Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by JSn, Jun 25, 2009.
Scout.com: Chung Is Good, But Not As Good As...
Nice long article/interview.
Then again, he has his quota of FAIL, too:
Because he only passed on White, you know, three times before the LOLphins drafted him. . . .
Wasn't that impressed. This guy seems to be one of those who thinks that a team's draft picks should be judged by how someone compares to the draftniks' ratings of where they "ought" to go (rather than having anything substantive to say about their particular talents and limitations). For example, he has very little to say about how good Sanchez is, but a lot to say about how (relatively) little the Jets had to pay to get him. But if Mangini really wants those players, why not?
Um, Mangini doesn't coach the Jets anymore.
Sub-par article at best, rehashing post-draft articles/analysis. Since we missed (passed?) on Pat White, Louis Delmas and Clay Matthews he feels the Patriots draft wasn't successful?
But Mangini traded with the Jets to bring players to the Browns in return for the pick which the Jets used on Sanchez ...
It's either they have confidence in these two or the Pats just don't get it when it comes to LB's. Nobody will ever know why the Pats continue to ignore the glaring need at LB with the exception of drafting Jerod Mayo and Shawn Crable in 2008. In fact, the Pats have only drafted a LB in the 1st and 3rd round once since BB took over.
I don't agree with this. First, not only is Chung bigger than Delmas, but he is a better hitter as well. Second, although Delmas might be a better cover guy than Chung, the Pats already have one of those in Merriweather. What the Pats desperately needed was a safety that can make plays with his hitting ability and the ability to play as a 8th guy in the box (think Bob Sanders). In the end, we will never know who the Pats would have taken if they had the choice between the two. However, because the Pats already have the "center fielder" in Merriweather, I'd take the hitter.
With Wilfork in the lineup, the Pats run defense was not that great last season allowing 106 yards per game. In 2007, teams wouldn't even attempt to run the football against the Pats because they were down by so much. However, their run defense was pretty solid in 2006 allowing only 94 yards per game. Lastly, in Wilfork's first year as a full time starter in 2005, the run defense really struggled until late into the season. In conclusion, the Pats run defense has been good consistently for 2 out of the last 4 seasons with Wilfork as a starting NT.
So this could mean one of two things. First, the Pats run defense has struggled because their LB's are really that slow and are unable to fill the gaps in time. Or, Wilfork and their entire D-line are overrated.
So what am I trying to say? I'm saying that if Brace is able to show anything that gives the Pats coaching staff confidence he can be a full time starter, Wilfork is gone. If there's a big time stud pass rushing LB available in FA in 2010, I would imagine the Pats finally addressing that.
What are Scott Wight's credentials and why should I give a sh*t about his analysis?
HAHA thats the second time i've seen people say Mangina is still with the Jets. We still hate the Rats , only now its Ryan.
I disagree with every point that you made. To say that the Patriots, ie Bill Belichick, doesn't know what he sees in LBs is laughable, as a proposition. I think no one is more realistic of what unvarnished reality is, regarding Football than Belichick. I subscribe to the Scout's opinion that we have not seen the real Woods or Crabel yet, and Belichick has.
IMHO, Chung is a better fit for this team than Delmas. Belichick's teams play situational football and adapt. You need smarts at certain Defensive positions principly LB, and Safety. You don't have that with Delmas, who has all the smarts of your basic Block of Granite. I doubt that he could diagnose the coming Offensive play, hide Defenses and switch on a moments notice, depending on what he sees in the few moments before a snap.:snob:
Why is it that you finally get a suitable backup for a position, that they were exposed for a long time, and suddenly the starter is being run out of town. Seymour and Warren have had suitable backups since Jarvis Greene showed up. It hardly meant they were fitted for a railroad job out of town. The team was merely getting deeper. Did it ever occur to you that there were often two rookies playing the run behind Wilfork in 2008? Do you think it just might have been possible that allowing all of 106 yards per game, were possibly the fault of rookie mistakes, and not chargeable to Wilfork?
Even leaving it out there as an option that Belichick "just doesn't get it" when it comes to linebackers might be the most idiotic thing I've ever read on this board. The guy got his start as a linebacker coach for a historically good defense that featured amazing linebackers, after which he became one of the best DC's the game has ever seen followed by one of the best HC's the game has ever seen. This past year, he drafted a LB who became the DROY. I'm going to out on a limb and say that he knows a little bit more about linebackers than you do.
This is precisely what ran through my mind when I read the comment as well, although I never left a comment because I like to respect everyone on the board and wasn't prepared at that time to do so since I thought the statement was utterly ridiculous. It's been more than well-publicized that BB doesn't like to take linebackers in the first round. What happened the one year that he did decide to do it? We got a DROY. How can anyone say the man doesn't know linebackers? This is the same guy that has coached the likes of Pepper Johnson, Mike Vrabel, Tedy Bruschi, and one LT (some of you may have heard of him).
Oh come on man, you're hurting my feelings . I'm just saying, it's kind of odd that BB can't seem to get any impact LB's over the course of his tenure as a coach. Even during their super bowl years, their LB's had to rely on smarts and BB's scheme to succeed. In fact, they weren't the most athletically gifted LB's in the NFL. The only exception was Willie McGinest when he was in his 20's. As of right now, they have Adalius Thomas, who is the most gifted of the bunch. However, most people would argue that he hasn't lived up to his hype.
I look at a team like Pittsburgh and have to admit that Dick LeBeau runs the 3-4 to perfection. Also, their front office is awesome when it comes to replacing key parts at certain positions. In particular, Pittsburgh never goes wrong when LB's need to be replaced. Just when you think their defense is going to take a step back, they don't. They lose Kendrell Bell (former rookie of the year), no problem. They lose Greg Llyod, no problem. They lose Lavon Kirkland, no problem. They lose Joey Porter, no problem. They lose Clark Haggans, no problem. Pittsburgh is a LB machine. I'm just saying, if New England ever get's athletically gifted LB's to complement the D-line will really show how good BB really is. It's just disappointing to see their stellar D-line go to waste with average LB's. However, having Mayo in the middle is a good start.
Sure, and he has only drafted 2 LB's in the first three rounds in almost ten years.
I love your guy's analysis and defense of BB, keep them coming!
Yea obviously bill has no clue how to draft linebackers. You must not remember Mayo droy last season. Obviously the guys bill didnt pick just werent good enough or not worth the risk.
Im with you on this one. Listen nobody is perfect but we have passed on plenty of good LBs and now we might I repeat 'might' have a problem. I just hate when people defend BB tooth and Nail. He is human he makes mistakes like everybody else. I also just want to point out that HBWU? never said BB, he said that Pats as a whole. Maybe Pitt scouts LB's better who knows. Mayo is a great start.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I for sure am not defending anyone tooth-and-nail. However, you all are talking about this perceived weakness at the LB position and how we've never had good LB's (not you personally), but our LB's were good enough to win for the last decade, no? Whenever there was a play needed defensively, was it not Bruschi making the key interception or fumble recovery? I seem to remember Vrabel creating havoc for Delhomme while catching touchdown passes in the same game.
Look, I kinda get the point he made about Pittsburgh. But at the same time, how many combined SB's did they win with all the great LB's he listed? They made it to the SB once in the 90's, in which they got trounced. In the end, SB's are what it's about, no? I don't think Dick, Bill, or any coach is trying to outdo one another in a "let's create the best LB corp." competition. It's about SB's and NE is the team widely regarded as the Team of the Decade, not the Steelers and all their great LB's. It's BB being considered the Coach of the Decade, not Tomlin, Cowher, or even Lebeau, the latter failing miserably when he had an opportunity to be a head coach. You mention that he didn't specifically name Belichick, and he didn't. But when you criticize the team for bad personnel moves in respect to the LB, and BB is the man who signs off on all the final moves since he was granted that power, then you are in a sense criticizing BB whether you mention his name or not.
Anyway, I'm not going to change anyone's mind and nobody is going to change mine. I don't think BB is made of gold and is infallible, but the man knows how to coach. He saw a LB that was worth a first-round choice and he went after him. Mayo could have easily been a bust, but it worked out. I'm sure if he saw another Mayo in this draft, he would have gotten him. As long as he's coaching and winning championships and I'm just watching the games on TV, I'm going to assume he knows more about football and his teams than I do. In my mind, he is the best coach in the game right now, and he is one of the greatest football minds that I've ever witnessed in my years of watching the sport. I respect everyone else's opinion, so you all are certainly entitled to believe what you all are saying. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around some of the criticisms. I think that's fair enough.
Wilfork is good, but he's no Ted Washington.
If Brace can get to starter level by next year, Wilfork isn't getting paid here.
The Pats only made the super bowl once in the 90's and got handled by the Green Bay Packers. Also, they only have one more super bowl win than the Steelers but have 4 appearances in this decade. Granted, the two Steelers super bowl wins came from the Pats getting eliminated by Denver in '05 and Tom Brady getting injured in '08. As good as Pittsburgh's defense was, there wasn't a chance that they would've beat the Pats with Tom Brady in the lineup.
It's not about creating the "best LB competition", I'm just pointing out that Pittsburgh does a great job of replacing key players and not missing a beat on defense. Also, they run the 3-4 defense the right way; killing QB's. I'm surprised that BB doesn't value LB's for a 3-4 defense because this is where your pressure comes from.
Here's a question for the BB defenders. If BB is such a genius, why is taking him so long to rebuild an average LB group?
Considering that he only started two years ago, and is putting the finishing touches on already, I'd say he was doing just fine. If Pitt is so good drafting, how come their O-line is falling apart, along with their D-line?
The Pats defense is heading in the right direction, but far from finishing touches. Sure their O-line sucks, but how is their D-line falling apart?
Because its really, really hard.
William Belichick made his mark coaching maybe the best 3-4 linebacking corps ever with the 1980's NY Giants teams. There were multiple HOF linebackers on those teams.
He then went on to win 3 Superbowl championships as a head coach, using mostly older or unheralded linebackers with the Patriots.
This past year, he selected the Defensive Rookie of the Year in Mayo.
Hey Bro = practice squad troll
What's your point? BB wasn't coaching them in the 90's. I made the 90's reference with the Steelers because that was when they had Lloyd and some of the other guys you mentioned. Again, this is not about defending BB. I thought I made that clear. I just don't know what you're expecting. When the LB corp was in it's prime, the Patriots won. He went and got Rosie Colvin one offseason, and he played well. He went and got AD one offseason, and he's played well. He was having a heck of a year before being injured last season. You mentioned in the initial post that none of those guys were athletic and only flourished because they were smart . . . well, I'll take a smart athlete over a pure athletic freak any day, wouldn't you? What more should he be doing? What would you do in his position?
This man has won SB's and is regarded by many, including other coaches, as the best in the game. You make it seem like anyone who points that out is just blindly defending the man. I assure you that I've criticized Belichick before, but hasn't he earned the respect of many for his moves? Seriously? If you know so much about building a LB corp, with all seriousness, maybe you should be on an NFL team's payroll in some capacity. Why keep the knowledge for forum banter. You should be using it to make financial gains. I don't know. Like I said, you are entitled to your opinion.
HBWU, I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from. I'm not trying to attack you or argue with you or any of that. I just have a hard time understanding your angle.
Though I won't engage in name-calling, I feel you on this. I'm really having a hard time understanding where he's coming from, as are many. In his mind, we're all just being BB defenders. I've tried to explain that I'm far from that, but I don't think he wants to believe it.
Might want to check the age and recent injuries for that D-line. All are at or around 30 with injuries. It's a window thing.
Besides can anyone really say that the vaunted Steelers defense would ever keep Brady and Co under 30 points? The Cardinals offense tooled them all over the field. Too bad the 30th ranked defense on a 9-7 team couldn't get it done.
LBs have been the lifeblood of the Pats' championship teams. They've got last year's DROY and a 3rd-rounder (Crable) from last year, as well as an undrafted guy (Woods) who's slated to start this year. If they can hold the fort with those two platooning, I think that says a lot about BB's coaching ability.
Add to that the rise of Mike Vrabel from career backup to starter on a SB champ, plus TBC's maturation from a 7th-round draft pick to starter, and it seems that NE knows how to handle LBs.
If Rosie hadn't had a freak injury and Adalius Thomas hadn't gotten nicked up the past couple of years, we might not be having this conversation.
Very well-written statement. Thanks for posting this. I believe I touched on this very thing in an earlier post as well.
I always find it amusing when people mention the "greatness" of Pittsburgh's 3-4 defense. Why? Because its a different system than what BB runs. Pittsburgh runs a less complicated version, known as the 1 GAP. BB and the Pats run a 2 Gap system.
Now, I also find it kinda funny that you mention Lloyd, Kirkland, Porter, Bell, and Haggans... Considering you are talking about a 12 year period of time and that some of the players you mentioned replaced the other players.
Lets review them.
Bell - Yeah, he won DROY and played a total of a bit more than 3 years in Pittsburgh... Then was banished to KC.
Haggans - Spent 4 years on the Steelers before getting his 1st start. And during 2005, he spent as much time on the bench as he did on the field.
Lloyd -The last year he was in Pitt was 1997...
Kirkland - The last year he was in Pittsburgh was 2000
Porter - Mr. Loudmouth himself...
The Patriots have said that its a lot harder for them to draft linebackers because they expect so much from them.
Why am I not surprised that you chime in and take shots at BB? No one said that BB was perfect. And while the Pats have "passed on plenty of good LBers", please share with everyone just how those LBers would have done under BB in the Pats 3-4 2 Gap Defensive Scheme.
The top starters for the Pittsburgh D-line all have at least 8 years experience. However, I like the addition of Ziggy Hood at DE. Pittsburgh will be looking at NT in the draft next year as well as DE again.
Separate names with a comma.