Nice column from Karen Gerugian

[363839]

Interesting perspective with a healthy dash of cynicism.

This is the first I've heard of Brady's arms being bigger this year.

Forgot the link:

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=1005682

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

There are some positives to take away from her thoughts. I believe she and others worry overmuch about the Samuel holdout:

The absence of the franchised Samuel didn’t seem to bother the players as much as last season’s holdout by Deion Branch, but ultimately, not having a shutdown corner or a reasonable facsimile, particularly after all the offseason moves that were made, will become an issue. Adding all the offensive weaponry is great, but what good is it if you can’t stop Peyton Manning, Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne when it counts? Will Ellis Hobbs and Chad Scott or Randall Gay measure up? For the Pats, that’s the ultimate worry.

For starters, Samuel is a big play CB, not a shutdown corner. Hobbs is much closer to being the shutdown corner than Samuel. If Gay plays up to 2004 standards then he and Scott will do just fine opposite Hobbs - they will be helped a great deal by Rodney and Geno getting back together in their "normal" roles, and working behind a front 7 of some renown. As long as Samuel is her greatest concern leading up to Training Camp, then I'd say this team is going to be just fine.

 

[glecco]

Adalius Thomas, whether he plays inside linebacker (where he was primarily located during camp) or on the edge, is going to be a difference-maker. Playing Thomas inside allows Mike Vrabel and Bruschi to go back to their natural positions outside. If his presence on the inside at camp was more about learning the system with its complex schemes, that’s fine, too, because he’s a beast on the outside.

Iteresting observation by Gerugian, don't ya think.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Iteresting observation by Gerugian, don't ya think.

I was thinking Reiss had written something similar, maybe I got him and Karen confused...if Adalius does start in TJ's old headknocker role, Tedy will be better for going back to his game and Vrabes outside alongside Ty Warren makes for a pretty potent left side. A healthy Tedy, with no cast, playing in his old Field General role is going to be fun.

 

[RayClay]

If Gay plays.

I've isolated the problem with this scenario.

If there is a less reliable "if" statement, I don't know it.

Based on how much Gay started aren't we projecting quite a bit here?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I've isolated the problem with this scenario.

If there is a less reliable "if" statement, I don't know it.

Based on how much Gay started aren't we projecting quite a bit here?

Projecting? The way you've been moaning the only CBs available to play this season are rookies Mike Richardson and Waju Anam. Until Gay is injured, or cut, he's in competition for playing time - live with it.

 

[RayClay]

Projecting? The way you've been moaning the only CBs available to play this season are rookies Mike Richardson and Waju Anam. Until Gay is injured, or cut, he's in competition for playing time - live with it.

Competition for playing time? Who disagreed with that?

We have a number 2 corner and a ? and Gay is one possibility to hopefully give us 2 #2 cornerbacks.

Don't listen to me, here's Albert Breers take:

Ellis Hobbs looked fine, but he was kept on the right, rather than manning Samuel’s spot on the left, and it’s scary how bad things could get in a hurry there.

"Tory James had issues keeping up with any of the receivers, and got his lunch eaten in a big way by Jabar Gaffney yesterday. Chad Scott and Randall Gay are guys who, even in good years, have had trouble staying on the field. After that, you’re looking at a bunch of guys who’d have trouble making any team. Bottom line, the Patriots DBs have been lit on fire by the Colts in three games over the last two years. That problem could get worse if Samuel sticks to his guns."

I don't necessarily agree with him, but at a position where we've been devastated by injuries I'd feel shaky ending the season with the present group and I'm really concerned beginning the season with it.

 

[RayClay]

There are some positives to take away from her thoughts. I believe she and others worry overmuch about the Samuel holdout: For starters, Samuel is a big play CB, not a shutdown corner. Hobbs is much closer to being the shutdown corner than Samuel. If Gay plays up to 2004 standards then he and Scott will do just fine opposite Hobbs - they will be helped a great deal by Rodney and Geno getting back together in their "normal" roles, and working behind a front 7 of some renown. As long as Samuel is her greatest concern leading up to Training Camp, then I'd say this team is going to be just fine.

Those "best case" scenarios seldom work out.

Remember when TBC was playing just like Mcginest last year?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Competition for playing time? Who disagreed with that?

We have a number 2 corner and a ? and Gay is one possibility to hopefully give us 2 #2 cornerbacks.

Don't listen to me, here's Albert Breers take:

Ellis Hobbs looked fine, but he was kept on the right, rather than manning Samuel’s spot on the left, and it’s scary how bad things could get in a hurry there.

"Tory James had issues keeping up with any of the receivers, and got his lunch eaten in a big way by Jabar Gaffney yesterday. Chad Scott and Randall Gay are guys who, even in good years, have had trouble staying on the field. After that, you’re looking at a bunch of guys who’d have trouble making any team. Bottom line, the Patriots DBs have been lit on fire by the Colts in three games over the last two years. That problem could get worse if Samuel sticks to his guns."

I don't necessarily agree with him, but at a position where we've been devastated by injuries I'd feel shaky ending the season with the present group and I'm really concerned beginning the season with it.

Mini-Camp, Mini-Camp, Mini-Camp, Mini-Camp.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Those "best case" scenarios seldom work out.

Remember when TBC was playing just like Mcginest last year?

No, I don't "remember when TBC was playing just like McGinest last year," and neither do you unless you're hallucinating. But feel free to quit moaning over Mini-Camp and go find the post where I said he was.

 

[RayClay]

No, I don't "remember when TBC was playing just like McGinest last year," and neither do you unless you're hallucinating. But feel free to quit moaning over Mini-Camp and go find the post where I said he was.

Why do you keep saying it's mini camp?

Are you saying players we have now will inexplicably turn into #1 cornerbacks during the season?

I couldn't care less about mini camp, I'm talking about our talent at cornerback and what's left if Samuel leaves. Obviously we could acquire a top talent at CB, but that's unlikely this time of year, no?

Apparently we lost about two months worth of archives, but since I quit all substances years ago I do enjoy the occasional flashback and I certainly remember you expressing satisfaction that the OLB job was settled thanks to TBC.

 

[zippo59]

I don't see why people fixate so much on this idea of a "shut down corner." It is a myth in itself, but the Patriots don't need a "shut down corner" or whatever to have an excellent defense. Obviously it doesn't hurt, but as long as we have good safeties this defense only needs decent corners. Notice, how we stopped the Colts in 2004 when we had healthy safeties but injured cornerbacks, yet we could not stop them in 2007 when we had healthy cornerbacks but injured safeties.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Why do you keep saying it's mini camp?

Are you saying players we have now will inexplicably turn into #1 cornerbacks during the season?

I couldn't care less about mini camp, I'm talking about our talent at cornerback and what's left if Samuel leaves. Obviously we could acquire a top talent at CB, but that's unlikely this time of year, no?

Apparently we lost about two months worth of archives, but since I quit all substances years ago I do enjoy the occasional flashback and I certainly remember you expressing satisfaction that the OLB job was settled thanks to TBC.

It's MINI_CAMP, oh football guru, because Breer's remarks about James or any other player doesn't mean squat practicing in gym shorts. Nobody is in pads, nobody is blitzing, nobody is jamming, very few players are going full speed.

So what is left at CB if Samuel leaves Ray? Until a player is injured he's available to play. Until Asante Samuel started the season at CB in 2005, he was a nickelback injury replacement in 2004. Until Ellis Hobbs replaced Duane Starks, he was a rookie injury replacement in 2005. You don't know who is going on IR, you don't know who is going to step up this season. The Belichick Patriots have been in the playoff hunt since 2001 - they lost a tiebreaker in 2002 so that still counts - they'll be in the hunt this year Samuel or no Samuel.

Yes, I said TBC played well enough last season, he wasn't perfect and I sure as heck didn't compare him to Willie McGinest. But you've already had your whine about the linebacker corps, since they are old and worthless, or scrubs and late round rookies, it doesn't matter whether TBC is here or not does it? RayClay has spoken, the Pats season is over in June, give the AFCE crown to Miami and the Lombardi Trophy to Arizona.

 

[RayClay]

It's MINI_CAMP, oh football guru, because Breer's remarks about James or any other player doesn't mean squat practicing in gym shorts. Nobody is in pads, nobody is blitzing, nobody is jamming, very few players are going full speed.

So what is left at CB if Samuel leaves Ray? Until a player is injured he's available to play. Until Asante Samuel started the season at CB in 2005, he was a nickelback injury replacement in 2004. Until Ellis Hobbs replaced Duane Starks, he was a rookie injury replacement in 2005. You don't know who is going on IR, you don't know who is going to step up this season. The Belichick Patriots have been in the playoff hunt since 2001 - they lost a tiebreaker in 2002 so that still counts - they'll be in the hunt this year Samuel or no Samuel.

Yes, I said TBC played well enough last season, he wasn't perfect and I sure as heck didn't compare him to Willie McGinest. But you've already had your whine about the linebacker corps, since they are old and worthless, or scrubs and late round rookies, it doesn't matter whether TBC is here or not does it? RayClay has spoken, the Pats season is over in June, give the AFCE crown to Miami and the Lombardi Trophy to Arizona.

Actually, i think they're looking good and i have faith in BB patching together less than top notch talent in the secondary, he's done it at least twice that i can recall.

However, Samuel is their best cornerback and the rest of the talent there is borderline starters at best.

I love your gloomy, whiny scenarios, they're very amusing.

I'm really enthused about our safeties, but that doesn't fit into your doom and gloom profile you've fitted me for.

I could only talk about how wonderful our defensive line is if that makes you feel better. I prefer to talk about things that need improving IMO, if that's OK.

 

[PatsFan37]

The Patriots have lost with patchwork LB's, patchwork DL, and patchwork WR's. They won with patchwork RB's, patchwork OL, and a badly frayed patchwork secondary. (I realize I've beaten that patchwork cliche to a pulp -- please someone add it to the cliche thread.)

With the team currently looking at Harrison, Wilson, Sanders, Hawkins, Scott, Hobbs, Gay, and Meriweather in the secondary, they are talented at safety, decent at corner, and deep at both. With Samuel, who must show up by the playoffs, the team will be talented AND deep.

Hobbs had one heluva playoff run and he's the right guy to have in your foxhole. For a one-handed corner, he played pretty well last year. Next to my namesake Harrison, he's of my favorite players.

What more could you ask for? A contract for Samuel? Sure, but it's not necessary to win.

 

[patsox23]

Am I the only person who thought this was an amateurish "what I did on my summer vacation"-ish camp re-hash? Just lame, fan-girl - and I have no problem with women in this job, I just think they should be - whoever the "they" is - GOOD AT IT.

 

[desi-patsfan]

i really wonder if anyone would call Asante a shut-down corner if he wasnt holding out. If he was coming into Pats camp nice and happy, would he just be another nice CB in the NFL?

 

[PatsFan37]

i really wonder if anyone would call Asante a shut-down corner if he wasnt holding out. If he was coming into Pats camp nice and happy, would he just be another nice CB in the NFL?

He'd still get a lot of press and deservedly after ten interceptions. The question is whether he'd get that much press if he wasn't in his free agent year, regardless of whether he was holding out. The $7.8 million franchise tag helps make him press-worthy.

I still think Hobbs has the speed and agility to be a better corner. With another year of NFL experience, a full training camp and playing with both hands AND with QB's not wanting to throw in Samuel's direction, Hobbs may get more interceptions in 2007 than Samuel.

More than anything else, that's what Samuel should fear.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

the Pats season is over in June, give the AFCE crown to Miami and the Lombardi Trophy to Arizona.

Has Water Boy hacked into Box's account???

Me, I say it's mini-camp and let's see how the CBs play out in July/Aug.

 

[RayClay]

The Patriots have lost with patchwork LB's, patchwork DL, and patchwork WR's. They won with patchwork RB's, patchwork OL, and a badly frayed patchwork secondary. (I realize I've beaten that patchwork cliche to a pulp -- please someone add it to the cliche thread.)

With the team currently looking at Harrison, Wilson, Sanders, Hawkins, Scott, Hobbs, Gay, and Meriweather in the secondary, they are talented at safety, decent at corner, and deep at both. With Samuel, who must show up by the playoffs, the team will be talented AND deep.

Hobbs had one heluva playoff run and he's the right guy to have in your foxhole. For a one-handed corner, he played pretty well last year. Next to my namesake Harrison, he's of my favorite players.

What more could you ask for? A contract for Samuel? Sure, but it's not necessary to win.

I agree with this and I think Samuel plays at least a year, (what are his options?)

Having said that, take a deep, but not outstanding group of cornerbacks and take out the unquestionable top starter, (IMO). That's a possible weak link that some of us horrible doom and gloomers kept arguing about at LB depth last year.

In my opinion, Hobbs is a gutsy aggressive player who might or might not make it as a full time starter in this league. He'll certainly have a long career
as a nickle back and depth worst case.

If we lose our top guy, honestly tell me, did we have a cornerback threatening to win a starters job last year? No, we didn't. Our next option was the veteran Scott who is best used for big receivers or safety insurance.

If we lose Samuel, we will be scrambling to find a starter. Scrambling is not a good word when your talking personnel decisions.