to the basics and get rid of all the social brainwashing bullsh!t, there are also a lot of "rotten parents" around today that could care less about their childrens education.

    :bricks:
     

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>