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NFLPA wants inquiry on Welker deal?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by NE39, Mar 13, 2007.

  1. NE39

    NE39 Rookie

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    Doesn't sound like it will amount to much, but it is interesting:

    LINK
  2. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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  3. ChoWZa

    ChoWZa Rookie

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    I guess the agent's point of view was, if the Patriots made an offer they(the fins) would have had to make an offer substantial enough the Dolphins would not have matched and this whole process was averted. Also I don't understand why people say "4 games in Miami and entire contract is guaranteed" The Patriots play the dolphins twice in the regular season and if they played again in the playoffs and the SB was held in Miami.. yeah.. anyway.

    But if the Patriots made an offer it 'could' have included the "poison pill" which Miami cannot match anyway, which has been deemed legal.

    I don't think the agent has much ground here.

    Welker/Teams are happy. Move on.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2007
  4. hwc

    hwc Rookie

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    It's not Welker's agent. It the players union, the NFL Agents Association, looking to accuse the owners of collusion for NOT using poison pill contracts. Their position is that the owners all agreed not to use poison pills -- collusion. The Welker deal is their best vehicle for stirring it up, because the media reported an offersheet that was never signed.

    Welker's happy with the deal. The Pats are happy with the deal. The Fins are happy with the deal. This is just a sideshow that doesn't have much to do with the deal itself. It's political.
  5. Sorna

    Sorna Rookie

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    Read again:

    Sounds like Welker's agent is the one not happy.
  6. solman

    solman Rookie

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    NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

    Thus spake Harvey Fialkov South Florida Sun-Sentinel

    The article says that Welker's agent has complained that Welker trade violates the CBA which prohibits the Patriots from bribing Miami not to match an offer sheet.

    Here is the relevant CBA section:

    It seems pretty clear that this section was violated, but I don't see how it hurt Welker (who appears to have received the same five year deal as was originally rumored).

    The article says that investigations like this usually go nowhere, but usually collusion is hard to prove. In this case, the collusion seems pretty obvious. I wonder if the NFLPA can afford to ignore an obvious violation with negligible consequences. In the future there may be an obvious violation where the player does suffer, and they wouldn't want to set a negative precedent.

    Although I didn't like the idea of giving up a pick for nothing, I don't fault the Patriots for playing at the edge of the CBA.

    I just wish that playing it fast and loose had earned us a material advantage.
  7. Isaac

    Isaac Rookie

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    Actually the poison pill hasn't really been tested through arbitration yet and it's entirely possible that it wouldn't stand up. This may be a major reason the Patriots traded instead of using it.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2007
  8. Sorna

    Sorna Rookie

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    Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

    What is the worse that could happen? Does the trade get reversed and the picks returned? Or do the Patriots keep Welker and Miami keeps the picks but they both get fined?
  9. solman

    solman Rookie

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    Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

    The CBA is supposed to protect the players, and the penalties in the anti-collusion section are focused on paying actual and punative damages to the affected players. But I'm not entirely sure that the penalties in the anti-collusion section are applicable to this type of violation.

    Either way, the actual damages to Welker are negligible, so it makes sense that the penalty should also be negligible.
  10. solman

    solman Rookie

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    If the NFLPA wants to challenge the disuse of poison pills, this deal is the wropng test case.

    The claim here is that by giving up a seventh round draft pick, the Pats were effectively bribing Miami not to match.

    If the NFLPA wants to allege collusion over the disuse of poison pills, several other RFA offer sheets will offer the NFLPA a good test (if PFT is to be believed). I don't think that the seven day match period has expired on those offers yet, so we'll have to wait and see what the NFLPA does. I imagine that their lawyers will wait for a team to actually match one of these offers before filing a complaint.
  11. SEPatsFan

    SEPatsFan Rookie

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    Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

    Actually in order for the that to be the case, wouldn't there have to actually been an offer sheet? According to SP, there was never an offer sheet signed, so there is not way that NE could have "bribed" Miami not to sign it.

    SSDD
  12. lutontown_fc

    lutontown_fc Rookie

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    What should have been stated in that article, repeatedly, was that it was an 'alleged' offer sheet - not one that existed in reality.

    Scott Pioli, in possibly an attempt to head this off at the pass, went on the record in his recent interview (in Reiss's blog) to say that no offer sheet had bene submitted - and that it was simply a case of media chinese whispers.

    Much ado about nothing.
  13. Fumblerooski

    Fumblerooski Rookie

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    Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

    The actual damages to Welker are minimal as you state because even though the original contract would have been $20 mil more, he would never have seen those last 2 years of it.

    Kraft actually got 2 more years out of Welker's contract by offering that 7th rounder as a "peace" offering to the Fins. Cagey owner that he is, who is he trying to fool?
  14. BPF

    BPF Rookie

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    I totally agree,there was never an offer sheet signed so the teams simply worked out a trade after Welker had officially signed his 1 year tender. At that point he was traded to the Pats who then signed him to an extension. So the provision below never comes into play and even if it's argued it does come into play the player consented to the trade.

    "If a Club exercises its Right of First Refusal and matches an Offer Sheet, that Club may not trade that player to the Club that submitted the Offer Sheet for at least one calendar year, unless the player consents to such trade."
  15. solman

    solman Rookie

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    Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

    Even if an arbitrator or special master could be convinced to buy into your interpretation, (very doubtful IMNSHO) the NFLPA would just turn it around and say that the trade compensated the Patriots for deciding NOT to extend the poison pill offer sheet.

    They'd be right. The Patriots did not extend an offer sheet BECAUSE the Phins agreed to a trade.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2007
  16. solman

    solman Rookie

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    The surprising thing about this article was that it named Welker's agent as the complaining party.
  17. Hawg 73

    Hawg 73 Rookie

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    He was probably counting the commission on the "alleged" offer sheet and got pissed when it didn't come to fruition.:)
  18. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What I'd like to know is this:

    If you are the agent, why are you letting Welker sign the contract to begin with if you have a problem with it?

    Sounds to me like this agent is a hair across his butt and wants to get more money.
  19. NE39

    NE39 Rookie

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    Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

    But according to Pioli, there was never an offer sheet or a plan for one. It was a straight trade of a player.
  20. lutontown_fc

    lutontown_fc Rookie

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    Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

    Im not sure 'Solmans not-so-humble-opinion' is legally admissable.

    We all have our theories on how it went down, but the only thing of importance is what is provable.

    I highly doubt, imnsho, that there is any physical evidence of the above theory.

    If the Patriots, Welker and Miami aren't willing to corroborate this version of events then the charge is without merit.
  21. zippo59

    zippo59 Rookie

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    To be honest I wouldn't be completely heartbroken if the trade was undone and we got our picks back.
  22. NE39

    NE39 Rookie

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    Here is Pioli's statement:

    I'm not sure what the NFLPA will say about offer sheets, considering this was a trade of a player's rights. I don't think the Patriots care whether he was a RFA or not.
  23. solman

    solman Rookie

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    Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

    If you're the NFL do you seriously walk into the hearing and claim:

    "We were never considering giving Welker an offer sheet"?

    Its a bad strategy for three reasons:

    1. The terms of the trade make it clear that giving Welker an offer sheet was in the Patriots best interests, as determined by the Patriots.

    2. There were extensive media reports to the contrary.

    3. Welker's agent is going to say that he discussed the offer sheet with the Patriots.
  24. NE39

    NE39 Rookie

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    Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

    How so? The Pats made it clear they looked at this transaction as a straight trade (see Pioli's comments above). They wanted the player, they traded for him. End of story.

    Which means nothing in court. I guess you could call in reporters and ask them where they got the information, but I doubt they give up their sources.

    Exactly how do you know that? Even if he were to say that, it is his word against theirs and really doesn't accomplish much.


    Exactly what is the NFLPA's basis? If there was never an offer sheet executed, I fail to see how they can say any violation occurred.

    The NFLPA can't say what the Pats intentions were.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2007
  25. lutontown_fc

    lutontown_fc Rookie

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    Re: NFLPA Accuses Patriots, Fins of violating CBA on Welker

    Wow.

    Nobody mentioned anything about 'extensive media reports' before.

    That changes EVERYTHING - we should probably offer one of our 1st round picks back to the NFL as a peace offering.

    Then Pioli should consider suing the Raiders on the same grounds of 'extensive media reports' to get randy Moss from the Raiders - and their 1st rounder too - personally I have no sympathy for the Raiders - its their fault that these media reports surfaced, and I really wanted Moss.

    When will teams finally learn that the media play such an integral part in the legal aspects of a contract and its existence?
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2007
  26. 14thDragon

    14thDragon Rookie

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    I am fairly sure those statements are a CYA manuever. [Offer sheet? What offer sheet? If there had been an offer sheet then we would be guilty of collusion, Q.E.D. an offer sheet never existed.] Essentialy, the FO line from both clubs will be that an offer sheet never existed and that the media was reporting rumour only. Any actual offer sheets that had been drawn up have been shredded and all incrimanting evidence is destroyed. Niether Welker nor his agent ever saw it, and Sheafter who reported it will not expose his source and both FO will say the same thing, they were talking about trading him from the start.

    Do I think the FO is not willing to resort to a little collusion to aviod more personel wars? Of course not, they are smart guys and will use every card they have. Do I think they are dumb enough to get caught? Hell NO.
  27. solman

    solman Rookie

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    At the time Pioli made these statements, I called BS. But rereading his statement now, he sures gives the impression that he was aware of the potential problem.

    My apologies to Pioli for accusing him of disingenuous BS, when he was actually being quite smart.
  28. Sean Pa Patriot

    Sean Pa Patriot Rookie

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    Welker's agent is a former player for the Raiders... Im not going to worry to much about this..
  29. lutontown_fc

    lutontown_fc Rookie

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    Its gets worse for the patriots.

    Solman called BS on Pioli!

    That HAS to be legally binding.
  30. NE39

    NE39 Rookie

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    Bottom line is I fail to see the case for any greivance, unless the NFLPA has some sort of smoking gun.

    If the basis of their complaint is that they think the Pats intended to give Welker an offer sheet, they better have proof of those intentions. I doubt the Patriots will step and and say anything.

    Short of that, this is going nowhere.

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