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NFL admits to screwing Hobbs

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PatsSox363804, Jan 26, 2007.

  1. PatsSox363804

    PatsSox363804 Rookie

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    http://www.profootballtalk.com/

    In response to anitem in our Conference Championship Ten-Packregarding a key pass interference call on Patriots cornerback Ellis Hobbs thatallowed the Colts to complete an 18-point comeback and knot the game at 21, amember of PFT Planet has alerted us to a January 25, 2007 "Q&A" onJaguars.com in which Vic Ketchman writes that theNFL has acknowledged that a bad call was made.

    Writes Ketchman,in response to a question that chastised him for suggesting that face-guardingis still forbidden:

    "Face-guardingwas discontinued several years ago and I completely missed it. I talked toDean Blandino in the league office and he confirmed what you're saying. Blandino, by the way, was in the replay booth at the Patriots-Colts game. Ellis Hobbs should not have been flagged for pass-interference. He didn'tmake contact with the receiver and in no way did Hobbs impede Reggie Wayne'sability to catch the pass. Blandino confirmed that the incorrect call wasmade. It advanced the ball from the Patriots' 19-yard line to the one-yardline and was the big play in a touchdown drive that led to a two-pointconversion and a tie game at 21-21. Referee Bill Carollo made no referenceto face-guarding in his explanation, but CBS analyst Phil Simms did. Apparently, he, too, doesn't know the rule no longer exists. The next time youhear a TV analyst say, 'he wasn?t playing the ball,' think of the Hobbs play,then turn down the sound."

    Make no mistakeabout it, it was a key call. And, to their credit, we haven't heard apublic peep from the "no class" Pats about the play.

    Gee, what wouldNapolian have done if that phantom flag had been thrown on a member of theColts' defense?"


    Bittersweet, to say the least.
  2. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    Yup - this team and its fans generally don't whine and moan like other team owners and fans.

    We know that bad calls are part of the game. They do happen. We've benefitted from some and been hurt, and sometimes they happen at the worst times.

    As fans we're also smart enough to know that we need to overcome bad calls and that we had a chance to do exactly that, but we fell short.

    It's the no whining/no excuses mentality of this team and the fans that sets us apart. That makes me feel pretty good even if we did get screwed on a call.
  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Maybe BB or SP can get put on the competition committee... too bad they blew this call.. but I expect to hear little crying out of Foxboro.
  4. WestPat

    WestPat Rookie

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    I expect no crying or whining from the Pats, they leave that rubbish to Polian and the Colts.
    The fans should take the same clue from the organization, no crying or whining, bad calls happens , and teams should overcome them .
  5. Fanfrom1960

    Fanfrom1960 Rookie

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    So, it's all BS about the defender having to turn around and make a play on the ball. In other words, he can keep his back completely to the ball and it should be no call. Seemed pretty stupid to me that it ever was a rule. I guess nowadays you have to blow out a team to keep it "referee proof".
  6. indycolts685

    indycolts685 Rookie

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    while I agree the calls were bad, the Hobbs play happened on a 2nd and 7 so there was still a chance the Colts could have scored, as far as the Caldwell play, I have no argument there, i was setting right there in that corner endzone and was thinking that could have been called PI and I went home and watched my tivo and yes it was a very bad no call..
  7. PrairiePat

    PrairiePat Rookie

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    #32 Jersey

    Much as I'd love to agree, I think that's only half right - the TEAM doesn't whine too much about bad calls, but the fans are another story.

    C'mon, there were about 100 threads after last year's Denver game whining about the officiating, and another 50 after the SuperBowl (which we weren't even involved in). We have a current thread here where someone tracked down an official from a game -30- years ago and pissed on his lawn :eek:, and several others talking about how the 2 PI calls/non-calls screwed us over in the Indy game.

    Let's not put ourselves on a pedestal here, bad calls will always draw the ire of die-hard fans like the group on this board, that's just human nature.
  8. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    They screwed Caldwell too! Had the refs thrown a flag, the ball would have been placed at the one yard line and Dillon would have walked in for a touchdown. Game over.
  9. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So, in other words, twice the refs tried to hand the game to the Colts (see 2005 Colts v. Steelers). It's just that this time the Colts were actually able to take the gift they were handed. [No, I'm not blaming them entirely for the loss, just saying that getting those calls right could have been enough to prevent the Colts from winning.]

    I guess PATSNUTme's avatar really does exist. :enranged:

    If this isn't enough ammo for rule changes, I don't know what will be.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2007
  10. Isaac

    Isaac Rookie

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    Not exactly, if a defender isn't playing the ball then any contact will result in a PI flag. If he is playing the ball, then contact will be judged incidental unless it's something obvious. Hobbs played that poorly, you really are supposed to turn for the ball.
  11. vyrago

    vyrago Rookie

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    But there was NO contact, unless you're counting the ball hitting Hobbs in the back of the head as contact.
  12. PatsFaninAZ

    PatsFaninAZ Rookie

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    Not for nothing, but that's simply not even close to the rule. Contact by a player not playing the ball remains incidental unless it "restricts the receiver's opportunity to make a catch."

    It's true that when one player is playing the ball and the other is not, the defender loses the ordinary presumption that contact is incidental. When people talk about "faceguarding," that is generally what it means in the NFL. Faceguarding itself is not a penalty. But if you faceguard, you lose the presumption of inadvertent contact. That's all it means though -- it doesn't mean any contact is a penalty. It just means there is no presumption. The ref has to call it 50/50 whether the contact was incidental.

    Bottom line, on the Hobbs play:

    1) There had to be contact.

    2) The contact (not the "faceguarding") had to the cause of the receiver's inability to catch the ball. (On this second issue, you have to assume that receivers can make very difficult catches.)

    Seems pretty clear to everyone that saw a replay, including the league, that 1 did not exist. If there was some contact, I think no. 2 is close.
  13. Fanfrom1960

    Fanfrom1960 Rookie

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    It seems like the bigger picture is that the rules have become so bizarre, petty and arcane that ticky tack calls are being made all the time and will continue. Is this Polian's legacy, or what? Let'em f'in play. Bring back Night Train Lane.

    Edit, this is one place where I like the NBA better. In huge games like this, you have to practically take a guy's head off under the basket to get a call, especially late in games. And, David Stern is a great commish and the NFL needs someone with his gumption.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2007
  14. indycolts685

    indycolts685 Rookie

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    Game would have been far from over, there was 7:42 left in the game and the score would have been 35-28 if the pats get a td, while I agree it was a bad no call the game was far from over they way the colts were moving the ball, what surprises me most is Caldwell didn't get upset at all, he didn't even argue the call
  15. Dragda

    Dragda Yes, it's really me... PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #93 Jersey

    Colts players are allowed to tackle and hump the legs of receivers as long as they are playing the Pats. But it is illegal for a Pats DB to look at a Colts player if he is in the endzone. It makes perfect sense to me :eek:

    Bottom line is that if you can't stop the run in a playoff game when you really need to, you won't win. The Colts were able to stop the run. We weren't. No excuses, the Colts beat us. Like others have said, bad calls happen.
  16. psychoPat

    psychoPat Role Player PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Until now i've been able to handle the loss pretty well ... starting at the moment
    of the game-ending interception.

    This, though, is devastating.
    Especially coming after the zebra fiasco in Denver to end last season.

    Because the officiating in the playoffs up until Sunday had been minimalist ...
    and therefore good ...
    i swallowed my ire at the this call, and other non-calls ...
    and bought the familiar old "faceguarding" story.

    So now i have to think that the league didn't so much clean up its officiating act
    ... as, mask its intent and activities better
    - to avoid another firestorm of criticism and contempt like after the 2006 playoffs.

    Y'all are right, that it is some compensation to know that the team we love doesn't stoop
    to Polian-esque *****ing and moaning ...
    but just swallows our medicine.

    IndyColts685, maybe that is why Caldwell played it straight.

    But i am beginning to wonder
    how much of "directed outcomes"
    my passion for pro football can continue to stomach.
  17. Dragda

    Dragda Yes, it's really me... PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #93 Jersey

    I can't agree with this at all. I stopped watching the NBA because of the officiating. They don't call the game the same for all players. I saw superstars get calls all the time with no contact while the marginal player gets hacked an no-call. Traveling calls are another issue. In the NCAA everyone gets called for traveling. Not so in the NBA.

    I do agree with your point that once in the playoffs, it had better be a serious/obvious infraction the warrant a flag. We aren't seeing this at all times. We enjoyed this in SB36, however.
  18. shmessy

    shmessy Maude Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Remember the Chicago game when the Bears CB faceguarded Chad Jackson and there was no call - because there was no contact.

    That was a more flagrant face guard and goes to show that face guarding without contact is no penalty.
  19. feelthepain

    feelthepain Banned

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    Well it's not like the Pats haven't had their share of bad calls go their way in three SB winning post seasons!
  20. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    No more than the Dolphins have had in their three SB winni---

    Wait.

    Never mind.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2007
  21. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    ya except this is the 2nd seaosn in a row with the denver game and now indy.
  22. PatsSox363804

    PatsSox363804 Rookie

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    They should have officials in the booth that have all the angles and have the authority to over rule the official on the field for every close call in every playoff game. Period. Even if it goes against the Pats I want the games called correctly.
  23. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    F2F/PP, I completely agree and feel the same way.

    I was over the loss until now. I've gone from being pissed to accepting it to now being MONUMENTALLY pissed right now.
  24. Bella*chick

    Bella*chick Addicted to the light

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    Oddly, this makes me even prouder of the team. SO much to overcome and we came so close to doing it.

    I truly believe we are the best football team ever and the best organization in all of sports.
  25. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Let's all be honest here though. Pass Int or no Pass Int, the Colts would have gone down the field and scored anyway with the way our D was playing.
  26. Hamtown

    Hamtown Rookie

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    I Knew That Face Guarding Was B.s.!

    This just hit the media! Damn-it! I knew that we got screwed! GO PATS!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It’s a second-and-seven play on the Patriots 19-yard line. Peyton Manning sets up behind center, checks the coverage and calls for the snap. He takes a three step drop and fires the football into the end zone, aimed for wideout Reggie Wayne, who’s given Ellis Hobbs the slip and is streaking down the sideline for a touchdown catch.

    But Hobbs stays with the Colts No. 2 receiver. He closes on Wayne, chopping his feet to avoid bumping into the wideout, a sure penalty since his back is to the passer. Wayne’s eyes widen, indicating the ball is on its way. Free from contact, Hobbs jumps up but doesn’t turn to look for the football, which strikes Hobbs’ left biceps from behind and falls to the turf dead.

    Penalty flags fly, and referee Bill Carollo turns on his mic to let everyone know that the penalty’s on the “Defense. Automatic first down. The ball will be placed at the 1-yard line.” Manning hits former Patriot Dan Klecko for a 1-yard touchdown pass. A two-point conversion follows, tying it 21-21.

    “Face-guarding,” said CBS analyst and former Giants quarterback Phil Simms during the replay. “Ellis Hobbs jumps up, just tries to get in the way of Reggie Wayne. Does not see the football. Does not play it. Easy call.”

    Not so, according to replay official Dean Blandino, who joined Bob Boylston in the booth that day.

    In a recent posting by Vic Ketchman, Jaguars.com senior editor, Ketchman responded to a fan’s posting about the play, writing, “You are absolutely correct. Face-guarding was discontinued several years ago and I completely missed it.”

    Apparently, Ketchman had already responded to questions about the play, attributing the call to face-guarding just like Simms and countless fans across the nation who tuned in to watch the most viewed AFC Championship game in over 20 years.
    There is no NFL rule against face-guarding.

    “I talked to Dean Blandino in the league office and he confirmed what you’re saying,” wrote Ketchman. “Ellis Hobbs should not have been flagged for pass-interference. He didn’t make contact with the receiver and in no way did Hobbs impede Reggie Wayne’s ability to catch the pass. Blandino confirmed that the incorrect call was made. … Referee Bill Carollo made no reference to face-guarding in his explanation, but CBS analyst Phil Simms did. Apparently, he, too, doesn’t know the rule no longer exists. The next time you hear a TV analyst say, ‘he wasn’t playing the ball,’ think of the Hobbs play, then turn down the sound.”
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2007
  27. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    But that's the thing--even if they could have, that doesn't mean they would have. For all you know, they could have had Joseph Addai run it up the middle and then fumble. Or they might have missed the first down, and then Seymour (or Wright, etc.) could have blocked the ensuing kick.

    But asking a D to stop any team's O three times from the one-yard line is asking for far too much, especially on such an awful, awful call.
  28. Isaac

    Isaac Rookie

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    I didn't say that it should have been PI, clearly it was an incorrect call since there was no contact. I was just clarifying that a defender should turn and look towards the ball so that contact that occurs won't be called against him.

    His poor technique probably did cost him the flag in this case, even though he didn't deserve it.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2007
  29. Isaac

    Isaac Rookie

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    Yes, pardon me, you are right that I wasn't using the precise term when I said "incidental". Nonetheless my point holds that if a defender is playing the ball most contact (except blatant armbarring and such) isn't called while if they don't play the ball, then just about any contact seems to be called. Unfortunately the refs blew it and called Hobbs when there wasn't any contact, but it wouldn't have been called if he had played proper technique and looked for the ball.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2007
  30. RyanTheColtsFan

    RyanTheColtsFan Rookie

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    Anyone have real proof of this besides some sour grapes Axe Vic column?

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