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Nice discussion of the rookies from Scout.com (public article)

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by JSn, Jun 25, 2009.

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  1. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    2005 was an aberration. They lost Bruschi for part of the season due to the stroke. They lost Ted Johnson, literally, the day that training camp was suppsoed to start. You can't lose your top starting ILBs and expect the team to be good.

    They lost the AFCCG because the referees insisted on calling PI against the Patriots and not against the Colts. Kelvin Hayden RAPED Reche Caldwell in the endzone on a catchable pass and nothing was called.

    As for the SB, if you are going to say that the Pats lost because of a particular unit, you have to blame the DBs. Meriweather and Samuel both had dropped interceptions. Also, Samuel blew the coverage on Tyree TWICE. Once leading to a TD and the other time was the catch that rodney couldn't get up to knock the ball away. But Tyree was Samuel's man initially and he was in man coverage.
     
  2. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    The Patriots lost to the Broncos in 05 due to a BS PI call and a call on the Bailey interception where Watson caught up to him and knocked the ball out of bounds.

    The Pats lost to the Colts in 06 because of the BS PI call against Hobbs and the non-call on Kelvin Hayden in the endzone.

    The Pats lost to the Giants in 08 for a variety of reasons. The O-line played terrible and the secondary couldn't hold onto the ball or cover a below average receiver named David Tyree. And finally, the referee not making the correct call when he should have ruled Manning down on the immaculate pass and catch to David Tyree.

    Your arguments suck just as badly. The Patriots also attempted to get Stewart Bradley 2 years ago, but couldn't find a partner to trade up with. You glossed over the much of the stuff that I mentioned as if its something MINOR when, in reality, its the crux of the situation. The Pats weren't able to find players that they felt met their criteria from 2004 through 2006. If you have issues with that, then come back and let everyone know when you are the HC of a team and are making the drafting decisions and tell us just how easy it is to find players to fit your system.
     
  3. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    I said the entire defense is the reason why the Pats haven't won a super bowl since '04.

    The problem with the 11-5 record is that 4 of their loses came from eventual playoff teams. In addition, it also helped the Pats to beat up on 9 teams who didn't make the playoffs. And if they had better LB's, they would've been able to stop that bull s*** offense. Even when they weren't in that offense, Pennington shredded the Pats by throwing right over the middle to Fasano and Camarillo. He completed 17 of 20 passes. Absolutely pathetic.

    Yes the LB's in '08 were slower than s***. Vrabel was an embarrassment, Bruschi is in denial, Mayo was fast and Thomas was fast. 2 out of the 4 starters were considered fast. When Thomas went out, Pierre Woods replaced him. Woods is slow. When Seau signed and played, he was slow. If Crable and Guyton start this season, they will be considered pretty fast as a group.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2009
  4. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    If the Pats had a better defense, they wouldn't have gone 10-6 and could have had a first round bye. The Pats put themselves in that position by not taking care of business in the regular season.

    Don't forget Ben Watson getting mauled on 3rd down, making the Pats punt and the Colts eventually driving down field for the game winning touchdown. But come on, they gave up 38 points! How do you not blame the defense.

    Exactly my point, the defense failed. The Pats offense carried them all season long with the defense going along for the ride. Majority of commentators and "NFL experts" were worried about the Pats defense. In fact, they would always say if teams can keep it close, the Pats defense would crack. I didn't believe at the time either, but after watching that horrific collapse on the Giant's last drive of the super bowl came back to haunt me.

    Funny how you tell me my argument sucks but then you go on with this, "but they attempted to get Stewart Bradley too years ago". Also you say they didn't find anybody to fit their criteria from 2004 through 2006. I thought they they wanted Bradley? What a joke. This is exactly my point, the Pats didn't do what was necessary to get the players they wanted. They obviously didn't want Bradley that badly or they would've found a way to trade up. I don't care what they tried to do, I only care what they have done.

    Fine, I'll let that one slide.

    Bad calls or not, they gave up 38 points and their LB's couldn't cover the f****** TE. I'm sorry, TE's!

    Yes, the entire defense blew it. I took my argument a step further in previous posts and said the entire defense is the reason why the Pats have failed to win a super bowl since '04.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2009
  5. State

    State In the Starting Line-Up

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    #70 Jersey

    I agree with this. I have to look at the level of competition between Chung (PAC 10) and Delmas, whom the stop watch hamburger bellies have fallen in love with like Robert Kraft once did with Tebucky Jones. What conference did Delmas play for, the MAC? No disrespect meant, but there's a gulf there.

    Chung's the real deal and to say he's a big drop-off from Delmas irks me.
     
  6. State

    State In the Starting Line-Up

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    #70 Jersey

    Again, I completely agree with this football genius. Vrabel had done very, very little for us, starting with the Giants SB debacle.

    Bruschi is our new senior citizen, the role filled by Seau. I have no confidence in Pierre Woods, though I do with his former classmate at scUM, Crable.

    Isn't Pierre Woods the guy who gave up the SB fumble recovery to a tiny RB? The guy has no heart. No eye of the tiger look in his eye for that to occur. Pathetic.

    He's forever banished from my positive perspective.

    LBers for the Pats are still the biggest issue: they're too slow. We've covered up some of that weakness--or tried to--by re-making the secondary to make that now a team strength.
     
  7. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Why didn't they have a better defense? Because Ted Johnson had to retire at the start of training camp and Bruschi had the stroke. When you lose all 3 of your starting ILBs (Roman Phifer had suffered an injury and was a free agent before signing with the Giants late in the season) your defense is going to have issues. And those are things you can't plan for.

    You do blame the defense. But before you throw out your BS about you knocking the whole defense again, you were focused on BB and the LBers. Also, since I pointed out that 7 of those points should have come off the board since Hobbs did NOT actually make contact with Wayne and faceguarding isn't a rule,

    Wrong. Your point had NOTHING to do with the entire defense. Your point was attacking BB for his lack of adding at LBer. And LBer wasn't an issue against the Giants. Lack of depth at CB, which forced an injured Hobbs to play against Burress and poor play by Samuel and the O-line cost the team the SB.

    What is a joke is how stupid you are insisting on being. It takes two teams to make a trade. They couldn't find a team to trade with that was ahead of the Eagles. You clearly don't understand what goes into completing a trade. Otherwise you wouldn't be spouting your garbage as if there was some validity to it.

    Also, Bradley was in the 2007 draft. So, my saying they couldn't find someone from 2004 through 2006 that met their criteria is valid.

    *LOL* How kind of you...


    It was ONE LB who couldn't cover the TEs. That was Eric Alexander. And the bad calls led directly to a 21 point differential (14 on the board for the Colts and 7 not on the board for the Pats). When the referees blow it that much, there is an issue with the officiating. I would have though someone like yourself would understand that. Clearly I was giving you too much credit.

    The problem with you taking it a step further is that you have gone totally away from the basis of your argument which was that BB doesn't seem to know how to draft LBers... So, which is it.. Does he not know how to draft LBers or does he not know how to draft DEFENSE. Either way, you are talking out your arse.
     
  8. State

    State In the Starting Line-Up

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    #70 Jersey

    Pierre Woods hasn't shown me squat. If you think he's a competent starter in this league, I think you're mistaken.

    Tully Banta-Cain is better material. Crable definitely has a future. Pierre sucks!
     
  9. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    So he hasn't "shown you squat." You aren't BB. You aren't Dean Pees. Their opinions are more important than yours.
     
  10. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    Don't forget their secondary was awful and they couldn't get after the QB. But we can save that for another argument.

    Every team gets bad calls against them, the Pats aren't the first to suffer from that. The Pats had the lead late in the game but let the Colts walk right down field and score the game winning touchdown.

    That's just the way it is. Teams get shafted from time time and the Pats got shafted. However, their defense had a chance to stop the Colts on their final drive and didn't. Too bad they had to settle with Alexander. Maybe they should have drafted somebody.

    Both, he hasn't done a good job replenishing the talent at LB and DB. This has caused him to use such a soft philosophy when it comes to defense. They use that bend, don't break defense for a reason, they don't have enough talent. Almost every defensive play had Samuel and Hobbs lining up about 5-10 yards off of the WR because they can't jam anybody. I'm actually glad both Hobbs, Samuel and Gay are gone because they too soft. In fact, Hobbs was notorious for falling down repeatability whenever trying to cover receivers and drawing pass interference penalties. I'm talking out of my a**? 0-4 since '04 and 0-2 on stopping game winning drives on the opposing team.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  11. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    That is why they offered more money to Greg Ellis and Jason Taylor. Also, they were rumored in trading for Derrick Burgess and Julius Peppers. If they were so excited about who they have, you wouldn't see them trying to get these guys.
     
  12. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    The secondary had 7 guys go down in the 1st five weeks of the season. Its kind of hard for the secondary to be great when you are having to play street free agents as starters.

    This is just you ignoring facts. The REALITY is that the Patriots defense had stopped the Colts on the two previous drives and the offense couldn't run enough time off the clock. But, lets just ignore that. You like to ignore relevant facts and change your stance. You've done so in this entire thread.


    More made up garbage on your part. Hobbs wasn't "notorious for falling down " repeatedly when covering receivers. BTW, Ty Law and Otis Smith used to line up 5-10 yards off people as well.

    One thing that you can't account for is injuries. There is only so much money and so many players you are allowed to have. That's reality. If you want to be dumb and think that BB has done such a horrible job, fine. Go root for the Raiders.

    Is BB perfect? Nope. But He's a damn site better than most, if not all, of the other coaches in the league.
     
  13. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    It always amazes me when people say this. One does not necessarily equate to the other. If there is good talent available, you try to add it to your team regardless of what you have. Did you ever stop to think that they wanted to add one of those four because they are better than REDD or Banta-Cain? Nope. You're dumb arse immediately assumes that they are trying to add them because they are better than Woods...
     
  14. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    And the Pats scored 27 points. What is your point? 27 points should be enough to win the game. The only change in my stance is that the entire defense failed. Big deal.

    NFL Videos: NFL GameDay: Super Bowl XLII highlights

    This is just one example. About 1:16 into the highlight, Hobbs falls down when he could've had an easy pick. Seriously, what the f*** was he doing on that play? However, Hobbs did get a gift from a wide open Steve Smith right after that. I'm just saying, Hobbs fell down like this a lot.

    Law and Smith did give cushions from time to time, but they were able to jam receivers as well. Samuel and Hobbs were 99.9% of the time off the line because when they did try to jam, they got abused.

    How come when somebody criticizes the Pats, people like you throw tantrums and suggest I should go be a "Raiders fan"?

    Your're right, I wouldn't take anybody over BB. I just think he could do better.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  15. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    Dude, anybody is better than Woods right now. Woods is pretty limited athletically and has been invisible when he's on the field. He gets one gift sack from Favre and people on this board thinks the guy can ball.
     
  16. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    It takes leather balls to lead your ST in tackles three years in a row. Pierre Woods has plenty of heart; whereas you certainly have a lack of a commodity called b-r-a-i-n-s.

    When you know what fast and slow is, maybe your posts would mean something. The new, rebuilt, LB corps ranges from extremely fast, Guyton, to merely fast, Woods. All the others are in between, except for oldtimer Tedy.:D
     
  17. MVPatsfan13

    MVPatsfan13 Practice Squad Player

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    I dont mean to interrupt the cat-fight, but the link that "what up bro" posted has an interesting part near the end.(i remember thinking amani pushed off on that catch)
    When its 3rd & 20 & about 15 secs left, Moss has a chance to catch the bomb that brady throws, IF HE JUMPED its almost certain he would have.
    Does anybody remember the clip from a game where just after Moss catches a TD, BB comes over to Moss in the bench area and tells him to "go up and get the ball"(mabye the bengals game?).
    If you watch the part Im talking about(6:39-6:42), Moss was trying to catch it in-stride, it looked like he didnt even extended his arms all the way. If he jumps, theres almost noway he doesnt come down with the ball. I dont remember if we had any TOs left and there were only about 10 secs left, but that all I can think of every time I watch the end of that game.
    I've noticed since hes been here that he doesnt really like to "layout" and hit the ground on catch attempts.
    OK, back to whos right...(a change in D coordinators can change how much press we do)
     
  18. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    I initially thought the same thing, but I don't think that push would have been enough for Hobbs to fall down.

    I was pretty pissed that Moss looked to give up on the play. You're right, had Moss jumped for the ball, it could have been a catch. In fact, there were times this season where Moss kind of lackadaisically throws up his arms and lets the ball go over his head. I'm not sure how many TO's they had left, but I thought they had 1.

    I've never seen it, but people on this board have suggested that before.

    I don't think changing coordinator's would make a difference because they only run the defense Bill tells them to run. I think it's more of a change in personal. I really think Bill got my memo and brought in corners that can actually press at the line of scrimmage on a regular basis. Samuel and Hobbs got annihilated whenever they tried to do this. Because of their inability to man up and jam receivers, I'm guessing Bill was forced to have his DB's play off a lot. With that said, I hope the days of playing that soft 5-10 yards off of the line of scrimmage and allowing teams to easily convert on 3rd and 5 are over. They need to go back to their Ty Law-Otis Smith/ Ty Law-Tyrone Poole days where they did a lot of jamming at the line mixed in with some zone. This is the kind of defense that has won them 3 super bowls in four years. Being able to have DB's that can man up and jam at the line really messes up the timing of opposing offenses. I haven't really seen this since Law, Smith, Poole and even Buckley left the team. Hopefully an improved secondary will allow an extra second for the QB to hold onto the ball, thus allowing whoever they have at LB to make a play.
     
  19. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    HUH? Only only change is that the entire defense failed? You went from claiming that BB couldn't seem to find linebackers to saying that he couldn't find LBs and DBs to being unable to draft defense at all. You might want to follow what you actually posted.



    People like yourself always go to the ONE play where he fell down. And ignore the fact he was playing with a sports hernia and a torn labrum. Its too bad that Samuel let the one go through his fingers and then also blew the coverage on Tyree twice. Both of those came before Hobbs was put in that no win situation.

    Also, Law and Smith regularly gave up 5-10 yard cushions. Go back and watch some of the Three Games to Glory DVDs...


    Because you haven't criticized anything. You've said BB downright sucks and hasn't managed the team well. You totally IGNORE the inordinate number of injuries that they suffered at times. And its not like those injuries were minor ones. We're talking catastrophic injuries. Ones that there is no stretching or conditioning that you can do to prevent.

    If anyone has thrown a tantrum, its you. Because, god forbid, you actually take into consideration all the facts or admit when you are wrong. Like you were with Bradley.

    I've criticized BB plenty. But there is a difference between criticizing him and ranting on and on about how terrible he is in regards to replenishing the defense.

    Please show me where I've said he couldn't do better. Everyone can always improve. But the reality is that there are forces and incidents that you just can not account for. You just do your best to mitigate them. And BB really has done a great job at that when you step back and look at it. He's put this team in position to win when it had no business being there. SB36 is a perfect example. 2005 is another one. With all the injuries they had on defense, who would have expected them to still make the play-offs. Look at last year. Their franchise QB goes down and they still put up 11 wins and just barely miss going to the play-offs.
     
  20. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    You're starting to confuse me. I'm going to make this simple for you. Because I think BB has not done a good job drafting LB/DB from 2001-2007, has caused them to eventually lose big games because of a lack of talent and depth at the position.

    Sorry dude, I told you it was just one example. Do you really expect me to go through every game and show you when exactly Hobbs has falls down? Healthy or not, Hobbs isn't a starting corner in the NFL. He gave up too many big plays and drew too many penalties at critical times. I'm glad he's gone.
    You're right, Samuel f***** up too, I'm not letting him off the hook either. He let a fourth string WR beat him for a touchdown which was pathetic. Also, Sanders and Samuel just watched Tyree when in fact they could have easily helped Harrison break up "the catch".

    Yes, you already said this. I know they gave up cushions but they were able to jam when it was called for. The new group of DB's consisting of Samuel, Hobbs, Gay and whoever else couldn't jam if their life depended on it.

    How am I wrong about Bradley? They had almost the entire third round to trade up for him but probably waited until it was too late. There were plenty of trade ups in that round. If the Pats wanted him that badly, they could've reached for him.

    Because I haven't criticized anything? You completely lost me there. I'm the one on a tantrum? I'm just having fun with this back and forth talk with you and whoever else wants to throw down about how the Pats have stud's at LB. I haven't called anybody on this message board names nor have I called anyone in the Pats front office names.

    I think BB could do better, while you are satisfied with BB. Why don't we just leave at that?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2009
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