NFP: Specialized Position Rankings

[Box_O_Rocks]

NFP's Wes Bunting with his assessment of positions like 3-4 DE, NT, OLB, etc.

The National Football Post | NFP Specialized Position Rankings

Five-Technique Defensive Ends (3-4 Defensive Ends)
1. Jarron Gilbert, San Jose State (6-5, 287)
2. Tyson Jackson, LSU (6-4, 295)
3. Kyle Moore, USC (6-5, 265)
4. Zach Potter, Nebraska (6-7, 277)
5. Jeremy Navarre, Maryland (6-3, 285)

Sleeper: Everette Pedescleaux, Northern Iowa (6-6, 305)

3-4 Outside Linebackers
1. Everette Brown, Florida State (6-4, 252)
2. Aaron Maybin, Penn State (6-4, 248)
3. Clay Matthews, USC (6-3, 246)
4. Larry English, Northern Illinois (6-2, 254)
5. Clint Sintim, Virginia (6-3, 249)

There is some good stuff in the comments too.

 

[mayoclinic]

Interesting that they have Sammie Lee Hill from Stillman listed as the #4 3-4 DT. I have him as one of my sleeper picks for the Pats, but with a weak DT class he could go higher than expected. He's very quick and athletic for a 330# guy and has played basketball, TE and DE in addition to DT. I could see him backing up Wilfork and also getting some reps at DE.

Kyle Moore at 265# seems way too light for 3-4 DE. Interesting that they have Matthews ahead of English and Sintim. If Maybin is actually 248# at the combine and shows well, his stock will soar.

I like Devin Moore, James Casey and Mike Thomas a lot.

 

[jays52]

NFP is a great database. The key question is what does Wes Bunting know about football? Not to be offensive, but football writers who have played a down outside of highschool are few and far between. Sure, stats in certain drills (IE, cone) can be used to find trends, but unless the writer has played, their opinion is in my mind close to useless. That is with the exception of our own brilliant Moderatrix who has identified a pattern and educated many people (especially myself) on the drafting tendencies of our HC. Brown has shown me nothing other than linear speed, three moves and every tool necessary for a check-2 43 end. Brown doesn't have the agility, footspeed, handwork, nor the awareness to play 34 OLB in a 2-gap scheme. Watch him play, he screams 43 DE.

Pardon the hyperbole, but sportswriters such as Bunting seldom know anything about the art of technique and instead tend to focus on measurables. It is what it is, and as someone who understands the game, I disagree in almost every capacity with Bunting's list.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

NFP is a great database. The key question is what does Wes Bunting know about football? Not to be offensive, but football writers who have played a down outside of highschool are few and far between. Sure, stats in certain drills (IE, cone) can be used to find trends, but unless the writer has played, their opinion is in my mind close to useless. That is with the exception of our own brilliant Moderatrix who has identified a pattern and educated many people (especially myself) on the drafting tendencies of our HC. Brown has shown me nothing other than linear speed, three moves and every tool necessary for a check-2 43 end. Brown doesn't have the agility, footspeed, handwork, nor the awareness to play 34 OLB in a 2-gap scheme. Watch him play, he screams 43 DE.

Pardon the hyperbole, but sportswriters such as Bunting seldom know anything about the art of technique and instead tend to focus on measurables. It is what it is, and as someone who understands the game, I disagree in almost every capacity with Bunting's list.

I haven't watched much of Brown, but he wasn't my idea of a 3-4 OLB...though I use NE's OLBs as my template and Bunting may be considering Ev Brown in light of the Ware/Merriman rush LB template. As far as his background, he discusses a bit of it in the comments - more power to him for getting a paycheck for his passion.

 

[dryheat44]

NFP's Wes Bunting with his assessment of positions like 3-4 DE, NT, OLB, etc.

The National Football Post | NFP Specialized Position RankingsThere is some good stuff in the comments too.

Seems to me the Jackson is the only one listed with the preferred size to play the end every down. Jarvis Green is the lightest guy at abou 285, but the rest of the DEs are in the 295-310 range. I'm not sure that Gilbert is the one to break the mold, and I don't think pass-rushing end is a particular first day target on this team.

 

[patchick]

NFP is a great database. The key question is what does Wes Bunting know about football? Not to be offensive, but football writers who have played a down outside of highschool are few and far between. Sure, stats in certain drills (IE, cone) can be used to find trends, but unless the writer has played, their opinion is in my mind close to useless. That is with the exception of our own brilliant Moderatrix who has identified a pattern and educated many people (especially myself) on the drafting tendencies of our HC.

...

It is what it is, and as someone who understands the game, I disagree in almost every capacity with Bunting's list.

I hear what you're saying (and thanks for the kind words, as I obviously never made it as far as Pop Warner!) But I really don't think playing experience is is a good way to measure football knowledge. Look at a guy like Bert Breer who would be crushed like a bug on a football field, but has devoted himself to studying the game, taken courses intended for future coaches, etc. Or more to the point, look at the Patriots' coaching and personnel staff, which is packed with DIII washouts.

FWIW, here's Bunting's own self-report:

"I could never figure out why NFL teams had so much trouble figuring out which player would succeeded and which ones wouldn’t, so I became obsessed in finding out. I have studied and worked under and with a lot of former NFL personnel guys and scouts and been to a couple NFL training camps working with Personnel groups. All in an effort to learn and develop the craft I guess."

 

[mayoclinic]

I really don't think playing experience is is a good way to measure football knowledge. Look at a guy like Bert Breer who would be crushed like a bug on a football field, but has devoted himself to studying the game, taken courses intended for future coaches, etc. Or more to the point, look at the Patriots' coaching and personnel staff, which is packed with DIII washouts.

Not to mention one Bill Belichick, whose playing experience was limited to some center and tightend (in addition to lacrosse and squash) for that well-known football power, Wesleyan. Doesn't seem to have limited him that much.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Seems to me the Jackson is the only one listed with the preferred size to play the end every down. Jarvis Green is the lightest guy at abou 285, but the rest of the DEs are in the 295-310 range. I'm not sure that Gilbert is the one to break the mold, and I don't think pass-rushing end is a particular first day target on this team.

Yup, Tyson and Pedescleaux are the only ones Bunting listed who most closely fit the weight of 'my' profile for a NE 3-4 DE, but Gilbert and Potter both have the frames and the base strength to fill out the rest of the way. I can't speak for Navarre yet, I'll have to watch my recording of Maryland's Bowl game and see if he played and how he looked. Moore has never done anything for me and his Senior Bowl was uninspiring.

When assessing the potential of a DL for NE's defense I look first at their ability to anchor the point of attack against the run. I next look at their ability to sift through trash. Finally, I look at their pass rush; collapse the pocket √, get their arms up quickly in the throwing lane √, pressure the QB √, sack the little devil √, read/disrupt screens √. I also try to look at these kids and see under the pads as it were, to guesstimate whether their listed weight/height fits comparibly sized fellows on the field, for example: my report on Utah's Newman looking burlier than Kruger, though Kruger is listed as the heavier fellow. Newman did well enough playing inside to have me track his Pro-Day measurables (assuming Gil reports them). Caldwell's reputation as a Center is sufficient to give Newman's play some standard against which to evaluate.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Not to mention one Bill Belichick, whose playing experience was limited to some center and tightend (in addition to lacrosse and squash) for that well-known football power, Wesleyan. Doesn't seem to have limited him that much.

Odd, I have a vague memory of patchick mentioning her Center days at Wesleyan... The mind boggles!

 

[patchick]

Odd, I have a vague memory of patchick mentioning her Center days at Wesleyan... The mind boggles!

You betcha. They really wanted me on the team, but then I learned that the games would be played outdoors. And in the winter! Barbaric. I'm still hopeful that the ole' Wesleyan pipeline will land me on the Pats' staff yet, though. I'll be the one to tally random columns of stats and pretend to understand Ernie Adams.

Pointless factoid: Mr. Patchick went to college with Bill O'Brien, just as I did with Eric Mangini. I hope this does not bode ill.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

You betcha. They really wanted me on the team, but then I learned that the games would be played outdoors. And in the winter! Barbaric. I'm still hopeful that the ole' Wesleyan pipeline will land me on the Pats' staff yet, though. I'll be the one to tally random columns of stats and pretend to understand Ernie Adams.

Pointless factoid: Mr. Patchick went to college with Bill O'Brien, just as I did with Eric Mangini. I hope this does not bode ill.

As long as you're not poaching any staff and players...

 

[VJCPatriot]

You betcha. They really wanted me on the team, but then I learned that the games would be played outdoors. And in the winter! Barbaric. I'm still hopeful that the ole' Wesleyan pipeline will land me on the Pats' staff yet, though. I'll be the one to tally random columns of stats and pretend to understand Ernie Adams.

Pointless factoid: Mr. Patchick went to college with Bill O'Brien, just as I did with Eric Mangini. I hope this does not bode ill.

You went to college with Eric Mangini? Ewww, mangina cooties!!! You need to call him up sometime and mysteriously proclaim, "Et tu Brute?" Then just hang up. It'll be fun! You know you want to!

 

[Clonamery]

You went to college with Eric Mangini? Ewww, mangina cooties!!! You need to call him up sometime and mysteriously proclaim, "Et tu Brute?" Then just hang up. It'll be fun! You know you want to!

He won't answer the phone. In fact I hear he sits in a locked room with the lights off, rolling steel marbles in his hand and mumbling something about strawberries and backstabbers.

 

[Seneschal2]

3-4 Outside Linebackers
1. Everette Brown, Florida State (6-4, 252)
2. Aaron Maybin, Penn State (6-4, 248)
3. Clay Matthews, USC (6-3, 246)
4. Larry English, Northern Illinois (6-2, 254)
5. Clint Sintim, Virginia (6-3, 249)

According to our own BB, OLBs translate to ILB in the Pats system. If we're looking for pass rushers, start with the DE crop, and focus on those who may have some LB experience, or those who can project to handling LB responsibilities (coverage, etc.). These players are what we call the DE/OLB prospects -- not strictly OLBs.

Sintim, IMO, is the most versatile of those listed, having the skills to play in or out. I like Matthews, but can he play inside for the Pats? English is being noted for his edge rushing skills...but can he play inside, and is he strong enough at the POA on the edge?

Pardon the hyperbole, but sportswriters such as Bunting seldom know anything about the art of technique and instead tend to focus on measurables. It is what it is, and as someone who understands the game, I disagree in almost every capacity with Bunting's list.

Having your own opinion is crucial in these forums, as it is in the draft world w/ experts & gurus. There isn't a wrong or right w/ opinions per say, just that some are more informed or knowledgeable than others. That said, Bunting has sound reasoning and adequate knowledge behind most of his analysis, even if I disagree with some of his opinions. And as we know, the draft is hit or miss in general, and allows slack for such errors in judgment. Rule of thumb for myself is to see as many prospects as possible in game situations (not highlights), and for those I'm unable to see, rely on the consensus opinions of MANY so called experts, rather than ONLY one expert.

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I took the course last summer to further gain knowledge of NFL scouting and the techniques and nuances used in everyday scouting. I was lucky enough to learn and work under Marc Trestman and Russ Lande who both taught a ride array of scouting techniques that I still use today. They both had different viewpoints on positions and the way they should be played, so there differences taught me how to make my own judgments. Since the course I have worked for a variety of NFL draft companies as a scout and writer. NFLSMACKDOWN.com, NFLDRAFTSCOUT.com, SCOUT.com, TFYDRAFT.com, FOOTBALLOUTSIDERS.com and have had my work published for each site. I have also made several radio appearances as well.
Wes Bunting
Lancaster, PA