NFL in Toronto?

[upstater1]

The Bills may be one of the top teams in ticket sales, but the reason behind that is Buffalo does have the leagues lowest average ticket price. This past season, I think it was around $46.00. Compare that to the Patriots and there is a big difference.

Also regarding Buffalo, according to census data, it is a old and declining population. Statistics dont lie, and those two variables do not bold well for the future.

I still, however, feel Buffalo wont lose their franchise.

Well, the year is 2007. In the last census, Buffalo lost people from 1990 to 2000. But right now, people are flocking to the city. There are billions of dollars in private investment being sunk into new housing (mainly high-end condos, lofts, homes) in downtown, not to mention entertainment. Around the HSBC centre there is going to be $750 million worth of development. There already is an entire downtown entertainment district that is very popular and that wasn't there just 6 years ago (the first venue opened up in 2001). The Elmwood Avenue corridor is now hom toa great many restaurants, as is Hertel Street. Buffalo still boasts street after city street of beautiful old mansions, a product of its status as one of the US's richest cities a century ago.

I've lived in plenty of dying cities, and I can say I know the difference between one on the rebound, and one that's hurting. I've lived in New Haven, Providence, Boston, Worcester, Albany (actually Troy), Rochester, Buffalo, and a few others. This definitely feels like pPovidence did in the early to mid 1990s when I lived there. Suddenly you had a lot of development, and Providence changed. That's what's going on in Buffalo.

I know that Buffalo has the lowest ticket prices, but the surrounding area has a decently large population (over 1 million in Buffalo, another 1 million in Rochester, 1 million in Ft. Erie to Mississauga), and I'd say they could afford to raise the prices more, and if they win, they will charge more. ralph Wilson I think is correct on many of his arguments but he's also a hypocrite for not selling the naming rights to the stadium.

 

[2_LAW_4]

Well, the year is 2007. In the last census, Buffalo lost people from 1990 to 2000. But right now, people are flocking to the city. There are billions of dollars in private investment being sunk into new housing (mainly high-end condos, lofts, homes) in downtown, not to mention entertainment. Around the HSBC centre there is going to be $750 million worth of development. There already is an entire downtown entertainment district that is very popular and that wasn't there just 6 years ago (the first venue opened up in 2001). The Elmwood Avenue corridor is now hom toa great many restaurants, as is Hertel Street. Buffalo still boasts street after city street of beautiful old mansions, a product of its status as one of the US's richest cities a century ago.

I've lived in plenty of dying cities, and I can say I know the difference between one on the rebound, and one that's hurting. I've lived in New Haven, Providence, Boston, Worcester, Albany (actually Troy), Rochester, Buffalo, and a few others. This definitely feels like pPovidence did in the early to mid 1990s when I lived there. Suddenly you had a lot of development, and Providence changed. That's what's going on in Buffalo.

I know that Buffalo has the lowest ticket prices, but the surrounding area has a decently large population (over 1 million in Buffalo, another 1 million in Rochester, 1 million in Ft. Erie to Mississauga), and I'd say they could afford to raise the prices more, and if they win, they will charge more. ralph Wilson I think is correct on many of his arguments but he's also a hypocrite for not selling the naming rights to the stadium.

All good points. I haven’t travelled into the suburbs, so I'll take your word for it. As I mentioned in my previous post, I don't think Buffalo will lose their franchise even after Wilson passes away. I know there is a local wealthy businessman that has been linked to "taking over" where Wilson will soon leave off (god forbid).


Away from football...

Two things of note:
1. As a Torontonian, I am privileged to drive along the Don Valley Parkway and see Toronto's beautiful skyline of prestige high rise residential and office buildings. However, the same cannot be said for Buffalo's skyline. The Central Business District skyline is a joke (no pun intended). I don't see how many people would want to flock into the city.
2. You mentioned that lofty condo's are proposed to be built. How many times have I heard that before? A new high rise residential building (Trump Towers - 1300 ft. tall) has been proposed, assessed, and given the go-ahead to be built here in Toronto and I am still waiting (commence date has been pushed to 2008). Presently, there are so many legal and political forces that delay or stop construction from happening. Don’t hold your breathe.

 

[unoriginal]

Is this unspoken NFL/CFL handshake agreement from the time before the NFL was looking to expand the game internationally? World League, NFL Europe, games in Mexico, etc.?

If the NFL is actually serious about going global in the coming decades, the places to start are Mexico and Canada, and that means Toronto and Mexico City. Those two locales, especially the former, have a built-in football fan base and aren't ridiculous road trips. Plus the time zone thing allows those places to share in the television market.

Halifax Argonauts has a nice ring to it.

 

[Seymour93]

I still, however, feel Buffalo wont lose their franchise.

As do I.

As for your post above it seems like you're mostly agreeing with me, the NFL won't make it in Toronto due to many factors. Let me be clear, I never said I thought the NFL should race to Calgary, Edmonton, or Saskatchewan. What I believe is that they're more likely to get a franchise than Toronto. It's simple. Buffalo isn't losing the Bills any time soon and Toronto is a city with a lot of new blood like Vegas and Arizona over here. To this day the Cardinals are struggling to establish a fanbase because many of the people who move to Arizona bring the love for their teams back home with them. Toronto would face a similar problem, added to the fact that football is more popular overall in the U.S. than it is in Canada.

Toronto has zero chance of gaining a franchise if the Bills are in Buffalo. Even if the Bills move to L.A., Chicago, or San Antonio, Toronto would still be closer to the NFL than the western provinces. This is a reason I'd think that in the extremely unlikely event that the NFL would be looking towards Canada that Calgary would land a franchise ahead of your city. The Vikings or maybe the Seahawks are the closest to Alberta and they're hundreds and hundreds of miles away. A franchise in the western provinces could establish a fan base that reaches as wide as the Broncos do in the Rocky Mountian West. The western provinces are more of a traditional football area than Toronto as well so you'd have loyal fans and a sold out stadium every week. Like in Arizona, I'm not sure you could sell out consistently in Toronto. Anyways I'd put a franchise in Boise before I'd put one in Calgary or Toronto, so this debate is really mute.

I think the NFL prides itself in being America's game. All the other leagues are in Canada because they're more global sports. Well all the other leagues aren't near as an attraction here than the NFL is so whatever the NFL is doing it's clearly working. There's no need to expand to Canada due to the success here.

 

[2_LAW_4]

Is this unspoken NFL/CFL handshake agreement from the time before the NFL was looking to expand the game internationally? World League, NFL Europe, games in Mexico, etc.?

If the NFL is actually serious about going global in the coming decades, the places to start are Mexico and Canada, and that means Toronto and Mexico City. Those two locales, especially the former, have a built-in football fan base and aren't ridiculous road trips. Plus the time zone thing allows those places to share in the television market.

Halifax Argonauts has a nice ring to it.

I think a European country has a better shot at a franchise than Mexico City.

A number of factors must be considered:
1. Mexico is extremely hot year round. Players could suffer from sun strokes, etc.
2. Although Mexico City has the largest North American population, most of the populous are of lower class. They wouldnt be able to afford ticket prices, unless they are sold for peanuts.
3. Investors/stakeholders. Would there be any?
4. Violence: The game in Mexico had field side fences that seperated the players from the crowd.
5. What players would want to live in a poverty-striken city/country?
6. Langauge barrier. Spanish is their national language.
7. Border conflicts. It currently is very difficult to cross into the US from Mexico. Problems for fans wanting to visit other US stadiums may arise.
8. Appeal. Do they like football? Or is soccer their only sport?

 

[Handel]

Montréal should have a team before Toronto. Football is getting really popular in Québec.

 

[unoriginal]

1. Mexico is extremely hot year round. Players could suffer from sun strokes, etc.
2. Although Mexico City has the largest North American population, most of the populous are of lower class. They wouldnt be able to afford ticket prices, unless they are sold for peanuts.
3. Investors/stakeholders. Would there be any?
4. Violence: The game in Mexico had field side fences that seperated the players from the crowd.
5. What players would want to live in a poverty-striken city/country?
6. Langauge barrier. Spanish is their national language.
7. Border conflicts. It currently is very difficult to cross into the US from Mexico. Problems for fans wanting to visit other US stadiums may arise.
8. Appeal. Do they like football? Or is soccer their only sport?

1. Mexico City is on a very very high alpine plateau. It is less hot there year round than it is in Phoenix, New Orleans, or Miami, among other places.
Mexico City
Phoenix
5. Players don't necessarily need to live in the community. Junior Seau lives in San Diego, Troy Brown in West Virginia, to name but a few. And there are nice areas in the capital. It's not like they're savages down there.
6. Hasn't stopped the NHL, or Mexican fans of the Cardinals or Chargers. Just means the players are a little more off-limits to the local press.
8. They do. Why do you think the Cards and Niners, of all teams, sold out a regular season game down there?

The only problem you mention I think is dead on is number 3. Got to find a owner down there. Toronto already seems to have a least one group lined up.

 

[2_LAW_4]

As do I.

As for your post above it seems like you're mostly agreeing with me, the NFL won't make it in Toronto due to many factors. Let me be clear, I never said I thought the NFL should race to Calgary, Edmonton, or Saskatchewan. What I believe is that they're more likely to get a franchise than Toronto. It's simple. Buffalo isn't losing the Bills any time soon and Toronto is a city with a lot of new blood like Vegas and Arizona over here. To this day the Cardinals are struggling to establish a fanbase because many of the people who move to Arizona bring the love for their teams back home with them. Toronto would face a similar problem, added to the fact that football is more popular overall in the U.S. than it is in Canada.

Toronto has zero chance of gaining a franchise if the Bills are in Buffalo. Even if the Bills move to L.A., Chicago, or San Antonio, Toronto would still be closer to the NFL than the western provinces. This is a reason I'd think that in the extremely unlikely event that the NFL would be looking towards Canada that Calgary would land a franchise ahead of your city. The Vikings or maybe the Seahawks are the closest to Alberta and they're hundreds and hundreds of miles away. A franchise in the western provinces could establish a fan base that reaches as wide as the Broncos do in the Rocky Mountian West. The western provinces are more of a traditional football area than Toronto as well so you'd have loyal fans and a sold out stadium every week. Like in Arizona, I'm not sure you could sell out consistently in Toronto. Anyways I'd put a franchise in Boise before I'd put one in Calgary or Toronto, so this debate is really mute.

I think the NFL prides itself in being America's game. All the other leagues are in Canada because they're more global sports. Well all the other leagues aren't near as an attraction here than the NFL is so whatever the NFL is doing it's clearly working. There's no need to expand to Canada due to the success here.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, however, you got to understand that Toronto is a much bigger market than Calgary or Edmonton. You may point to those places because the fans are more loyal to their home teams, but if you incorporate population figures, between Toronto and Calgary/Edmonton, it is a no brainer. As I pointed out, Toronto has the fifth largest population in all of NA (including Mexico City). If 20% of Toronto's population are loyal fans, that is equivilant to 1.28 million people (assuming Toronto's GTA population is still 6.4). That figure alone is larger than Calgary's or Edmonton's population.

Toronto is also one of a few cities (LA) that is being linked to a football franchise. That doesn't necessarily mean they'll get one. What it does mean is that the NFL is taking Toronto much more serious than Edmonton or Calgary.

I also wouldn't consider Toronto a city with a lot of "new blood". Toronto, formerly known as Fort York, has been around just as long as some major cities in the US (Chicago, NY, Boston, etc.). If you are referring to the fast growing suburban sprawl or population intensification up north, a lot of that has to do with lands finally being sold by farmers. Also, there is a large amount of chinese immigrants moving into the northeastern suburbs of Markham, New Market, and Richmond Hill.

Your last line is very true. The NFL is known as, "America's Game". I find it hard to imagine another franchise find its way outside of the US. However, if a team did venture outside, Toronto would no doubt be the number one choice (in my mind). According to the NFL, a 100 or 200 mile buffer is placed around franchises that represent the market area. If another city falls within that buffer, it cannot be considered. Toronto does fall inside Buffalo's buffer, however, Lake Ontario poses a physical barrier. If you incorporate road travel, Toronto falls outside of the buffer and thus would make it reasonable to have a franchise even with Buffalo still around.

Lastly, did anyone catch Willis McGahee said? He asked why dont the Bills move to Toronto. I have seen Bills players in the past walking in the downtown (Milloy and Fletcher).

 

[2_LAW_4]

1. Mexico City is on a very very high alpine plateau. It is less hot there year round than it is in Phoenix, New Orleans, or Miami, among other places.
Mexico City
Phoenix
5. Players don't necessarily need to live in the community. Junior Seau lives in San Diego, Troy Brown in West Virginia, to name but a few. And there are nice areas in the capital. It's not like they're savages down there.
6. Hasn't stopped the NHL, or Mexican fans of the Cardinals or Chargers. Just means the players are a little more off-limits to the local press.
8. They do. Why do you think the Cards and Niners, of all teams, sold out a regular season game down there?

The only problem you mention I think is dead on is number 3. Got to find a owner down there. Toronto already seems to have a least one group lined up.

1. Two of the teams you mentioned play in a Dome (Saints and now the Cards). Do you think Mexico would build an indoor stadium?
5. During the NFL season, Brown and Seau live in Mass. During the offseason, many players go back to their permanent residences.

 

[unoriginal]

1. Two of the teams you mentioned play in a Dome (Saints and now the Cards). Do you think Mexico would build an indoor stadium?
5. During the NFL season, Brown and Seau live in Mass. During the offseason, many players go back to their permanent residences.

Well, I mean, of course. Players and coaches live their inseason lives at the facility. Belichick works 18 hour days, and Brady checks in at 6 in the morning.

Why would they need an indoor stadium? The temperatures don't warrant it. They are steady year round, and the growing season is also year round. It a perfect environment for a natural grass field.

If Mexico City could put on a Summer Olympics in 1968, they'll be able to field an NFL franchise in 2018. Or whenever.

 

[2_LAW_4]

If Mexico City could put on a Summer Olympics in 1968, they'll be able to field an NFL franchise in 2018. Or whenever.

very true.... I wasn't around to see it, maybe it was a complete failure which would scare NFL relocation anyway =)

 

[unoriginal]

I also wish to note that the NFL regular season attendance record was set at the Mexico City game between the Cards and Niners.

Look, I'm not saying this Mexico City (or Toronto) franchise deal is going to happen, or that it must happen, or that it should happen. Well, actually, I am saying that it should, if the NFL is serious about growing. What I am saying is that it could happen. It is not very far fetched at all, if ownership groups step up with viable business plans and other NFL teams are looking to move.

 

[Seymour93]

Lastly, did anyone catch Willis McGahee said? He asked why dont the Bills move to Toronto. I have seen Bills players in the past walking in the downtown (Milloy and Fletcher).

Yeah and he got buried for it in the Buffalo press.

This is another potential problem with moving the Bills to Toronto. Many of the Buffalo fans would resent the Toronto Bills for quitting their city and a lot would even quit supporting them altogether. Look at Houston. Look at Baltimore. Nowadays, those two cities have very few Titans and Colts fans respectively. I know it would be different moving from Buffalo to Toronto due to the (lack of) distance between the two, but you'd lose a lot of blue blooded Bills fans in NY if the move ever happened.

Good luck though to Toronto's efforts. I have nothing against them (although I might if the Bills moved there). I just think they have hardly a chance to get the NFL in their city.

 

[primetime]

You missed the city. Were you on Delaware? Elmwood? Lincoln parkway? Chippewa?

Main Street is the worst part of the downtown area.

I'm actually not sure. I was on whatever the nice strip was, a couple blocks from the MBTA Arena. I assumed it was Main Street because that's what the exit signs on the highway said. I should've qualified my statement with the fact that my observation of Buffalo (outside of that bar area) was mostly from the highway, though from other streets as well (though going through Lackawanna, which was probably never a nice area, to get to Orchard Park for the Bills-Fins game).

Don't take my comments as any sort of swipe against Buffalo, either. Believe me, I consider it a part of upstate NY, and therefore a part of my upstate pride, despite the fact it is further away from me than both NYC and Boston. My observation of Buffalo was of a dying city (which goes along with, unfortunately, the rest of my beloved upstate), which the demographic reports have supported. Buffalo just reminded me of a larger Schenectady with a border on Canada. I'm happy to hear that may not be the case, though.

Good to see you lived in Troy, though. A good deal of my friends hail from Watervliet and Troy, and I played hockey for a great deal of my life at the Frear Park facility (which, I believe, was shut down very recently, probably because of the extreme cold). Great city.

As for the topic, Toronto could, without a doubt, support an NFL team. Because, you know, they already do. They're called the Buffalo Bills. If you've ever gone to a game at Ralph Wilson Stadium, you'll notice alot of the season ticket holders are Canadians from Hamilton or Toronto. You'll see alot of Maple Leafs jerseys at Bills games, and alot of Bills jerseys at Maple Leafs games. The Bills' lack of season ticket sales can be traced to the emergence of the Sabres this year as a force in hockey, too. Buffalo fans are undoubtedly amongst the most passionate I have seen, regardless of the sport, but they seem to choose only one at a time. And, for now, that sport is hockey. A few years ago, the Sabres were declaring bankruptcy. It's cyclical. But it isn't helped by Ralph Wilson's age/incompetence.

 

[upstater1]

Away from football...

Two things of note:
1. As a Torontonian, I am privileged to drive along the Don Valley Parkway and see Toronto's beautiful skyline of prestige high rise residential and office buildings. However, the same cannot be said for Buffalo's skyline. The Central Business District skyline is a joke (no pun intended). I don't see how many people would want to flock into the city.
2. You mentioned that lofty condo's are proposed to be built. How many times have I heard that before? A new high rise residential building (Trump Towers - 1300 ft. tall) has been proposed, assessed, and given the go-ahead to be built here in Toronto and I am still waiting (commence date has been pushed to 2008). Presently, there are so many legal and political forces that delay or stop construction from happening. Don’t hold your breathe.

This is absurd. You're comparing one of North America's biggest cities to a small city in America. Have you ever been to Providence? Hartford? Kanasas City? St. Louis?

Skyline, are you kidding me?

This is like saying that Oklahoma City isn't New York. Yeah, no s... Sherlock. Seriously, I'm not trying to be hard on you, but why in the world compare the two at all.

As for Toronto, I'm up there frequently. Maybe you can tell me of a few more neighborhoods to hang out in, because frankly I've become bored with Queen and College streets. is there anything else? Because, Montreal it isn't.

As for condos, they are up and running. More are due to be built. Property values are up in the central corridor district by over 100% in the last 5 years.

 

[upstater1]

I'm actually not sure. I was on whatever the nice strip was, a couple blocks from the MBTA Arena. I assumed it was Main Street because that's what the exit signs on the highway said. I should've qualified my statement with the fact that my observation of Buffalo (outside of that bar area) was mostly from the highway, though from other streets as well (though going through Lackawanna, which was probably never a nice area, to get to Orchard Park for the Bills-Fins game).

Don't take my comments as any sort of swipe against Buffalo, either. Believe me, I consider it a part of upstate NY, and therefore a part of my upstate pride, despite the fact it is further away from me than both NYC and Boston. My observation of Buffalo was of a dying city (which goes along with, unfortunately, the rest of my beloved upstate), which the demographic reports have supported. Buffalo just reminded me of a larger Schenectady with a border on Canada. I'm happy to hear that may not be the case, though.

Good to see you lived in Troy, though. A good deal of my friends hail from Watervliet and Troy, and I played hockey for a great deal of my life at the Frear Park facility (which, I believe, was shut down very recently, probably because of the extreme cold). Great city.

As for the topic, Toronto could, without a doubt, support an NFL team. Because, you know, they already do. They're called the Buffalo Bills. If you've ever gone to a game at Ralph Wilson Stadium, you'll notice alot of the season ticket holders are Canadians from Hamilton or Toronto. You'll see alot of Maple Leafs jerseys at Bills games, and alot of Bills jerseys at Maple Leafs games. The Bills' lack of season ticket sales can be traced to the emergence of the Sabres this year as a force in hockey, too. Buffalo fans are undoubtedly amongst the most passionate I have seen, regardless of the sport, but they seem to choose only one at a time. And, for now, that sport is hockey. A few years ago, the Sabres were declaring bankruptcy. It's cyclical. But it isn't helped by Ralph Wilson's age/incompetence.

Yes, you were on Main Street. Even that revamped theater district you're talking about with the bars and restaurants is relatively dead. The HSBC Arena and the Dunn Tire baseball park are largely isolated with little to no foot traffic because of the pedestrian arcade. The only reason I go down there is to see movies at the multiplex on the arcade.

The city just got a multi-million dollar grant to reroute the subway and trolley cars in order to open up the street to car traffic again (it's been a pedestrian arcade for three decades, when it was open to cars, that area of town used to bustle).

Schenectady really isn't a good comparison. Buffalo is an old city with old money, and that doesn't really leave the city real quickly. Just so you know, I'm a New Englander, and I relocated here after checking out the city. Four years ago when I landed here, my job prospects gave me a lot of choice of where to live, not all of them good. It was between Ann Arbor MI, Miami FL, Oklahoma City, Lake Forest IL (hour north of Chicago), Rochester and Buffalo. I chose Buffalo after I saw the city.

By the way, there's nothing changed with the Bills season-ticket base. It actually increased last year. But Buffalo's ticket base is not anywhere near the total capacity of 78,000. They had so many sellouts in a row because people bought all the tickets. If you ask me, the problem this year was a mediocre team after many, many seasons of mediocre teams, and a lot of home games in December.

Lastly, JP Losman lives one street over from mine, and I've seen him occasionally at the bars and clubs on the street that splits ours. When he goes to one particular tapas place, almost everyone leaves him and girlfriend alone. No one walks up to him. When Ryan Miller walks in, he's absolutely jammed by people. Yup, everyone loves a winner. But ultimately this is still very much a Bills town.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Having an NFL team in Toronto or any other foreign country would also add an element salary structure, and taxability of income for players issue.

Depending on the country a team and players could have an unfair advantage or disadvantage in attracting players given the relative value of the dollar.

 

[upstater1]

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20070218/1045324.asp

Well, this is in response to some conversations CarolinaTony has been having with his boss who is formerly from Buffalo.

As I wrote earlier, in the last few years, the area is on the upswing with global headquarters from a few big companies moving into downtown, and now smaller ones as well. Condos are being sold all ove the place and the town is repopulating. Around the Sabres' arena, Bass Pro is building a big store, and lots of restaurants and bars are opening.