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NFL suspends Payton, Loomis & Williams; strips Saints of two draft picks


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DOn't think the analogy works.

If I put on pads and a helmet and go out and tackle someone I'll probably be arrested for assault.

In football violent hits are permitted. To prosecute hits that cause injuries, even there is cause to think that it was intentional, would open up a can of worms that I don't think the NFL wants.
But, it's the paying for inflicting unnecessary pain that makes it a felony in my opinion
 
Re: Warren Sapp says Jeremy Shockey was the Saints bounty Snitch

after a little thought, you are probably right...I shouldn't have posted my opinion of a stool pigeon. I never meant to insult anybody using an analogy but I see I have upset some here using the military reference...and today, with so many of our brave young men in harm's way,I should have put more thought into it.

As far as degrees go, it all comes down to where you live I guess....rape is a disgusting heinous crime, of that there is no question. The reason I said a child molester is the only thing lower than a rat comes from family here in RI in law enforcement, where the prevailing rank of scumbags has rapists and child predators at the very bottom. My Dad was a RI State Trooper and he taught me and my brothers that a real police officer despises a rat. He taught us to be men and tell the truth no matter the consequences. He told us the police use informants to make cases but despise the very nature of the informants themselves. Right now, today, I have three family members working the ACI in Cranston. One of them posts here on occasion and I'm sure he'll back me up on this...in prison the child predators are also the rats the C.O.'s use to gain information on inmate activities. The C.O.'s use them in every facility because they are extremely effective tools, and will tell on everyone, even the rapists, who are the next lowest form of vermin in any prison.

I hope this sort of clears things up just a bit...yes, it was an off the cuff ,flip comment for me to make in that earlier post but it was borne out of a surface reaction so often engendered on message boards. I can only try to be more considerate of others feelings when wandering outside the bounds of football discourse here.

J my man, speaking of the military, you might want to think about the code of conduct in the military academies. If you as a cadet observe wrongdoing (e.g. exam cheating) by others, you're obligated to report it, else haste la vista baby!
 
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But, it's the paying for inflicting unnecessary pain that makes it a felony in my opinion

It's proving the "inflicting unnecessary pain" part that it is the problem.
 
The hardest part is proving the intent to injure if it comes on a normal play. For criminal liability to attach, it really has to be something outside the confines of the game. See the Marty McSorley case (skating up behind someone and hitting them as hard as you can in the head with your stick). I remember an Eagles DL picking up and slamming McMahon down (separating his shoulder) while McMahon was walking back to the huddle, that I think might qualify as criminal. Nothing we've seen from the saints could be seen as anything other than normal football plays.

It's not intent by the player that is my point. It's the act of an organization's upper management that paid employees to intentionally injure a rival's employees.
 
DOn't think the analogy works.

If I put on pads and a helmet and go out and tackle someone I'll probably be arrested for assault.

In football violent hits are permitted. To prosecute hits that cause injuries, even there is cause to think that it was intentional, would open up a can of worms that I don't think the NFL wants.

This isn't about the actual hits. It's about employees getting paid to injure people regardless off whether they are football players, steel workers or refuse collectors. Players assume risk of injury just by playing the game. That risk shouldn't be compounded by other players being illegally contracted to cause them bodily harm.

Prosecuting players would be very difficult. Prosecuting the managers that contracted the players to cause the injuries shouldn't be.
 
Wow, down here in VA, there is a story where two anonymous Redskins players say Williams slapped down 15 grand on a table and said "Brad Johnson doesn't finish tomorrow's game" back in 2006.

Is Williams a tool or what. THe guy thinks he's in a Scorcese movie. I hope he never coaches again in the NFL. Even stations down here are questioning why the Redskins aren't being investigated further for this (my guess is after taking away 36 million from their salary cap,Goodell doesn't want to punish them for something else because thinks he got the real problem punished, Williams, and doesn't want to continue).
 
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Wow, down here in VA, there is a story where two anonymous Redskins players say Williams slapped down 15 grand on a table and said "Brad Johnson doesn't finish tomorrow's game" back in 2006.

Is Williams a tool or what. THe guy thinks he's in a Scorcese movie. I hope he never coaches again in the NFL. Even stations down here are questioning why the Redskins aren't being investigated further for this (my guess is after taking away 36 million from their salary cap,Goodell doesn't want to punish them for something else because thinks he got the real problem punished, Williams, and doesn't want to continue).

Its been reported on PFT too

This guy will never coach in the NFL for sure
 
Back when he was with the Skins, we saw him at a restaurant in Reston and I recognized him immediately. The guy emanated arrogance and toolishness even from a distance. You could just tell he was an a-hole. I caught his eye for maybe a second and he glared at me. Please, like I was even going to approach his Highness.
 
Wow, down here in VA, there is a story where two anonymous Redskins players say Williams slapped down 15 grand on a table and said "Brad Johnson doesn't finish tomorrow's game" back in 2006.

.

In sharp contrast SIRIUS NFL Radio interviewed 2 Skins players from Williams era who swore that they never ever heard Williams do anything like placing a bounty.

Someone is lying.
 
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In sharp contrast SIRIUS NFL Radio interviewed 2 Skins players from Williams era who swore that they never ever heard Williams do anything like placing a bounty.

Someone is lying.

I tend to believe it is the ones defending Williams simply because he didn't just up and decide to do stuff like one day. He's always been a bit nuts, by all accounts.

This issue has made for some compelling talk radio down here, I will say that. Lavar Arrington's hit on Shaun Alexander is discussed ofte because he was allegedly a player with a bounty on his head but Lavar swears he knew nothing about it and he was totally out of the loop. The guy who wrote the article was on the Lavar & Dukes show on Friday discussing it and it was just very interesting radio.
 
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Interesting article written by our Rivals, well we don't see them as rivals :)
Its got some truth to it. This is just going to make the fans join together more, and support the team more. Like in the past when losing sold more tickets, lol.
NO can be a weird place. But some interesting insights into how people see arrogance in NO. And we do hold our players in and almost mythical regard.
But, I don't agree, even thou we celebrate all past cultures, and refuse to change the city to look like a strip mall, um Altanta, we are not the only ones. When I was in NE their was a ton of history and parades preserved. I was very impressed.


Saints Bounty Scandal: After Schadenfreude, The Fear Of 'New Orleans Vs. The World' - SB Nation Atlanta

Saints Bounty Scandal: After Schadenfreude, The Fear Of 'New Orleans Vs. The World'

By Steven Godfrey - Columnist

Whatever the Atlanta Falcons and the NFL might have gained in Roger Goodell's dismantling of the Saints' 2012 season might have come at the cost of creating a meaner, polarized and even more passionate Who Dat Nation.

Perhaps the NFL just gave the New Orleans Saints a new form of their favorite thing – very special treatment.

There's no city, no fan base better equipped to channel outrage than New Orleans, where the only differences between a parade and a public protest are the number of Lucky Dog vendors and the posted curfew.

Who Dat Nation has been saying years how different New Orleans, the Saints, the 2009 team and their fans are from anything else in the world of sports. Different special. Different better. Different wholly unique. We cultural Plebians of 404 suburbia simply can't grasp this wonderment, and if we can and still reject it, it's simply out of jealousy. This is why, even when absent large numbers and alcohol, Saints fans can still be so wonderfully infuriating.

Certainly there’s no denying the splendor of New Orleans. Its appeal is rooted in characteristics found nowhere else from a people who dared to hold onto (and even celebrate) the pastiche of their cultures, and do so even now. As a Southerner hailing from and residing in more homogenous, gentrified areas, I applaud them. As a sports fan of the rival team, I loathe their never-ending demands that the world pay homage to their charm.

The Saints culture is programmed to reject commonality, so don’t explain to a Saints fan that the walloping punishment was almost certainly more in response to the cover-up than the actual crime. Who Dat Nation refuses to advance the conversation regarding organized bounty systems past the wobbly defense that the practice is (or maybe was) endemic across the NFL. You’re asking the colorblind to swatch shades of gray.

Goodell caught the Saints doing what many other teams apparently have done for years. Goodell must know that.

Again, the Saints deserved to be punished. Indeed, they deserved to be hammered.

They just didn't deserve what they got.

Trust me: your self-satisfaction will sooner starve than receive an ounce of remorse over institutional corruption from a Louisianan. This is the state – and New Orleans the philosophical capital – that took the Dionysian Chicago political machines of the 1920s and managed to perfect that blueprint for applications in the oil and gas industries, in a port city, in the South.

It’s delicious irony for any fan of the Atlanta Falcons, as our rivals have for the first time copped to being merely rank and file. For the first time ever, the Saints want you to believe they aren’t special, and that the bounty ring in question is a ubiquitous, downright vanilla philosophy of simple rule-abiding player motivation that's embraced 32 teams wide.
At the height of the nation's love affair with the 2009 Super Saints, Falcons fans were persecuted for sports treason when we groaned at glowing news narratives of redemption. A pro franchise saved the soul of a city besieged. This particular championship was different, and somehow more important than any other.

We argued that, the intangible mystique of sports be damned, beating the Colts wasn't the tactile salvation of a city. We suggested that bathing the feet of professional athletes as cultural saviors of your city might be the kind of false idolatry that alienates New Orleans from the rest of America in the first place. Plenty of cities have sports heroes, but NOLA anointed "Breesus" as Christ.

But New Orleans wants it that way, and so be it. Infuriating as it can be, there's enough uniformity in our American culture (and most certainly in the NFL). At their lowest or highest, New Orleans doesn’t want to be America, they want to be New Orleans. Accept that and you can learn to appreciate New Orleans for all but a handful of Sunday afternoons every year.

But understand this - celebrating the fall of Bounty-Gate tastes sweet, but most hubris does. Fear the 2012 New Orleans Saints. Pray to your football God that they don't gain inexorable steam late in the season and slip into the NFC Playoff fold.

And I consider such a playoff run "inexorable" only because the specific player suspensions are still pending. The NFLPA is well equipped to counter monster-sized suspensions, and there's some merit to the claim that coaches are just coaches. But if names like Roman Harper and Jonathan Vilma are lost for the duration, the reality of a depth chart and a 16 game season ignores literary conceits. In some ways, the real fate of the '12 Saints has yet to be determined.

There's also the added wrinkle of the city hosting the 2013 Super Bowl, and a certain lackluster feeling (maybe, and I'll preface this by stating that I'd certainly be willing to risk it) if a NFC South team like the Falcons were to make it that far in a year when their blood rival (and reigning kings) was neutered. Eventually NFL trends solve themselves, and the way Monte Kiffin's Tampa-2 "solved" Michael Vick, or gap assignments stymied The Wildcat, is the way Atlanta or some other franchise should've provided an answer to Drew Brees' passing attack. Now it can't happen that way.

2011 did little to advance the story of this rivalry. Just as the season before, when January came, Atlanta's offense produced a nervous fart and New Orleans' defense evaporated on the West Coast. But in the framework of the two teams, it was evident that the Saints were the better outfit - sometimes by a little, sometimes by a lot. Before Atlanta could solve this riddle in the years to come, an executive hand has swooped in to erase virtually the entire puzzle of beating New Orleans.

If you can willingly understand "The Nation of New Orleans" as our opponent's mantra, you can understand what a grave mistake Roger Goodell has made by not merely punishing (which they deserve), but temporarily extinguishing the Saints. At its core, the most powerful and successful sports league in the nation hates a rebel. The League has tried for years to flush out "maverick" operators like Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder when they strayed from the path set forth (see also: Raiders, Oakland).

But never before has the NFL dumped this kind of acrimony on top of a fan base with such a hereditary disposition to isolationism and contempt. For decades, New Orleans football fans searched for relevance, along with woebegone lots like Atlanta, Cincinnati and modern day Jacksonville. Now that they have that safely in the record books, Saints fans just need the smallest of perceived sleights to brew a righteous indignation and become rebels the likes of which the league's never dreamed of.

Now the same citywide maxims applied to government, business and state - "New Orleans isn't America, it's New Orleans, and you don't understand us" - can be copied and pasted neatly into rhetoric damning the NFL and its 31 favorite children. Right or wrong, acute or insane, this is a culture with a ton of practice exercising disgust at national governing bodies and business. New Orleans, its fans and its cultural leaders won't back down from Sean Payton's suspension any more than they've shied away from the media spotlight when faced with any other perceived persecution.

Matt Ryan wants what Drew Brees did. Atlanta wants the title New Orleans won (and, hysteric moral bull**** aside, won fair and square and without need of any asterisk, now or ever, end of that), but we want it by dethroning the wonderful, terrible, hated team who got it before us. However, when the eventual 2013 Champion is crowned, it too will come without an asterisk (*didn't face a complete New Orleans Saints squad).

That won't stop howls and a fiercer-than-ever show of colors among Who Dat Nation. This will stretch on for years and years, and extend far past the Gulf. New Orleans, fair or not, deserving or not, has been effectively removed from the chance to play in and win the Super Bowl in their home stadium as a result of unprecedented punishments from the same league that demanded its owner keep the franchise alive after Katrina. That goodwill is lost forever now, and for the near future, Roger Goodell's verdict insures that being a Saints fan means identifying yourself as a hated rival to every other team every season, and in some ways, the sport itself.

Take it from someone well versed in the ways of his enemy: those bastards really won't bow, don't know how.
 
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Like I posted before, the Saints aren't the only ones guilty of this conduct. You guys just got jobbed because someone ratted you out (Shockey-(cough-cough). I hope we meet in the SB at your house just to piss off De Fuerer. I am know officially choosing the Saints as my NFC defacto team (I'll always be Pats first).

Go get 'em my boys from the Bayou.:)
 
I tend to believe it is the ones defending Williams simply because he didn't just up and decide to do stuff like one day. He's always been a bit nuts, by all accounts.

This issue has made for some compelling talk radio down here, I will say that. Lavar Arrington's hit on Shaun Alexander is discussed ofte because he was allegedly a player with a bounty on his head but Lavar swears he knew nothing about it and he was totally out of the loop. The guy who wrote the article was on the Lavar & Dukes show on Friday discussing it and it was just very interesting radio.

Williams also didn't come up with this stuff by himself. There always has to be a central villain when a new "scandal" breaks.
 
Like I posted before, the Saints aren't the only ones guilty of this conduct. You guys just got jobbed because someone ratted you out (Shockey-(cough-cough). I hope we meet in the SB at your house just to piss off De Fuerer. I am know officially choosing the Saints as my NFC defacto team (I'll always be Pats first).

Go get 'em my boys from the Bayou.:)

:) I have to admit, nothing would piss off Goddell more than seeing a saints vs pats SB. That would be hilarious to watch him have to hand either team a trophy.

and Bayou boys, its the perfect thing to call them, sorry may steal that ,, thanks
 
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Williams also didn't come up with this stuff by himself. There always has to be a central villain when a new "scandal" breaks.

Oh, yeah, definitely. Wasn't he a Buddy Ryan protege?

It's like how BB didn't invent signal stealing though from the meda outcry you'd think he did.
 
:) I have to admit, nothing would piss off Goddell more than seeing a saints vs pats SB. That would be hilarious to watch him have to hand either team a trophy.

Indeed it would my freind. Cheers and good luck. I hope we meet in the end!:)
 
Oh, yeah, definitely. Wasn't he a Buddy Ryan protege?

It's like how BB didn't invent signal stealing though from the meda outcry you'd think he did.

Yep.

10char
 
Interesting article written by our Rivals, well we don't see them as rivals :)
Its got some truth to it. This is just going to make the fans join together more, and support the team more. Like in the past when losing sold more tickets, lol.
NO can be a weird place. But some interesting insights into how people see arrogance in NO. And we do hold our players in and almost mythical regard.
But, I don't agree, even thou we celebrate all past cultures, and refuse to change the city to look like a strip mall, um Altanta, we are not the only ones. When I was in NE their was a ton of history and parades preserved. I was very impressed.

If the fans and the players do have a 2007 Patriots-style "Eff You Tour 2012", then buckle in and prepare for a hell of a ride. That was such a fun season... you know, right up until the SB.
 
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If the fans and the players do have a 2007 Patriots-style "Eff You Tour 2012", then buckle in and prepare for a hell of a ride. That was such a fun season... you know, right up until the SB.

To get there and fail is better than never getting there at all. At least that's what I tell my wife while repairing drywall and door hinges.:)
 
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