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NFL 2012 Receiving Corps Power Rankings

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  1. pherein

    pherein Rookie

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    NFL 2012: Receiving Corps Power Rankings | Football Nation


    Interesting where Pittsburg is #4 on this list. SF is ranked above NYG and Lions, and that the power team rankings that are out, are not more reflective of WR core stats.
    Seeing that QB ratings are all the rage.

    Prime Numbers: the stats that win and lose NFL games
    Prime Numbers: the stats that win and lose NFL games | Football Nation

    Love the new term being used "pass catchers". Seen that used here before as well. Seems appropriate to the new age of football.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  2. Deus Irae

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    I wish those ranking were true. Maybe they will be by the end of the year.


    There's no way I'd put the Patriots above the Saints or Packers right now, though, just to look at the next two teams on the list.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  3. Salva135

    Salva135 Rookie

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    These ratings/rankings are pretty awful. That said, the Jets, Bills, and Dolphins are ranked 28, 29, and 32, respectively. :rofl:
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  4. Rob0729

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    I disagree. We are talking about receiving corp which excludes one of the best Saints receivers in Darren Sproles because he is a RB. The Pats' receiving corp is definitely better than the Saints' receiving corp without Sproles.
  5. patchick

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    The Packers have a tremendous WR corps, but unless you accept Jermichael Finley's self-image, the Patriots have a legitimate claim to the top spot. They have two legitimate difference-makers in Welker and Gronk, and Lloyd and Hernandez are impressive as #3 and 4 options.

    (Obviously, Lloyd's impact is yet to be seen, but I think it's a lot more reasonable to project from available evidence than to pretend he's not on the roster, or to just use last year's roster -- as the author clearly did in listing Jake Ballard as the Giants' #1 TE. ;))
  6. Deus Irae

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    First, I think we can admit that the author rigged the game by excluding the RBs. Second, you're right. We disagree.

    Until I see this Patriots group in action, there's no way I can put it above any team that was above it last year, and I'd even be tempted to lower the group in the face of other competition that's remained together. There are too many variables, as the Chad Johnson experiment should have taught us all.

    Or, to put it in a way that's more Patfans.com specific, last year, people were talking about Welker being redundant because of the TEs (I disagreed, for the record), yet this year we shouldn't think about how all the new players will work together?

    Further, that line

    was really, really stupid, and demonstrates why we should be ignoring this article for the trash it is.
  7. Rob0729

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    I don't think he rigged the game. RBs are not part of a receiving corp. Never will be even if you have an excellent receiving RB. Any team's receiving corp only consists of two groups - WRs and TEs.

    Also, even with Sproles you can make a good argument for the Pats' receiving corp being better than the Saints especially with the Pats adding Lloyd and Gaffney and the Saints losing Meachum.

    Lastly, I don't think the Ochocinco comparisons to Lloyd, Gaffney, and Stallworth is valid. Ochocinco failed because he couldn't grasp the Pats' system and read defenses. We know for a fact that Lloyd, Gaffney, and Stallworth all know the Pats' system intimately and can read defenses. Ochocinco failed because the Pats misjudge whether he would be able to grasp the Pats' system, not because his skills eroded. There is not a single receiver on the roster right now where the Pats have that worry.
  8. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I can't get on board with that approach, because it creates a consistent bias of undervaluing teams that made additions. This is a PROJECTION, which requires making some guesses about the future. Given all available information, we can reasonably expect the Patriots' slot receiver, TE & H-back positions to be among the very best in the league, and their top two wideout slots to be at least respectable out of the group of Lloyd, Gaffney, Branch and Stallworth.

    That said, I agree with you that leaving out RBs creates another kind of unacceptable bias, underrating offenses like NO's. But the Patriots' backfield stacks up pretty well there, too; Woodhead is no Sproles, but he's in the next tier.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  9. Deus Irae

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    Of course he rigged the game. He took 86 catches out of the argument in the case of Sproles, and another 50 in the case of Thomas. That's 136 catches getting pulled out of the Saints passing game, right there.

    No, you can't, because you're still ignoring Thomas.

    Johnson failed. The reason is irrelevant to the point being made.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  10. TyronePoole

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    There isn't a GM in the league that wouldn't trade their receiving corps in a heartbeat for Gronk, Welker, Hernandez, Lloyd, Gaffney etc.

    It's not really even close
  11. BSR

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    I agree with Deus that Sproles should be counted as a receiver. It seems silly not to count one of the biggest weapons in the passing game as a receiver. In that offense, he is a receiver.
  12. Deus Irae

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    I don't think undervaluing. I think it's acknowledging that there's really no fair way we can project with such a significant turnover in the cast, because neither Lloyd nor Gaffney is a Randy Moss in his prime or some stiff who's barely in the league. I love the signings, and I love the potential. I just acknowledge that it might not be quite what it's cracked up to be.

    Woodhead's catch numbers in his 3 years: 8, 34, 18. I love the potential of the little guy, and I was calling him the team's best RB in 2010, but let's not go crazy here. He's not shown himself to be on a tier even with Thomas, nevermind with Sproles.
  13. Rob0729

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    So when he ranks the RBs they must exclude him. He can't be a RB if he is a receiver. Facts are facts. The receiving corp consist of only WR and TEs. When you group them, that is how it is grouped.



    Seriously?!? Brees passed for about 250 more yards and seven more TDs than Brady last season. The Pats' receivers are significantly better than last year and the Saints' receiving corp is slightly worse with or without the RBs. So you don't think that replacing Ochocinco with Lloyd, Gaffney, and Stallworth gives you any realistic argument that the Pats' receiving corp has made the jump to overtake the Saints' receiving corp? C'mon. That is ridiculous. I think you can make a strong argument for either corp if you go by your standards and count the RBs (don't forget that Addai has proven himself to be a pretty good receiving RB and Woodhead has proven to be a pretty good one).



    Seriously?!? Johnson failed because of the one factor that has plagued WRs who have come to NE forever - the complexity of the playbook. Players like Donald Hayes, Doug Gabriel, Joey Galloway, etc. have all failed in the Pats' system because they couldn't get the playbook. It is a common theme with WRs who fail in NE. That makes the reason why very relevant.

    We know for a fact that this issue will not be a factor with Lloyd, Stallworth, or Gaffney. None of these guys are particularly that old that age is a factor. We know pretty much what we are going to get from these guys unlike with Ochocinco.
  14. Deus Irae

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    Nonsense

    Yes, seriously.

    Again, yes, seriously, and the playbook thing has been debunked already. If Johnson goes on to good success after failing to "get the playbook" in New England, he'll be the very first WR in the league to have done it.
  15. Rob0729

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    I wouldn't.

    First as I stated, based on standard NFL groupings, RBs are not part of a receiving corp.

    Second, where does it end? We will have to count Woodhead and Ridley as receivers too. They both caught passes last year. You have to then add any RB who caught a ball last year or is capable of catching a ball this year. You can't use a subjective rule that one RB is part of a receiving corp because he caught X number of balls or gained Y number of yards. Then the rankings because even more arbitrary than you and Deus think.
  16. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    But even if you're projecting "not quite what it's cracked up to be," that's still a projection! You can't just write in a zero for any player who wasn't with the team last year.

    The way I figure it, even a "not quite what it's cracked up to be" for Lloyd + Gaffney should be a major step up from the 2011 offering of injured-Branch + Ocho.
  17. Rob0729

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    You can't be serious about the learning playbook thing being garbage. In the Super Bowl, did Deion Branch have to tell Ochocinco where to line up because Ochocinco lost a step or that he didn't know where he was supposed to line up on that play? In fact, the Patriots have said they feel that Ochocinco has a lot of talent, but he couldn't learn the system. Or how about when Brady had to chew Joey Galloway out on the sidelines of a game because he couldn't make the proper adjustments. It isn't just the playbook it is the adjustment for the presnap reads and knowing the play adjustments based on that.

    If you want to argue that guys like Ochocinco, Donald Hayes (who admitted that his problems had to do with him not being able to grasp the playbooks), Galloway, etc. failed because they didn't know the playbook or understand how to read the defense and make the adjustments, it doesn't matter. It is a common theme among failed veteran WRs in New England and something we don't have to worry about with the current crop of receivers.
  18. KontradictioN

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    Same here. And there's no way that I'd put San Fran above the Giants and Lions.
  19. Rob0729

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    Yeah, based on that logic about half the teams in the league get an incomplete and they can realistically rank about 12 teams who pretty much have their entire receiving corp in tact. All these preseason rankings are based on past history of players and what people expect out of these players all season.

    Last year there wasn't a huge difference between the Pats' and Saints' receiving corps. The Pats were more top heavy and the Saints had more quality depth. The Saints were definitely better, but not worlds better. This offseason the Pats improved the top of the roster (Lloyd over Ochocinco or actually Branch who was WR #2) and improved the depth (Galloway over Ochocinco, Branch or Stallworth over whoever the #4 WR that week was). The Saints' receiving corp is virtually the same other than they lost Robert Meachum.

    Again, I can see a valid argument for either corp if you add RBs as receivers. The Pats probably have the most improved receiving corp in the league or at least in the top three and they had arguably the second best receiving corp last year.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
  20. Rob0729

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    I would agree with you about San Fran. I don't know how you could give Moss a B- grade at this point. The last time he played, he was awful.
  21. BlueThunder

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    If Vereen is healthy this season, I'd expect him to add a few yards to the Pats passing game, especially having Josh back as OC.

    The above is just an opinion....

    "Vereen has nice soft hands and shows a good ability to catch the ball. He caught 74 passes in his career at Cal, including 6 for touchdown. He adjusts to throws pretty cleanly, and doesn’t drop a lot of passes. He secures the ball well before making a move. Vereen ran quite an array of different routes at Cal, more than your typical back. He understands the passing game and will be effective right away in this area in the NFL. "
  22. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's pretty much where I am. By the rules of the article, which didn't consider RBs as pass catchers, I'd rank the Patriots #1. They were probably #3 last year with bubkes at wideout; replace bubkes with Brandon Lloyd and Jabar Gaffney and they eke out a lead in the OIFL (Offseason Imaginary Football League). But factor in pass-catching RBs and the Saints take the crown. They're the best in the league in that department hands down, though I do predict more production in the passing game from the Pats backfield this year, with BJGE out and McDaniels in.

    Once fall comes and the NFL replaces the OIFL, of course, lots could change for both teams. E.g. how will the coaching change and defensive suspensions affect the Saints' offense?
  23. Deus Irae

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    And I'm not doing that. It's not as if I'm saying that we can only rate the Patriots corps in the absence of Lloyd/Gaffney/Johnson/Stallworth. I'm simply saying that we can't assume, or even fairly argue, a leap over other great receiving groups at this time.

    To give an example, we can actually look to Lloyd. Brady is on record as having said that he kept looking away from Lloyd because Lloyd wasn't open in his time window. When he went back and looked at the film, he found that Lloyd was, in fact, getting open on his routes, it was just not in the same speed/manner that Brady was looking for. So, how do we determine that will mesh well? I think it's a great sign, and I've said so. But, what if it becomes Chad Johnson part 2, and we never get past hearing about how close they are?

    I agree, and I think time will tell, but there are too many unknowns right now to be ranking them over the Saints and Packers, IMO. If the Patriots are running 2/2/1 all the time, for example, the only significant difference is going to be Lloyd.
  24. Deus Irae

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    Of course I can, and history shows it. The playbook is talked about as being difficult, and by players in the league, so I'm not saying it's not. That's not what you're arguing, though. I've asked this question before. So far, nobody's found a single example:

    Give examples of a WR who thrived before getting to NE (BB era), struggled with the playbook in NE, and then went on to thrive elsewhere in the league.
  25. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    Thanks pherein.

    patsfaninpittsburgh wasn't Edgar Cayce in a past life...but did consider staying at a Holiday Inn this past week while on business.
  26. Rob0729

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    Talk about rigging the system. That isn't exactly a fair question. Many of the veterans who failed in this system never played for another team after the Pats like Donald Hayes and Joey Galloway. Bethel Johnson arguably had his best year with the Vikings after he left, but he still sucked with the Vikes. Ochocinco could prove you wrong this year.

    The problem with your theory is that many of the players regardless the system after they leave the Pats for poor play never play again in the league -see Adalius Thomas and Shawn Springs. Many teams feel that if a player can't fit in with Brady and Belichick, they cannot fit in anywhere.

    But who said that is the only standard you can use to prove that many WRs struggle with the playbook. Donald Hayes came out and said he did. It was clear that Ochocinco had problems with the playbook, but he still had the talent level. Joey Galloway was cut because Brady and Belichick were frustrated that Galloway wasn't putting in the effort to learn the plays.

    The fact of the matter is that the Patriots strategy of taking older and unheralded free agents works against the free agents that work out. They basically become poison to a lot of teams and many never get another chance. It happens with a lot of other teams too.
  27. Frezo

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    All of the Saints WR are under 30 except one who is 30.
    The Pats have 5 WR that are over 30.
    So this means that the Pats will be better because they have more experience.
    Or...
    The Saints will be better because they are less likely to be injured and will recover faster if they are.
    It's all POV.

    Projections are amusing, but only accurate in a very general sense.
    Of course I'm totally biased towards the Pats and project them to be amazing. :D
  28. Bobs My Uncle

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    I see the Pats and Saints as 1a and 1b. Kinda like a Ferrari and a Lambo.
  29. Deus Irae

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    I'm not rigging the system at all. You made a claim. I'm asking you to back it up with examples. You've come up with none. Also:

    Galloway played after the Patriots, Rob (10 games, 4 starts, 12 catches with the Redskins in 2010).

    Bethel started with the Patriots, so he clearly doesn't apply since there's no 'control' element of pre-Patriots time.

    The number of examples remains at "0". Johnson seems poised to become the first, and the reports are that he struggled with 'the playbook' with the Bungles, too, but they worked around it, so this isn't something that's exclusive to Mr. Johnson's time with the Patriots.
  30. patsinthesnow

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    Go ahead and count sproles.


    1. Welker
    2. Gronkowski
    3. Hernandez
    4. Lloyd
    5. Gaffney

    vs.

    1. Graham
    2. Sproles
    3. Colston
    4. Moore
    5. Henderson

    Here's my biased look at it.

    Welker is a better #1 WR than Colston.
    Lloyd is a better #2 WR than Moore.
    Gronkowski is a better #1 TE than Graham.
    Gaffney is a better #3 WR/5th option than Henderson.

    Than it's Hernandez vs. Sproles, take your pick.

    The stats back that up too.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2012
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