New Meadowlands Stadium offering PSLs

[Tunescribe]

Can you actually lose money on them or will the teams always buy them back at a minimum for the amount you paid for them? Example...say the Pats win SB43 and then start PSLs next year. I buy one for $10,000. Then the team starts sucking, 1-15 seasons, empty seats, etc. It'd probably be tough to sell a PSL at a profit in that scenario. Would the Patriots still buy it back for $10,000? I'm guessing these policies vary slightly from team to team. That's a s--tload of money to risk if there is a potential for a loss.

I think one thing that people don't factor into the PSLs is the loss of interest they would be earning on their PSL money each year. So a fan who pays say $5,000 for 4 PSLs would be losing $700 in interest each year if that money was sitting in an online savings account earning 3.5% apy. When you factor that into it, even at the reduced ticket prices, I think you might still be better off without PSLs.

I bought four PSLs in the Ravens' stadium a year after it opened and they've quadrupled in value. You ALWAYS will be able to get back at least what you paid if you need to dump them even when the team is doing poorly. And like I said, they help hold down the price of tickets. Look at it this way: A team is going to get its money one way or another. I'd prefer that my investment be in a salable commodity (re., PSL and the ability to sell my tickets for a profit if I want to) vs. a 30-percent ticket price hike every three years with no re-sell option. The Krafts aren't stupid. They give lip service to how they deferred to fans' wishes by not having PSLs when Gillette opened, but we now have the highest ticket and parking prices in the league. Believe me, Pats season ticket holders would be much better off with PSLs. (And for the record, that $10k PSL price you're citing is for a premium seat in the new Meadowlands. Most PSLs leaguewide for a good sideline seat are in the $5k range.)

 

[Patjew]

Believe me, PSLs are a GOOD deal. They are like money in the bank and appreciate in value over time. You can sell them at a profit whenever you want and they help keep ticket prices from going up 30 percent every three years. Plus, you can do whatever you want with your tickets, including selling them at a profit as well. I wish we had them at Gillette.

But that's presuming you have the dough to pay for them in the first place. I imagine that many people can stretch to pay for season tix as they go but forking over such a big chunk of change for PSLs would be impossible. Most people just don't have access to that kind of free cash.

 

[patchick]

Have any "premium" teams and stadiums had PSLs out for a decent period of time to test the hypothesis that PSLs keep ticket prices down? I'd like to wait and see whether the Cowboys, Giants etc. really have significantly lower ticket prices than the Pats 5-10 years down the line. They're certainly not starting out at a discounted level.

I do think it's true that for certain fans, PSLs are a good investment over the long term. The problem is the short term. Not every fan who has faithfully worked his way up the season ticket ladder over the course of decades has the disposable cash sitting around to secure the license to the seats he's "earned." Look at fgssand, who'd have to shell out $120,000 up front. And even as an investment, it's problematic. It's kind of like having most of your money tied up in your house. "Whee, my house is now worth $100k more than before!" Awesome, so now all you have to do to realize a tidy profit is go homeless.

 

[Tunescribe]

Have any "premium" teams and stadiums had PSLs out for a decent period of time to test the hypothesis that PSLs keep ticket prices down? I'd like to wait and see whether the Cowboys, Giants etc. really have significantly lower ticket prices than the Pats 5-10 years down the line. They're certainly not starting out at a discounted level.

I do think it's true that for certain fans, PSLs are a good investment over the long term. The problem is the short term. Not every fan who has faithfully worked his way up the season ticket ladder over the course of decades has the disposable cash sitting around to secure the license to the seats he's "earned." Look at fgssand, who'd have to shell out $120,000 up front. And even as an investment, it's problematic. It's kind of like having most of your money tied up in your house. "Whee, my house is now worth $100k more than before!" Awesome, so now all you have to do to realize a tidy profit is go homeless.

The Fgssand example is silly, those $20k PSLs are CLUB seats. Like I said earlier, most PSLs leaguewide for good seats are in the $5k range, and many are lower -- even in the new Meadowlands stadium. And the teams usually have pro-rated no-interest payment plans.

 

[patchick]

The Fgssand example is silly, those $20k PSLs are CLUB seats. Like I said earlier, most PSLs leaguewide for good seats are in the $5k range, and many are lower -- even in the new Meadowlands stadium. And the teams usually have pro-rated no-interest payment plans.

Fair enough, I shouldn't have used the extreme example. But I'm still taking a wait-and-see approach on the question of how much PSLs actually keep ticket prices down...and I'm still leery of calling something a good investment if you have to give up football to get back your principal, let alone realize any gains.

 

[Rob0729]

As far as I know ALLl new stadiums in the last 20 years have had PSLs. Except for Gillette.

Don't forget that Kraft was a long time long enduring Seaon ticket holder in the bleacher seats. He is a Fan first.

Who has made a lot of money doing so-called uneconomic things with the Team he purchased and saved for New England. Things that turned into Gold with the Midas touch.

Too bad there are many who are cynics and quick to ***** and criticize.

I don't think they all have them, but quite a few do. The problem with the Meadowlands isn't the PSLs per sea, it is the actual cost of these PSLs. I remember when the Redskins opened their new stadium people complained about their PSL's prices which capped off at either $3k or $5k. The Meadowlands have few seats that have PSLs so low.

Asking for $7500 to $20000 for PSLs for most of the seats in the lower sections of the Meadowlands has all but assured to keep most of the average fans from attending the games. Even the most passionate fans would be hardpressed to shell out $15k for the right to buy season tickets for 2 seats in the corner endzone of the second section of the Meadowlands.

Personally, I don't have a problem with PSLs. I have a problem with the Meadowlands pricing of the PSLs. Say you had two season tickets in the 100 section of Gilette/Foxboro stadium for the last 20 years and you got a letter from Bob Kraft that to retain the rights for those season, you need to pay him $40k or lose your season tickets. That is what the Giants and Jets are going to do to a lot of fans.

 

[signbabybrady]

The Fgssand example is silly, those $20k PSLs are CLUB seats. Like I said earlier, most PSLs leaguewide for good seats are in the $5k range, and many are lower -- even in the new Meadowlands stadium. And the teams usually have pro-rated no-interest payment plans.

OK cut it in half or quarter it you are still talking a huge chunk of change. Nothing like coming up with 1500 once a year.

And even as an investment, it's problematic. It's kind of like having most of your money tied up in your house. "Whee, my house is now worth $100k more than before!" Awesome, so now all you have to do to realize a tidy profit is go homeless.

As patchick pointed out this is the real problem for the true die hards. Ideally I would like to be able to keep my seats my whole life. It is not an investment it is entertainment. If I pay 50,000 or even 25,000 to get 6 seats (which my family has) and I keep them my whole life as I hope I can than I never see that money again. Yes my family may get it back but what does that do for me.

A stock is something that can be sold not my allegiance to the Patriots.


PSLs are just a part of the coorperate turnover of sports. Fans turn their beloved sports and seats over to cooperate america to make a dime.

 

[Rob0729]

Also, one other thing not mentioned. Even after the PSLs, the cost per ticket at the Meadowlands is right up there with the Patriots' tickets which are the highest in the NFL. So the Jets and Giants are not actually keeping the cost of season tickets down even after the PSLs.

 

[Tunescribe]

Also, one other thing not mentioned. Even after the PSLs, the cost per ticket at the Meadowlands is right up there with the Patriots' tickets which are the highest in the NFL. So the Jets and Giants are not actually keeping the cost of season tickets down even after the PSLs.

We'll see who has the most frequent price hikes as time goes on. By the way, I'd love to hear from some Jets/Giants season ticket holders on what they think about the PSL prices and what their plans are. Are they complaining, or do they see it as an opportunity?

 

[Rob0729]

We'll see who has the most frequent price hikes as time goes on. By the way, I'd love to hear from some Jets/Giants season ticket holders on what they think about the PSL prices and what their plans are. Are they complaining, or do they see it as an opportunity?

Well, considering the Pats went 5 years without a hike and paid far less for their stadium, I am betting the Pats will have less frequent rate hikes. Historically, PSL has not done much to slow hikes in season tickets. As I said before in this thread, ticket price increases are tied to increases in salary cap, player salaries, and administrative costs.

If the salary cap continues to increase like it is, there is nothing any team can do about slowing ticket prices. With the cap going up over $5 million a year, teams are in need of getting additional cash flow even beyond the increase in TV revenue each year.

 

[signbabybrady]

Well, considering the Pats went 5 years without a hike and paid far less for their stadium, I am betting the Pats will have less frequent rate hikes. Historically, PSL has not done much to slow hikes in season tickets. As I said before in this thread, ticket price increases are tied to increases in salary cap, player salaries, and administrative costs.

If the salary cap continues to increase like it is, there is nothing any team can do about slowing ticket prices. With the cap going up over $5 million a year, teams are in need of getting additional cash flow even beyond the increase in TV revenue each year.

Salary cap is a percentage of what the league makes so if the ticket prices go up and profits go up than the cap goes up.

 

[Rob0729]

Salary cap is a percentage of what the league makes so if the ticket prices go up and profits go up than the cap goes up.

Yes, but the Giants and Jets are just two teams in a 32 team league. If they freeze their ticket prices, it doesn't mean the cap jumps will slow down especially if all of the other 30 teams continue to raise their prices at a decent rate. Also, the cap is tied to TV revenue and luxary boxes. With many teams adding luxary boxes, that will affect the cap too.

 

[signbabybrady]

Yes, but the Giants and Jets are just two teams in a 32 team league. If they freeze their ticket prices, it doesn't mean the cap jumps will slow down especially if all of the other 30 teams continue to raise their prices at a decent rate. Also, the cap is tied to TV revenue and luxary boxes. With many teams adding luxary boxes, that will affect the cap too.

Yes but with revenue sharing they all get their piece of that. I don't think the rising cap has that much to do with price hikes. Like most things their price hikes are related to demand.

there is obviously coorelation there but IMO it is kinda like the chicken or the egg.

 

[Rob0729]

Yes but with revenue sharing they all get their piece of that. I don't think the rising cap has that much to do with price hikes. Like most things their price hikes are related to demand.

there is obviously coorelation there but IMO it is kinda like the chicken or the egg.

The Giants and Jets are teams that are in the "have" category. They have to pay into revenue sharing more than they get out of it. Teams that are in the "have" category lose money in revenue sharing to help subsidize the teams that are in the "have not" category.

Of course the cap has to do with the ticket hike. It isn't the only reason, but is a major factor. The owners give something like 60% of their combined revenue to players. If the cap increases by 3-5% each year that means if a team doesn't increase their revenue their percentage of revenues going to the players continues to increase.

Most teams sell out their games in the NFL every year. 14 teams last year had 100% sell outs or even more (SRO tickets). The Pats has had a long waiting list for years and had their first price increase in five years this year. I don't think demand has as much to do with ticket price increases than the rising costs.

 

[signbabybrady]

The Giants and Jets are teams that are in the "have" category. They have to pay into revenue sharing more than they get out of it. Teams that are in the "have" category lose money in revenue sharing to help subsidize the teams that are in the "have not" category.

Of course the cap has to do with the ticket hike. It isn't the only reason, but is a major factor. The owners give something like 60% of their combined revenue to players. If the cap increases by 3-5% each year that means if a team doesn't increase their revenue their percentage of revenues going to the players continues to increase.

Most teams sell out their games in the NFL every year. 14 teams last year had 100% sell outs or even more (SRO tickets). The Pats has had a long waiting list for years and had their first price increase in five years this year. I don't think demand has as much to do with ticket price increases than the rising costs.

you are running in the chicken egg circle I was talknig about.

The cap increase 3-5 % because the league made more in revenue and as you said the giants and jets are haves feeding into the revenue sharing. So the added money they made was shared by teams and the combined revenue of the teams caused the hike in the cap.

I have aknowledged there is an obvious correlation but you seem to keep running in circles.

I don't think demand has as much to do with ticket price increases than the rising costs.

Rising costs or rising cap? or are you saying they are one and the same?

when you say rising costs I think of maintanance and upkeep, energy to run the stadium, technologies to compete, and other things outside of player costs.

 

[AStack75]

We'll see who has the most frequent price hikes as time goes on. By the way, I'd love to hear from some Jets/Giants season ticket holders on what they think about the PSL prices and what their plans are. Are they complaining, or do they see it as an opportunity?

Not sure if the Jets anounced their PSL pricing yet, but here is the thread on the Giants board...
http://boards.giants.com/forums/thread/876213.aspx

One interesting thing I read in that Giants thread is that the Cowboys PSLs expire after 30 years.

 

[Tunescribe]

Not sure if the Jets anounced their PSL pricing yet, but here is the thread on the Giants board...
http://boards.giants.com/forums/thread/876213.aspx

One interesting thing I read in that Giants thread is that the Cowboys PSLs expire after 30 years.

The Giants fans generally seem pretty positive about it.

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

The Giants fans generally seem pretty positive about it.

Seems the people who are getting hit the hardest by the PSL are those who are party of legacy families that have supported the Giants for decades in order to get seats down in the lower section. Now those people have to pay 20k/seat for a PSL and then $7,000 per season for the ticket's face value. Yes, they could downgrade their seat to a more affordable section, but PSL's (which last the life of a stadium, so 30-40 years) hurt these people in particular because they are unlikely to sell the right's to seats that are essentially family heirlooms in the first place. When the new stadium closes, they (or the next generation) will have to sell that original PSL for the price originally paid for it and then potentially buy a new one that is even more expensive, unless, somehow the franchise is willing to pay them some appreciation on the value of the PSL which would invalidate my point.

It's even worse in Dallas... you pay huge money for a PSL that lasts 30 years. What do people do in year 30 when the PSL expires and cannot be sold for any kind of profit? Tell themselves that the interest they'd have earned over 30 years on their 10-20k PSL investment was worth more to them in the form of going to Cowboys games than as a contribution to their 401k or something?

I think these things make people weigh loyalty versus their checkbook. The best financial outcome (saving the PSL until it hits max value, then selling) is also the most wrenching one to a fan (the PSL hits high value at a time when people are desperate to see the team, so it's likely a winning period.)