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Newly released Documents vindicate Cheney & CIA

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by patsfan13, Aug 29, 2009.

  1. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So Holder wants to prosecute the folks who kept us safe from Al Queda attacks. OF course they released our techniques so they will not be effective anymore.

    The 'Most Prolific' Detainee



    Even the NYT and WaPo have admitted that the Interrogations of KSM and other Hi Value captive saved lives.

    BTW none of the captives were physically harmed, the left has said that pyschological torture is just as bad and and scar a person for life , if that is the case Holder should be arrested, see he was the trigger man behind this bit of terror:

    [​IMG]


    See the little child in the picture looks terrified as an armed man screaming , pointing an assult rifle at him and siezing him away from realtives and kipnapping him.

    This looks traumatic to mee or is it only mass murderers we should care about?
     
  2. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #91 Jersey

    The weekly standard.... you mean ultra neo con Bill Crystals weekly standard? Thats pretty weak 13, can you say neo con agenda.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2009
  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    Good post ... incredible how the rights of non-Americans supercede the rights of Americans. The United States government has the responsibility than to serve and protect its citizens ... they did.
     
  4. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    this is the same magazine that insisted "case closed" regarding WMDs, and that Valerie Plame was a mere "desk jockey" at Langley.

    Oops... Wrong again.

    Lift the rock under any con man claim, and you'll see the bugs scurry away.
     
  5. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    Stop talking, 13.... You expose yourself as a partisan hack more and more with each day... Which is it? Did they torture, or not? Or, is torture simply OK with you before a conviction?


    Did Cheney Blink? - The Opinionator Blog - NYTimes.com

    The primary focus of analysis is the first sentence. Justin Elliott thinks it represents something of a walk-back by the former vice-president, specifically in the phrasing “individuals subjected to Enhanced Interrogation Techniques.”
    The key here is Cheney’s failure to connect the use of the so-called EITs to the extraction of the “bulk of intelligence.” The distinction amounts to a walk back of Cheney’s position all along — that interrogators culled valuable intel using the techniques. That the detainees in question provided intelligence is not in dispute.
    Greg Sargent notices the same thing:
    Cheney is not claiming a causal relationship between torture and the intelligence gleaned from interrogations. Rather, he’s saying that the same individuals who were tortured also happened to yield the most important evidence about Al Qaeda. He’s not saying that the docs proved torture was responsible for producing that info.
    At Time, Michael Scherer says it’s “surprising” that “Cheney does not mention the claim, which he has made elsewhere, that the use of enhanced interrogation techniques produced information that saved lives.”
    Rather, he claims only that “individuals subjected to Enhanced Interrogation Techniques provided the bulk of intelligence we gained about al Qaeda.” This statement is neither in dispute, nor much of a revelation. The enhanced techniques, when they were used as designed and not by rogue agents without proper supervision, were employed on a select few detainees who knew a lot about al Qaeda. The outstanding question is whether the enhanced techniques were necessary to produce the information, and on that score the memos continue to paint a muddy picture.
    In addition, Scherer also finds it surprising that Cheney does not “directly address two other memos” — the ones he requested by in April, the ones that “became a cause celeb for conservatives, who accused the Obama Administration of withholding key evidence showing the effectiveness of harsh interrogation.”
    Now that the memos have been released—with redactions—they provide no clarity to the question Cheney claimed they would answer: Did the enhanced techniques produce results? Rather the two memos describe the value of information provided by Al Qaeda detainees, which one memo calls a “crucial pillar of counterterrorism efforts.” The memos, as redacted, are silent on the role of harsh interrogation in producing that information. One memo describes another effective technique—dubbed the “building block” process—that did produce significant information. This process is an standard technique, of confronting one detainee with information from another detainee to produce more information. It does not involve any physical coercion. Does Cheney want other parts of the same memo, which were redacted in the latest release, made public? It is unclear.
    At the Washington Independent, Spencer Ackerman provides a close reading of the two documents themselves and finds little corroboration for Cheney: “Strikingly, [the C.I.A. reports] provide little evidence for Cheney’s claims that the ‘enhanced interrogation’ program run by the CIA provided valuable information.”
    In fact, throughout both documents, many passages — though several are incomplete and circumstantial, actually suggest the opposite of Cheney’s contention: that non-abusive techniques actually helped elicit some of the most important information the documents cite in defending the value of the CIA’s interrogations.
    From the first report, which concerns the interrogation of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ackerman says we “learn . . . that not only did [KSM] largely provide intelligence about ‘historical plots’ pulled off from al-Qaeda, a fair amount of the knowledge he imparted to his interrogators came from his ‘rolodex’ — that is, what intelligence experts call ‘pocket litter,’ or the telling documentation found on someone’s person when captured.”
    The second, says Ackerman, is even more “caveated”:
    The second newly released document — a June 2005 overview of information extracted from detainees — is, if anything, more caveated. In making a case that “detainee reporting” was “pivotal for the war against [al-Qaeda],” it says that “detainee reporting is often incomplete or too general to lead directly to arrests; instead, detainees provide critical pieces to the puzzle, which, when combined with other reporting, have helped direct an investigation’s focus and led to the capture of terrorists.”
    In conclusion, Ackerman ends up in a similar place as Scherer: “Perhaps the blacked-out lines of the memos specifically claim and document that torture and only torture yielded this information. But what’s released within them does not remotely make that case.”
    Again, Cheney’s public account of these documents have conflated the difference between information acquired from detainees, which the documents present, and information acquired from detainees through the enhanced interrogation program, which they don’t.
    Which brings us back to the the first sentence of Cheney’s statement.
    At Politico, Ben Smith ran Elliott’s version of textual analysis past “a person close to Cheney,” who denied there was any importance to the phrasing.
    “As the vice president has said repeatedly, the Enhanced Interrogation Techniques provided critical intelligence that saved lives and prevented terrorist attacks. The documents released yesterday demonstrate that conclusively. Anyone who doubts that hasn’t read the documents,” said the Cheney source.
    In response, Justin Elliott says, “Cheney doesn’t seem like the type to put out a carelessly crafted statement. We’ll be interested to hear if he has anything else to say on the matter.”
    We’re in Orwell country now,” says Adam Serwer.
    There’s no “demonstration” of the sort Cheney was referring to in his April statement. The only people who are saying the documents “demonstrate conclusively” that Cheney’s claims are true haven’t read them, or are anonymous Cheney aides.
     
  6. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    It's in WaPo too.....................

    Whether you think what they did was right, or wrong..... Looking back and having Holder/Obama essentually start a civil between CIA and FBI is NOT in the best interest of making this country safe.

    Besides, Holder could be spending valuable time doing other stuff, LIKE NOT KILLING INVESTIGATIONS INTO OBAMA'S PAL's (a story that got roundly ingnored. The DoJ is quickly becoming unglued with this clown in there.
     
  7. IcyPatriot

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    #87 Jersey

    Obama himself left wiggle room in his executive order. The torture laws on the books at the time left too much up to interpretation. diane Feinstein has even suggested a single law, single definition etched in stone that no future administration(s) could change.

    These torture cases are so open to interpretation that the guilty could well be dead by the time these cases reach their end. I understand what Obama and the democrats want to achieve but the practicality of it all says they are wasting their time.

    A better plan might be some sort of amnesty program where lawyers, interrogators could profess some type of guilt without any direct punishment ... some type of arrangement so that we can legally move on, admit some guilt and concentrate on matters more important to the everday solving of our current problems. Reward victims of torture with settlements - would be cheaper in the long run than the money lawyers will make from this at $200 - $500 an hour fees.
     
  8. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    you're better at this when you're not telling posters to "get a fukcing clue"... :cool:
     
  9. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #95 Jersey

    I fear that we are going back to a September 10th mentality.....and we live in a dangerous world and need all our intelligence assets fighting a common enemy and NOT each other.
     
  10. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    Even CNN's Jonathan Mann had the Ragin' Cajun, James Carville on saying that he thought Holder's ploy of throwing red meat to the rabid wing of the Left Dem party was "a bad political move".


    Give it up, tin foilers!! You go after the CIA and you hand the country over to China, lock, stock and barrel. Fidel will be sleeping in the Lincoln Bedroom -- hell, he'll insist on re-naming it the "Che Bedroom". :nooo:


    Uh-ah. Never going to happen.


    //
     
  11. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    If you're "not here to make friends," why are you so often trying to be funny?

    Are you one of those guys who laughs at his own jokes?

    by the way, you've never been funny. ... Just sayin'
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  12. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Pro Bowl Player

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    :wha:

    Who's "trying to be funny"???? This Holder inquisition is the joke, as are those who support it. Go ahead, invest heavily in digging into the CIA's enhanced interrogation techniques. You can play Uncle Teddy's imperious questioning of some CIA underling: "if you were water-boarded, would you consider it 'torture'??????" (Teddy, he knows about water torture. So does Mary Jo.)

    Are you hitting the bong again, Pressy???


    :nono:

    //
     
  13. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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  14. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well Patters perhaps singing Kumbaya with KSM would have worked, however this is a man who cut someone's head off with a knife.

    We now know that this approach definitivly SAVED AMERICAN LIVES, perhaps even your despite your hatred of Cheney.


    I find this especially vulgar given that E Holder is the person who mentally tortured Elain Gonzales before he was taken from relatives who loved him and shipped of to the prision Island of Cuba.


    I love it when the lefties with no coherent response to the truth attack the source even though I referenced other sources that are "unbiased"

    The report says what it says Cheney was right The EIT saved lives and did no physical harm to the mass murderers.
     
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I didn't see any reference to Kumbaya by the FBI agents, so I don't think that's their approach.

    I'm simply against torture. I don't think it's serves our interests, and I think there are other methods that are at least as effective.

    That's sort of stretching things. The right wing politicized the issue by trying to take the kid away from his dad. The right wing lost (as usual) and from what I've read the kid is doing very well, so perhaps the publicity here helped ensure him some advantages in Cuba.

    Well, this lefty has let the FBI provide the response, namely that torture isn't needed to extract info.

    Next time one of our troops is captured and then waterboarded or humiliated, you can thank Cheney for making it more difficult for us to take the moral high ground with any legitimacy. And, again, the memos merely show that torture does work in some cases, but the body evidence shows there are other options that work just as well. I find it hard to understand how the right wing can defend torture and attack empathy. To me, torture is a shameful word that by definition is evil and morally repugnant.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  16. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Fight Fire With Fire

    Do Unto Others As Others Would Do Unto You

    STAY SAFE
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  17. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Our troops have been tortured in every war last century. Al Queda has tortured (real torture not waterboarding) and murdered troops before any of this information was made public.

    Patters you are living in a fantasy world. Utopia doesn't exist.


    BTW how do you feel about the torture of Elian Gonzalves? The por child was kidnapped at gunpoint in the middle of the night at gunpoint>

    This is worse IMO than anything done to the mass murderers. Hopefully we can agree Elain was innocent.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  18. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thats different (Gonzalves) the democrats did it.
     
  19. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Touché ..... Then again, your better when you post with a clue :D
     
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It seems to me to at least a limited degree, the Geneva Convention protected American POWs in Germany and North Vietnam. I'm not saying that the Conventions work perfectly, but they do work to some extent.
     

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