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NFL catching on to Patriots vulnerability to speed rushers

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by JoeSixPat, Feb 18, 2008.

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  1. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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  2. patsgo

    patsgo Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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  3. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

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    That's why I'm starting to hope for Clady in the draft. Shore up the OL. We've seen that if Brady has time, they simply can't lose.

    This OL has gotten a little too much credit for Brady's ability to avoid sacks by maneuvering within the pocket and getting rid of the ball quickly. They are an above average group made better by Tom, but there is room for upgrade.

    Fill the holes on defense via free agency and 2nd round on. First round presents an opportunity to upgrade the OL in the present and for the future.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2008
  4. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The thing is that I disagree with the article. It wasn't the speed at DE that hurt the Pats as much in the Super Bowl, but the pressure up the middle. If the Pats were able to contain Justin Tuck, I think Brady would have been able to allude Umineyra and Strahan like he has done with a lot of speed rushers. Brady can allude speed rushers a lot of the time by stepping up in the pocket, but if the pocket is collapsed there is nothing Brady can do.
     
  5. bruschimania

    bruschimania Rookie

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    It's times like this that I really miss Daniel Graham. He was a tank at TE that could help take some of the faster rushers out of the game.
     
  6. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

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    In also agree it was the problems up the middle. People have been running outside of Light and Kaczur for ages. And missing them when Brady steps up in the pocket. What happens when Brady doesn't step up in the pocket? Super Bowl loss.
     
  7. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

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    That's a really great and accurate point.

    It's very discouraging to take a look at Unorginal's awesome OL breakdown and see that Mankins - well, like everybody else on the line that night - simply couldn't handle Tuck.

    I'm guessing if Brady's ankle had been better, they would've rolled him out a few more times like they did on that bomb to Moss on the last drive that they almost connected.

    But still - the easiest way to upgrade this OL is to draft Long or Clady. Since Long probably won't be available, it's Clady. I think your point is accurate, but I still think they have to draft a tackle - and early - if they're looking to upgrade the OL.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2008
  8. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The Oline does needs something but at this point I'm not sure what it is.
    Why did Mankins have such a bad day? Is it something that can be
    corrected? The Oline does well the whole year ... has a few problems
    but in the superbowl just comes apart? Why?

    Is Giants pass rush just that good ... so much better that rest of league?

    If PATs /Giants palyed again today with same players ... would the Oline
    have as much problem?

    It would a waste to use a high draft pick on an Oline guy if corrections
    can be made to fix a problem. PATs have a good Oline.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2008
  9. BPF

    BPF In the Starting Line-Up

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    I agree 100% here. Great point, because a QB can step up to avoid outside rushers and your OT's can push them behind the play but outside pressure coupled with up the middle pressure is a deadly combo.
     
  10. BradyManny

    BradyManny Pro Bowl Player

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    I disagree - I don't think it would be a waste to draft a potential franchise tackle, upgrade the rightside and plan for life after Light (signed through 2010) in the process. But I agree with your sentiments on the whole - I've bolded the thought you had which has crossed my mind many times as well. Is the Giants DL just that good? I don't know the answer.
     
  11. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    While I think You could upgrade LT a little bit.....You are not going to make that much improvement there. Matt Light is a Close to Pro Bowl Caliber LT he may have only got there because Tom Makes him look even better but he is Close to that kind of talent.

    I would say that Yes The Giants pass rush is that good. They led the league in sacks so we were not the only one they gave trouble too. But that alone would not have been enough to make the O-line look that bad. They also had easily there worst game as a unit all year and maybe since the max lane days. Than add in the fact that Tom did not have his normal mobility and you get the disaster that we saw.
     
  12. Joker

    Joker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Neal was out in the Bowl, with Hochstein filling in...perhaps there was some confusion inside with assignments with the zone blocking scheme, but Mankins is a solid pro so I can give him a pass.

    In my opinion, one of the tackles HAS to be a lockdown, shutout type. Now LIght is an expereinced pro but he was clearly overmatched at LT in that game. My preference is the Patriots try to make THIS position on the line their strength, so Brady doesn't have to worry about his blind side. The right side can be taken care of by a combination of a more experienced O'Callaghan in tandem with the blocking TE, freeing Kaczur to move inside to RG. Neal is proving to be brittle and would seem to be better served playing as a reserve.

    What to do with Light? Good question...what ever they can work out that gets him OFF this line at LT is fine with me.
     
  13. DW Toys

    DW Toys In the Starting Line-Up

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    I have to disagree. I think they made a mistake starting Kcazur over O'Callaghan who handled Strahan one on one mostly in game 17. Why? Then in the SB they could help inside.

    We need more D help. The O line didn't have the responsibility to stop Eli...."can you believe it"....Manning from scoring the last TD. The O Line had allowed few sacks and a solid performance for 18 games. I think Neal going down hurt and was Bradys' ankle more than an issue. Why waste a top ten pick on an O Line guy when the could be had like a WR in mid to later rounds. Is Clady an upgrade? I doubt it, at least for a few years.

    The last quarter I saw something in Thomas that had been missing most of the year but Colvin being out hurt any speedrush in getting to Manning. I think Vrabel had been playing hurt. He was not right. Can't tell me Manning is faster than Jason Campbell.

    What I would give to see Jared Allen or for cheaper (but older), a Jason Taylor added to the D-line/OLB corp.

    How about coverage? It was coverage that killed us. There was a decent rush on Manning. Maybe not as fast as we like but how open were some of the NY...."can you believe it".... Giants receivers? Boss-big play? Tyree-bigger play (although covered somewhat)? Smith on third down and out of bounds with no time outs!!!! Then the killer, Hobbs one on one with Plex in the endzone?

    No.... it's D help needed. I think the O Line learns from this and gets better.
    DW Toys
     
  14. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I am not sure that Kazcur would easily make that move to guard. He is a little lanky for guard. While I agree Neal has been a little fragile in his career I think he is one of the best pulling guards in the league. How many times have you seen him 10+yards up field making a block that springs a big screen?
     
  15. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The problem was the O-line. The defense was fine.
     
  16. kolbitr

    kolbitr Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Agreed, but the question remains, why was their performance so bad in that game? How on earth were they able to do so much better in week 17, while missing a bunch of guys? Either Hochstein was a horribly weak link, or the Giants did new things that DS and the boys were completely unprepared for, or the Giants executed just that much better that day, or...? What else?
     
  17. chrisfx811

    chrisfx811 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    The Pats didn't establish a run game, which allowed the Giants to pin em back and come after Brady.

    Brady wasn't as mobile as normal, which in his case is really bad.

    The Giants did a great job of pressuring the middle once the outside guys drew the attention of the line.
    Tuck's a beast, but coupled with Osi and Strahan, makes it even worse.

    The Pats don't have a hog type o-line that can just wall off sections of the pocket the way some of the bigger lines can like Dallas, Philly, Baltimore, etc.

    Overall it was a terrible combination, coupled with what seemed to be a lack of adjustment on BB/McDaniel's part to offset what was happening.
     
  18. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here's my opinion, and it's just an opinion....

    Logan Mankins choked in the big game. He just couldn't take the pressure. He was a turnstile all game, for anyone the Giants sent at him. I hope that Mankins will perform better then next time he's in that situation, and that he's not a natural-born choker. It's one thing to pull a McNabb in the Super Bowl, it's another to pull a Peyton Manning in almost every postseason.

    Of course, I reserve the right to completely drop this opinion if it comes out that Mankins was hiding some major injury.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2008
  19. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I don't think the D was fine..83 yards in a bit over 2 minutes?? There are a number of places improvement is needed... offense and defense..
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2008
  20. VOODOOZF

    VOODOOZF Practice Squad Player

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    The Patriots defense is getting old + needs held. That is espically true if they lose Samuel in the off season.

    While it would be nice to get some help on the o-line. Their main concern is clearly to get younger and faster on defense.
     
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