NFL Network Top 100 - Players 21-30

[PatsSox363804]

That is bunk. Yes, the Saints did spread it around more, but it affected the people below the top guys more than the top guys. Both teams had three receivers with 79 or more catches.

Where it made more of a difference was that the Saints had four more receivers with 32 or more receptions while the Pats only had one. But let's not forget that Brees made 46 more pass attempts than Brady which accounts for a lot of that difference.

Both Brees and Brady targeted their three receivers quite a bit. The Saints' top three accounted for 56.6% of the receptions and the Pats' top three accounted for 72.5%. Graham accounted for 21.2% of Brees completions and Gronk accounted for 22.4%. So yes, Brady targeted his top three more than Brees did his top three, but both Graham and Gronk caught about the same percentage of balls even though Graham was Brees' primary receiver and Gronk was Brady's second favorite.

Another popular one I hear amongst Saints fans is "Gronk has already peaked, Graham is still learning how to play the game so Graham is a superior player."

 

[pherein]

hmm.. I think their even. Each player does something better than the other.



As always Graham is measured at 6 ft 6”, 260 lbs , he's really 6 ft 7” , and 265 lbs. He has been measured each year as 6ft 7” and 265 lbs by the saints medical staff, also the miami Heat, but even listed as 6ft 6” on the saints site. Im sure they are happy to continue the deception of his actual size. But Nola always reports this correctly.
New Orleans Saints tight end Jimmy Graham continues to get better and better - New Orleans Saints Football NFL News - NOLA.com

At 6 feet 7 inches and 265 pounds, Graham has a rare combination of size and athleticism that has made him into a new breed of weapon for the new pass-happy league.

Graham has Height, speed, arm length, and over Gronk, and I dont believe Gronk would beat Grahams 38.5 vertical jump, or cone drill scores. Im positive Graham cant bench press more than Gronk either, and he has larger hands.

Graham
Jimmy Graham 2010 NFL Combine Results - ESPN

Gronk
Rob Gronkowski 2010 NFL Combine Results - ESPN

When I look at Graham he never seems that big. He seems proportionate to his height. Its deceptive until he walks past a linemen, then I think, damn he's huge,lol. Gronk on the other hand looks thick, built like a brick house. Ive always thought Gronk had a thicker skeleton structure than Graham does. Maybe that weighs down his speed marks. Not that a 10th of a second means much. I don't know. Gronk has more power in the upper body and legs than Graham does. Thats one difference I see from just physical traits of the 2 TE’s.
On the field, I think it has to be remembered, Gronk has a superior QB, and Graham being a basket ball player is used to crazy, leaping, passes in game. Years of passing the ball can build up muscle memory. I still think either has a long way to proving they are even close to Gates.

I think Graham is a better pass catcher
2011 New Orleans Saints Yeabook: Jimmy Graham - YouTube

and Gronk is a better runner after the catch.
Rob Gronkowski Highlights 2011-2012 - YouTube
.. but you decide.

Blocking: Not sure where anyone is getting the idea Graham is a bad blocker
Blocking

Deep Pass

Drop Rate

Slot Performance

Yards Per Route

The stats are interesting

To me Graham is a better pass catcher, more of a huge WR with LB weight, and WR speed. Some of the one handed , and crazy catches he makes makes Brees look good on stats. Not as good as Colston, but he would make 2nd WR in our line up if he tried out. Graham has speed but not the running power of Gronk, and has no moves after the catch.
Gronk is a better runner after after the catch, because the guy is just tough, and cant be tackled by 1 guy. Hes like a 6ft 6”, 265 lbs power back that can catch. IT would be interesting to see if Gronk could power run the ball from the back field at the GL. I think he could. Graham could never do that. I do not think Gronk could make some of the catches Graham does either.
Gronk is a superior than traditional complete TE, and Graham is some warped WR/TE hybrid, like Gates, only bigger, and blocks better. Hern might be closer to Grahams catching ability. Graham might even be more a Hern/Gronk hybrid. Not sure. Hard to pin him down.
Both guys dominate on the field. Not sure who I would pick if they were both free agents. Depends on the offense your running I guess.

 

[Ring 6]

hmm.. I think their even. Each player does something better than the other.



As always Graham is measured at 6 ft 6”, 260 lbs , he's really 6 ft 7” , and 265 lbs. He has been measured each year as 6ft 7” and 265 lbs by the saints medical staff, also the miami Heat, but even listed as 6ft 6” on the saints site. Im sure they are happy to continue the deception of his actual size. But Nola always reports this correctly.
New Orleans Saints tight end Jimmy Graham continues to get better and better - New Orleans Saints Football NFL News - NOLA.com


Graham has Height, speed, arm length, and hand size advantage over Gronk,

I stopped here.
You posted combine numbers showing them measure at exactly the same height, and said Graham has a height advantage. It also showed Gronk having larger hands but you said Graham has a hand size advantage.
It illustrates you are not starting from an objective position, intentionally or not.

 

[mayoclinic]

hmm.. I think their even. Each player does something better than the other.

I love you, man ... but you're also the guy who thought Dave Thomas was as good as Aaron Hernandez. I think you're a little off on this particular subject.

 

[pherein]

I stopped here.
You posted combine numbers showing them measure at exactly the same height, and said Graham has a height advantage. It also showed Gronk having larger hands but you said Graham has a hand size advantage.
It illustrates you are not starting from an objective position, intentionally or not.

Graham is 6ft 7, but your right just noticed the hand size mess up. Oh i know where i got that wrong , did the wrong math on the NFL site for hand size, posted the espn ones. Let me correct that.
http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/rob-gronkowski?id=497240

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/jimmy-graham?id=497236

 

[pherein]

I love you, man ... but you're also the guy who thought Dave Thomas was as good as Aaron Hernandez. I think you're a little off on this particular subject.

Im going to live with that forever,lol

 

[ausbacker]

Im going to live with that forever,lol

Don't worry pherein, we won't let you forget either.

 

[eagle eye]

I rate them around the same. Gronk is a better blocker but I think Graham is a better receiver. Theres nothing much in it, all I hope is that Gronk can be as good as he has been to date for many years as a Patriot.

 

[pherein]

Don't worry pherein, we won't let you forget either.

LOL, i know some days abita and a iPad in a pub is not a good thing. Hmm never thought I would ever say that.

 

[Ring 6]

Graham is 6ft 7, but your right just noticed the hand size mess up. Oh i know where i got that wrong , did the wrong math on the NFL site for hand size, posted the espn ones. Let me correct that.
NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Rob Gronkowski

NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Jimmy Graham

Graham, like Gronkowski measured at 6'6 1/4.
6'6 1/4 is not taller than 6'6 1/4
Nor is "now I'm 6'7 but I was 6'6 1/4" taller than "I was 6'6 1/4".

 

[Ring 6]

Graham is 6ft 7, but your right just noticed the hand size mess up. Oh i know where i got that wrong , did the wrong math on the NFL site for hand size, posted the espn ones. Let me correct that.
NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Rob Gronkowski

NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Jimmy Graham

Are you trying to say now that you were right and 10 5/8 is bigger than 10 3/4?
Not that it means anything, other than illustrating your bias.

 

[pherein]

Are you trying to say now that you were right and 10 5/8 is bigger than 10 3/4?
Not that it means anything, other than illustrating your bias.

Andy , I don't think I'm the one bias here. Read my correction. I just misunderstood the NFL hand size. Im not a carpenter,lol. It shouldn't be a big deal. Think you might be nit picking a bit ?

 

[pherein]

Graham, like Gronkowski measured at 6'6 1/4.
6'6 1/4 is not taller than 6'6 1/4
Nor is "now I'm 6'7 but I was 6'6 1/4" taller than "I was 6'6 1/4".

I realize you don't know Grahams real height, and wish to use the eronious stats, thats fine . But all of NO knows Graham is 6 ft 7"
There are a 100's of references to this. Graham is 6 ft 7". Anyone who has really studied Graham would know this.

HORNETS: Crescent City Connection - Jimmy Graham

Graham: Everyone has challenged me. Everyone! I’ve got probably 15 challenges on the board, and I’m ready to take on all of them, one at a time. I kept telling everyone, “Bring it. I’m ready. I’ve got my ankle braces, my (basketball) shoes. I’m ready to go.” But for some reason, when this offseason came, it was impossible to get in touch with anybody! [laughs]

I plan to get it together though and play them. I’m going to make a little extra money on the side, just whupping up on everyone in this locker room. [laughs]

I would say the main culprit though, the guy who is always talking (trash) every day is (Adrian) Arrington, sitting right there. He thinks he can beat me at hoops and tries to pretend he can dunk on me. But look at him – he weighs 172 pounds (Editor’s Note: Arrington is officially listed at 192 pounds) soaking wet. I’m 265 pounds and 6-foot-7, with hops and a 41-inch vertical leap.

But what ever makes you feel good , I guess. Most outside of NO don't know his real height or other stats, but its easily researched.

 

[Snake Eyes]

hmm.. I think their even. Each player does something better than the other.



As always Graham is measured at 6 ft 6”, 260 lbs , he's really 6 ft 7” , and 265 lbs. He has been measured each year as 6ft 7” and 265 lbs by the saints medical staff, also the miami Heat, but even listed as 6ft 6” on the saints site. Im sure they are happy to continue the deception of his actual size. But Nola always reports this correctly.
New Orleans Saints tight end Jimmy Graham continues to get better and better - New Orleans Saints Football NFL News - NOLA.com


Graham has Height, speed, arm length, and over Gronk, and I dont believe Gronk would beat Grahams 38.5 vertical jump, or cone drill scores. Im positive Graham cant bench press more than Gronk either, and he has larger hands.

Forgive me but should I care about bench pressing, height, and hand size? I care about what a player can do on the field, all this measurable stuff is just an attempt to predict future performance, and not a very good one at that.

They're both great at catching the ball but Gronk is an absolute BEAST at blocking, IMO the comparison is over right there, Gronk's skills make him more impactful than Graham.

 

[Ring 6]

I realize you don't know Grahams real height, and wish to use the eronious stats, thats fine . But all of NO knows Graham is 6 ft 7"
There are a 100's of references to this. Graham is 6 ft 7". Anyone who has really studied Graham would know this.

HORNETS: Crescent City Connection - Jimmy Graham

But what ever makes you feel good , I guess. Most outside of NO don't know his real height or other stats, but its easily researched.

You are kidding me right?
Both OFFICIALLY were measured at the combine at 6'6 1/4, and you are saying based on him saying in an article that he is 6'7 I am the one who is naive?
By the way, for you to be correct, that would mean Graham grew 3/4 since the combine. You say this is proof he is taller than Gronk, so when did you measure Gronk, or read an interview where he says how tall he is?

 

[Ring 6]

Andy , I don't think I'm the one bias here. Read my correction. I just misunderstood the NFL hand size. Im not a carpenter,lol. It shouldn't be a big deal. Think you might be nit picking a bit ?

Maybe I misunderstood your 'correction'. It sounded as if you were saying you were right, but posted the wrong numbers.
I don't know how I am nit picking when you brought up the measurement. I'm just pointing out you were incorrect. If the second post was agreeing to that, my bad, I read it as changing your source to say you were correct.
In any event, it is totally irrelevant who has a fraction bigger hands.

My point was simply you chose to measurements, one identical, and the other favoring Gronk as evidence of advantages Graham has. That is the bias.

 

[pherein]

You are kidding me right?
Both OFFICIALLY were measured at the combine at 6'6 1/4, and you are saying based on him saying in an article that he is 6'7 I am the one who is naive?
By the way, for you to be correct, that would mean Graham grew 3/4 since the combine. You say this is proof he is taller than Gronk, so when did you measure Gronk, or read an interview where he says how tall he is?

Hmm and Officially measured with the miami , college, and the Saints at 6'7 to 6'8. You mean you only have one source? who's naive, hehe
were he's listed as 6"8 and 6"7
Jimmy Graham Stats - Miami (FL) Hurricanes - College Basketball

pro football got it right, almost
Jimmy Graham NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Miami hurricanes
Player Bio: Jimmy Graham - HurricaneSports.com - The University of Miami Official Athletic Site

basketball
http://hurricanesports.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/graham_jimmy00.html


You should check more sources next time. Graham is 6ft7". Its not much of a concern to us that other fans don't know this. Its kind of a running joke with us when we hear 6'6 on the TV. Im sure BB knows.

 

[mayoclinic]

I realize you don't know Grahams real height, and wish to use the eronious stats, thats fine . But all of NO knows Graham is 6 ft 7"
There are a 100's of references to this. Graham is 6 ft 7". Anyone who has really studied Graham would know this.

HORNETS: Crescent City Connection - Jimmy Graham

But what ever makes you feel good , I guess. Most outside of NO don't know his real height or other stats, but its easily researched.

Gotta go with Andy on this one. Because Graham says he's 6'7" that makes him 6'7"? I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

As Andy notes, the only time Gronk and Graham were impartially measured by the same authority was at the 2010 NFL Combine. Graham was measured at 6'6 1/4" and 260# with 35" arms. Gronk was measured at 6' 6 1/4" and 264# with 34.3" arms. So if Graham is really 6'7", then so is Gronk.

 

[pherein]

Maybe I misunderstood your 'correction'. It sounded as if you were saying you were right, but posted the wrong numbers.
I don't know how I am nit picking when you brought up the measurement. I'm just pointing out you were incorrect. If the second post was agreeing to that, my bad, I read it as changing your source to say you were correct.
In any event, it is totally irrelevant who has a fraction bigger hands.

My point was simply you chose to measurements, one identical, and the other favoring Gronk as evidence of advantages Graham has. That is the bias.

Its not bias just pointing out physical facts as i see them, and as reported. I didn't see that brought up in this discussion, and thought it might add to it. Bigger hands and longer arm length are important for a TE/WR/QB.

Michael Vick, who stands barely 6-0, has has an 8½-inch hand. However, Drew Brees, who stands just 6-0½, has a hand of 10¼. I think this gives Brees more control over the ball. They are advantages. Assuming 2 great TE's, 1-2 inches in arm length can make a big difference on the field.

 

[Ring 6]

Hmm and Officially measured with the miami , college, and the Saints at 6'7 to 6'8. You mean you only have one source? who's naive, hehe
were he's listed as 6"8 and 6"7
Jimmy Graham Stats - Miami (FL) Hurricanes - College Basketball

pro football got it right, almost
Jimmy Graham NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Miami hurricanes
Player Bio: Jimmy Graham - HurricaneSports.com - The University of Miami Official Athletic Site

basketball
Player Bio: Jimmy Graham - HurricaneSports.com - The University of Miami Official Athletic Site


You should check more sources next time. Graham is 6ft7". Its not much of a concern to us that other fans don't know this. Its kind of a running joke with us when we hear 6'6 on the TV. Im sure BB knows.

I can't believe you are continuing this.
You do realize that at the combine the player is ACTUALLY MEASURED right?
You do realize that how players are listed on a roster for height and weight is a joke as far as accuracy right? Can I cite that to prove 400lb Ted Washington was really 315?

There is one fact. He was MEASURED at 6'6 1/4 at the combine. Are you telling me he shrank 1 3/4 inches from Miami to the combine, then grew 3/4s?

You are taking what HE ASKS TO BE LISTED AT on the roster, and calling that proof in the face of an actual measurement.

I can pretty well assure you that BB doesn't know, or care whether he is 6'6 1/4 as he 100% for certain was 2 years ago, or is now 6'7.

You are fighting a losing battle in this argument.