NFL.Com: Cheap Veteran Receivers in 2011?

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Brady was hit the 3rd fewest times of anyone in the league last year according to nfl.com. Clearly all these teams blitzing and disrespecting our deep threat didn't really make him pay with his health at all.

NFL Stats: by Team Category

If we lose guys like Mankins,Light and Kaczur it could change quickly...one year to the next always is different...could be a better OL...could be worse

 

[Sicilian]

If we lose guys like Mankins,Light and Kaczur it could change quickly...one year to the next always is different...could be a better OL...could be worse

Yes, that's possible, but unless you're planning on never throwing to him, a deep threat can cause your QB to get hit MORE too. If Brady is taking an extra second to wait for someone to get open deep, he's going to take more hits. I don't think a deep threat makes a tangible difference one way or the other on how often your QB takes punishment.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Yes, that's possible, but unless you're planning on never throwing to him, a deep threat can cause your QB to get hit MORE too. If Brady is taking an extra second to wait for someone to get open deep, he's going to take more hits. I don't think a deep threat makes a tangible difference one way or the other on how often your QB takes punishment.

I think if you look at the 2007 season you could see that opposing defenses did NOT blitz Brady for most of the season until the Eagles had the balls to do so when the latter games came about and thats when they said a 'blueprint' was made on how to shut down the Pats O.

With so many weapons at his disposal,no teams in the early going that year were going out to try and get to him before he threw the ball because there was so much deep talent between Moss,Stallworth and Gaffney and Welker in the slot that it was too risky....problem was for teams that it didnt help for the first 3 months of domination on the Pats O side...and that includes a running game that was far from scary with MaPhony at the front of a poor RB roster which was the weak link on that team that year..

I still believe more speed and talent at the perimeters by two lanky and talented receivers leads to less pressure and less sacks on the QB when you base it on the overall picture of any particular season.

 

[Sicilian]

I think if you look at the 2007 season you could see that opposing defenses did NOT blitz Brady for most of the season until the Eagles had the balls to do so when the latter games came about and thats when they said a 'blueprint' was made on how to shut down the Pats O.

With so many weapons at his disposal,no teams in the early going that year were going out to try and get to him before he threw the ball because there was so much deep talent between Moss,Stallworth and Gaffney and Welker in the slot that it was too risky.

But again, the numbers don't bear our any difference without a deep threat in 2010. Sure, we had Moss for four games, but he was hardly a factor, AND for the first eight games of the season we didn't have Mankins, and for the last half of the season we didn't have Neal. I think Brady's style of play keeps him from getting hit too often, regardless of having a Moss type or a team of Branch's.

Plus, in the Jets game (EDIT: to clarify, I mean the 2010 Jets playoff game), it wasn't the blitzes that did Brady in, it was the coverage (which I will grant MAY have been helped by a true deep threat). But that's another thing, if the deep threat isn't a difference maker, it doesn't help (see Tate). Finding a truly good deep threat WR is not easy.

 

[Oswlek]

I think if you look at the 2007 season you could see that opposing defenses did NOT blitz Brady for most of the season until the Eagles had the balls to do so when the latter games came about and thats when they said a 'blueprint' was made on how to shut down the Pats O.

With so many weapons at his disposal,no teams in the early going that year were going out to try and get to him before he threw the ball because there was so much deep talent between Moss,Stallworth and Gaffney and Welker in the slot that it was too risky.

Not so. The Jets blitzed like crazy in the season opener and NE stoned them, as did a few other teams as well. The Eagles just blitzed in a particular manner that gave NE trouble.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Not so. The Jets blitzed like crazy in the season opener and NE stoned them, as did a few other teams as well. The Eagles just blitzed in a particular manner that gave NE trouble.

The Jets may have blitzed more than any other team before the Eagles simply because no other team really had any idea of what those pieces on offense put together were going to do.....no one knew for sure that Randy Moss was back at his Viking days and no one knew what appeared to be an average to mediocre WR Wes Welker was after Miami traded him and no one knew if Stallworth or Gaffney would be any good to the overall WR corps.

By the end of that first game,teams had their eyes wide open knowing this was no ordinary team they would be facing weeks later.

The 2007 Patriots put a stamp on them being a dangerous team almost all year long AFTER all was said and done by easily disposing of the Jets that day.

 

[Oswlek]

The Jets may have blitzed more than any other team before the Eagles simply because no other team really had any idea of what those pieces on offense put together were going to do.....no one knew for sure that Randy Moss was back at his Viking days and no one knew what appeared to be an average to mediocre WR Wes Welker was after Miami traded him and no one knew if Stallworth or Gaffney would be any good to the overall WR corps.

By the end of that first game,teams had their eyes wide open knowing this was no ordinary team they would be facing weeks later.

The 2007 Patriots put a stamp on them being a dangerous team almost all year long AFTER all was said and done by easily disposing of the Jets that day.

We don't disagree, but you still haven't shown any evidence that no other team bothered with the blitz. SD blitzed plenty, as did Cleveland.

Frankly, the team that had the most success stopping NE all year barely blitzed at all.

NE doesn't need some "deep threat" to counteract the blitzing. They just needed better pass protection and more balance, ergo two investments each in RBs and OLs. Both those will have much more impact than some speedy WR.

 

[JoeSixPat]

The Patriots try to go the "cheap, veteran" receiver every year and it RARELY works out. They don't want to spend the $ on a big time, big play FREE AGENT receiver, so we SEASON TICKET holder fans are left with guys like Joey Galloway, Sam Aiken, Torry Holt, Donte Stallworth, Kelly Washington, Reche Caldwell, Jabar Gaffney, Tim Dwight, David Terrell, Dedric Ward, Donald Hayes, Tim Dwight, David Patten, Aaron Bailey...wow, what a list of stalwarts there. Of these guys, and I count fifteen (and this comes right from the Patriots web site), I say four were even MILDLY successful pass catchers - Patten, Stallworth, Caldwell, and Gaffney - the other guys were camp fodder and turned into fifth receivers/special teams guys - yay! And, it's not like this team had great receivers all those years, so these guys couldn't even break out in an average NFL receiving corps most years.
It comes down to these guys (Belichick, scouts, etc.) cannot evaluate wide receivers - see all these failed free agent signings and wasted draft picks (Brandon Tate, Julian Edelman, Matthew Slater, Chad Jackson, PK Sam, Bethel Johnson). They got Branch and Givens in 02, which was quite a haul, but of the 8 receivers they've drafted since Belichick has been in charge, only two have made considerable contributions. I'm not including Taylor Price because he barely played last season.
Perhaps, and I really think this is more like it - Belichick does not "VALUE" the position. He comes from a tradition of having guys like Webster Slaughter, Michael Jackon, Mark Carrier, Derrick Alexander, and Keenan McCardell as his top pass catching wideouts in Cleveland.
So, out of TWENTY FOUR free agent/draft wide receivers SIX have been effective RECEIVERS for the Patriots - that's a 25% success rate. I don't know how that compares to the rest of the league, but a supposed genius should have better than a 1/4 hit ratio...

You list a few dozen guys drafted and signed as free agents and assert that WR isn't a priority for BB?

Then why has he expended so much energy to find them?

The truth is EVERYTHING in the NFL is a crap shoot. The majority of draft picks don't pan out whether your name is Belichick or any other coach/GM.

Same with free agents - most other teams get the best years from them... they're available when their skills are on the downside but sometimes one is able to work a trade for them a la Welker, Moss or others.

The priority for the Patriots isn't to find the all around route runner/3rd down back that Brady uses to shred defenses - we're doing fine there and have pass catching RBs and TEs as well.

What we need is a guy who still has the speed to be a deep threat WR. In 2007 there were a lot of fans here who felt were were stocked at WR with Reche Caldwell leading the way. But Belichick went out and got Welker and Moss and Caldwell didn't even make the team.

This year Belichick will look for another deep WR - a small but important part of the puzzle that can help keep Ds honest and open up opportunities for other WRs and the running game, and keep pressure off the QB by pushing DBs back.

Unfortunately among the FAs there aren't too many that excite me - T.O's deep abilities are still there but I have a tough time seeing him keeping his ego in check. I'm hoping there's the potential for a trade that will fill that need for the Patriots, but I'm prepared for the fact that we may go into the season without a deep threat WR as we did last year.

 

[JoeSixPat]

We don't disagree, but you still haven't shown any evidence that no other team bothered with the blitz. SD blitzed plenty, as did Cleveland.

Frankly, the team that had the most success stopping NE all year barely blitzed at all.

NE doesn't need some "deep threat" to counteract the blitzing. They just needed better pass protection and more balance, ergo two investments each in RBs and OLs. Both those will have much more impact than some speedy WR.

It's not just about blitzing - it's about bringing DBs up closer in coverage to stymie a QB's options, putting pressure both on the QB and his short range WRs, TEs, and RBs.

The question of whether a team can play well without a deep threat WR has been answered though. The answer is "Yes".

The question of whether the lack of a deep threat WR can catch up with a team against better opponents - in the playoffs for example - is also a "yes".

 

[Oswlek]

It's not just about blitzing - it's about bringing DBs up closer in coverage to stymie a QB's options, putting pressure both on the QB and his short range WRs, TEs, and RBs.

The question of whether a team can play well without a deep threat WR has been answered though. The answer is "Yes".

The question of whether the lack of a deep threat WR can catch up with a team against better opponents - in the playoffs for example - is also a "yes".

I'll agree if we eliminate the term "deep threat" and go with "good wide receivers". There are few receivers in the game faster than Tate, so why isn't he considered a "deep threat"? And where were all those long plays to Moss when he was here that make people want him back?

If a guy can't get off the jam, it doesn't matter how fast he is or how far he can run. If a guy can't be relied on to run anything but a go or a post, he'll be neutralized very easily.

None of the last three playoff exits had anything to do with not having a "deep threat". In fact, I could make the case that overreliance on the "deep threat" was precisely what lead to the SB loss.

You need good receivers who can get open multiple ways who can beat multiple types of coverage. "Deep threat" is just a term that I find largely meaningless.

 

[FCB02062]

You list a few dozen guys drafted and signed as free agents and assert that WR isn't a priority for BB?

Then why has he expended so much energy to find them?

The truth is EVERYTHING in the NFL is a crap shoot. The majority of draft picks don't pan out whether your name is Belichick or any other coach/GM.

Same with free agents - most other teams get the best years from them... they're available when their skills are on the downside but sometimes one is able to work a trade for them a la Welker, Moss or others.

The priority for the Patriots isn't to find the all around route runner/3rd down back that Brady uses to shred defenses - we're doing fine there and have pass catching RBs and TEs as well.

What we need is a guy who still has the speed to be a deep threat WR. In 2007 there were a lot of fans here who felt were were stocked at WR with Reche Caldwell leading the way. But Belichick went out and got Welker and Moss and Caldwell didn't even make the team.

This year Belichick will look for another deep WR - a small but important part of the puzzle that can help keep Ds honest and open up opportunities for other WRs and the running game, and keep pressure off the QB by pushing DBs back.

Unfortunately among the FAs there aren't too many that excite me - T.O's deep abilities are still there but I have a tough time seeing him keeping his ego in check. I'm hoping there's the potential for a trade that will fill that need for the Patriots, but I'm prepared for the fact that we may go into the season without a deep threat WR as we did last year.

Remember all the Derrick Mason talk back in '05? This is a perfect example. Belichick supposedly coveted Mason, but the team didn't go the extra mile to sign him. Instead we got Tim Dwight - yippee! Put Mason on that 05, and especially that 06 team and I think the team has another trophy in the cabinet. The team spun it as thought they offered the same $ as Baltimore and Mason's wife wanted to go to Baltimore, but those in the know and who cover the team and the NFL daily have said this is baloney...
I would take Terrell Owens, sans the circus act....

 

[Oswlek]

Remember all the Derrick Mason talk back in '05? This is a perfect example. Belichick supposedly coveted Mason, but the team didn't go the extra mile to sign him. Instead we got Tim Dwight - yippee! Put Mason on that 05, and especially that 06 team and I think the team has another trophy in the cabinet. The team spun it as thought they offered the same $ as Baltimore and Mason's wife wanted to go to Baltimore, but those in the know and who cover the team and the NFL daily have said this is baloney...
I would take Terrell Owens, sans the circus act....

Who are the "those in the know" that you speak of? I've followed the team pretty closely and never heard that NE scrimped on their offer.

 

[FCB02062]

Who are the "those in the know" that you speak of? I've followed the team pretty closely and never heard that NE scrimped on their offer.

Curran, Felger, Michael Smith, the morons at ESPN, Judge, Prisco, etc.,....all of them at some time or another made snide remarks and innuendo in print or on the air regarding the actual #s and sincerity behind the team's offer to Derrick Mason. If you remember, the team immediately went into spin control and claimed it was Mason's wife who ultimately made the decision to go to Baltimore because she's from there or she has close family there - can't remember which one....

 

[Oswlek]

Curran, Felger, the morons at ESPN, Judge, Prisco, etc.,....all of them at some time or another made snide remarks and innuendo in print or on the air regarding the actual #s and sincerity behind the team's offer to Derrick Mason. If you remember, the team immediately went into spin control and claimed it was Mason's wife who ultimately made the decision to go to Baltimore because she's from there or she has close family there - can't remember which one....

OK, now I recall hearing a few veiled comments from these guys, but none of them came off as having any merit. I had interpreted them as just trying to pluck the "Cheap Kraft" string.

Certainly nothing ever hit home and looking at the list does nothing to dissuade my read.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Curran, Felger, Michael Smith, the morons at ESPN, Judge, Prisco, etc.,....all of them at some time or another made snide remarks and innuendo in print or on the air regarding the actual #s and sincerity behind the team's offer to Derrick Mason. If you remember, the team immediately went into spin control and claimed it was Mason's wife who ultimately made the decision to go to Baltimore because she's from there or she has close family there - can't remember which one....

Funny, I don't remember this team giving information out about anything much less a receiver who chose a different team. I do know that his wife's strong preference was widely reported . Where's your evidence that this was an exaggerated rumor started by the Patriots?

 

[JoeSixPat]

I'll agree if we eliminate the term "deep threat" and go with "good wide receivers". There are few receivers in the game faster than Tate, so why isn't he considered a "deep threat"? And where were all those long plays to Moss when he was here that make people want him back?

If a guy can't get off the jam, it doesn't matter how fast he is or how far he can run. If a guy can't be relied on to run anything but a go or a post, he'll be neutralized very easily.

None of the last three playoff exits had anything to do with not having a "deep threat". In fact, I could make the case that overreliance on the "deep threat" was precisely what lead to the SB loss.

You need good receivers who can get open multiple ways who can beat multiple types of coverage. "Deep threat" is just a term that I find largely meaningless.

Well, I think we all understand that speed ≠deep threat.

A deep threat is a WR with speed, who can get separation, have the confidence of his QB to have the ball thrown his way, and to make the catch - with enough frequency to keep the defense.... well, defensive.

But your points are all valid - and I actually think that I've been too harsh on Tate - and that he does have a chance of taking it to the next level, assuming he has Brady's confidence... If he becomes one of Brady's preferred targets DCs are really going to have to take notice (assuming Tate can get his job done)

I just also think that Belichick likes to see competition and doesn't want to rely solely on Tate for that role.


With Moss gone and Welker and so many other short pass options available, I'm not thinking that over-reliance on a deep WR is going to be a problem, as I agree with you that the lack of diversity in the offense was a weakness. As of now I think we need more diversity in the offense again - but this time as a needed deep threat.

 

[Oswlek]

Well, I think we all understand that speed ≠deep threat.

A deep threat is a WR with speed, who can get separation, have the confidence of his QB to have the ball thrown his way, and to make the catch - with enough frequency to keep the defense.... well, defensive.

But your points are all valid - and I actually think that I've been too harsh on Tate - and that he does have a chance of taking it to the next level, assuming he has Brady's confidence... If he becomes one of Brady's preferred targets DCs are really going to have to take notice (assuming Tate can get his job done)

I just also think that Belichick likes to see competition and doesn't want to rely solely on Tate for that role.


With Moss gone and Welker and so many other short pass options available, I'm not thinking that over-reliance on a deep WR is going to be a problem, as I agree with you that the lack of diversity in the offense was a weakness. As of now I think we need more diversity in the offense again - but this time as a needed deep threat.

I don't disagree with much on here, but I still think the whole notion of a "deep threat" is generic quick fix that fans toss out there, that is rarely a major issue in reality. Sure, if all you have is a bunch of Gronks and Anquan Boldins out there, you might be in need of someone to threaten the deeper parts of the field.

But NE's defense has plenty of speed and compare favorably as a unit to the 2003-2005 squad. The problem is trust, not speed.

Take Tate, for instance. As the year went on, it was clear that Brandon was rarely one of first couple reads. About the only time he was the top read was a designed deep ball and many of those were preceeded by a predictible fake end-around motion. Until defenses feel threatened by his short and intermediate routes, his speed advantage is negated by the mental advantage the defenders have.

Deion Branch was neve a burner in the Bethel Johnson mold, but he made quite a few deep plays because teams had to worry about his entire game. THAT is what needs to happen with NE's corps. Edelman, Tate, Price and Hernandez all have speed advantages over their defenders, and when NE can go into a game with Welker/Branch not perpetually the first reads those advantages will manifest themselves in the form of big plays.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

My favorite down the field threat ever from the 2000s decade wearing a Pats jersey was David Givens....we need another David Givens on this team from the FA market....he wasnt flashy and wasn't a media star but he just knew how to be where Tom wanted him to be and gave up his body to do so.

Yes you can call me nuts but I liked and would take a few years of Givens over one year of the 2007 Moss

 

[FCB02062]

Funny, I don't remember this team giving information out about anything much less a receiver who chose a different team. I do know that his wife's strong preference was widely reported . Where's your evidence that this was an exaggerated rumor started by the Patriots?

We all know the Patriots feed their media sycophants certain stories/information in an effort to gain favor with the fandom/public opinion. In return, certain people are given "special" access*

*Michael Holley.....

 

[Oswlek]

My favorite down the field threat ever from the 2000s decade wearing a Pats jersey was David Givens....we need another David Givens on this team from the FA market....he wasnt flashy and wasn't a media star but he just knew how to be where Tom wanted him to be and gave up his body to do so.

Yes you can call me nuts but I liked and would take a few years of Givens over one year of the 2007 Moss

He is already on the roster, named Taylor Price.