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New Abortion Ban approach

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by patsfan13, Feb 25, 2010.

  1. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Anti Abortions groups speaking on new Abortion ban legislation in Nebraska.

    Abortion Ban Based on Fetal Pain Could Be Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Followup


    The Pro Life movement looking to science to make the case against abortion and public opinion about murdering children in the womb.


    Basing the case on the inflicting of pain, of the infant in the womb. Great idea, Use science to make the case for infants.
  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Republicans simply want no-cost morality. If Republicans want to be convincing on the issue regarding the unborn, let them demonstrate a commitment to the born by providng better social services and care for little kids born into poverty and troubled homes. Until that happens, all the pro-life Republicans are trying to do is fool God, by using the strong arm of big government to regulate women's bodies, which costs nothing, while poor kids die as a result of poverty and abuse. When the pro-life movement introduces a good plan to help needy kids, then it will be plausible that they are really concerned about the unborn. But, for now, I simply do not believe the Republican pro-life movement is anything but a political ploy designed to exploit women and religion to get votes.
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2010
  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Correction.. "the pro birth party"... if they were pro life they would oppose wars and the death penalty.. and insure that all children were given an equal chance.
  4. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Opportunity and 2 parent families give the best outcomes. The greatest number of opportunities to move up economically are created by limited government.

    Democrats want poverty without it there is no need for their welfare state, and the bureaucracy. These are key elements of their base ie their power.

    Democrats are worried about terrorist being tortured and insensitive to the brutal torture of children being killed.
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's all very nice, but that sort of preaching does nothing for the little kids who right now are in poverty and pain. Even accepting your views (which I don't), you still would have a transition period. I would not benefit from a welfare state. In fact, it would simply mean higher taxes for me if we had a true welfare state, so at best you can say, in my opinion, that Democratic leaders want a welfare state. On the other hand, Republican leaders and individuals stand to profit if taxes are cut. So, your views would stand to benefit you, while my views probably would not benefit me given my income bracket. If I believed fetuses were humans, I would oppose abortion, but having a pretty darn good knowledge of the brain, I don't think that's true. That said, given the possibilities, I believe the best approach is to discourage abortion by given women an option other than bringing a child into an impoverished, crime ridden, drug addicted community. If we treated people better, at least abortion might drop among the poor.
  6. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Democrats depend on poverty and misery for their power, after all if the poor very making money we wouldn't need community organizers now would we?


    Matter of fact conservatives wish everyone was rich, then people would go to the government for everything and out taxes would be lower since everyone would be paying taxes.

    BTW if you can't handle a child there are many non lethal options, birth control, curbing your sexual appetites, and adoption.

    Torture and murder should not be options.

    The science says that children feel pain by 20 weeks you denials of that reality not withstanding.
  7. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    Its cute the way you act as though many terminated pregnancies last beyond 20 weeks when 9 out of 10 abortions happen inside of 12 weeks and the majority of those later abortions are for serious health concerns. Its cute, but not unusual. Since we all know the only way a Republican ever wins an argument is by lying.
  8. patsfan13

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    Which serious health concerns are 'solved' by invading the womb and killing a child?

    So it is OK for you if 10% of children are being tortured as they are killed? That is what > 100,000 per year.

    Public opinion about abortions is changing as science improves our understand of children in the womb. This seems to be upsetting the pro death crowd.

    Why are you OK with inflicting pain on the innocent?
  9. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    I feel the same way about abortion as I do about your tendency to lie and use your moderator panel to win arguments. Neither's an ideal thing to do, but that doesn't mean they should be against the law.
  10. woolster22

    woolster22 Rookie

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    what is your definition of life? What organs need to be developed and functioning? how developed does the nervous system need to be? Can it be before we out-develop our tail? Just because the nervous system has begun to develop, does not mean it is any where near functional. I wouldn't mind seeing a follow up study done by a couple different groups. As we all know, data can be shown in many different lights to show many different things. Also, I would have to say that much of this study must be inferred. The brain is one of the least understood parts of our body. how do we know when they start to operate, and at what level is it functioning? Id say anything prior to 20 weeks is far from "life." to me, 20 weeks is not life, and this is based off of fetal development knowledge attained through college bio. It is simply my informed opinion. Plenty of people disagree, but to call us out as supporters of "torture and murder of the innocent," really? Put your bible down for a second. The planet is older than 2000 years, life does not start at conception (you know that for a brief period early in development it is difficult to tell the difference between a fetal human, and say, a giraffe, or monkey?), and there are plenty of legitimate reasons to end a pregnancy. Why should a rape victim carry a pregnancy to term? What kind of psycological torture would that be?
  11. patsfan13

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    See the linked article and the study cited about the pain suffered by the child.
  12. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Gee If I acted the way you are accusing me of acting you would be banned for this post.
  13. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    #12 Jersey


    Change the subject much? I thought you were the big, progressives rely on science and conservatives don't kind of a guy. If the science is correct what difference does your agenda or mine have to do with it? It has to be dealt with even if it might mean a person/fetus (whatever you word you want to use) is spared a painful, partial birth abortion.

    This never ending pissing contest is not going to end today or with this reply but if we don't know when brain activity or other functions begin exactly then I think we shouldn't be in the business of killing....even if Joe cracker doesn't make a commitment. Who's going to be the one to tell these children in poverty today that they should never have been born? Science marches on. Cripes you just flipped into a climate change denier mode. We just learned recently that people previously though to be in a vegetative state actually had cognitive brain functions. It's a good thing someone looked into the possibility. What would you say Patters if this were proved to be true and not just inferred (even the doctor in this case lays out evidence that it is not)?
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The question is what makes a human? Do you think women who miscarry should be investigated for murder (perhaps they drank, smoked, or exercised too vigorously)? Do you think that there should be full funeral services for miscarries? I would suspect that even you think that a fetus at least in the early stages does not require the same treatment as a child (but I could be wrong).

    By supporting abortion through the second trimester, I am with those who draw the line quite cautiously in my opinion. Where do you draw the line? At what week? Is abortion never okay? Or morning after pills wrong? Should miscarries be investigated and prosecuted? As I said, I believe the way to address abortion is to help kids and their families, so they take proper precautions against pregnancy and aren't living such bleak lives that they don't want to bring a child into it.

    And, no, I didn't change the subject. In my view anyone who opposes abortion and opposes programs to help poor kids and single moms is being very hypocritical. Those hypocrites are most likely Republicans. Democrats who oppose abortion tend to favor increased social spending.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2010
  15. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    I would hope anyone would consider new science findings and draw the line cautiously as you put it there. So called proper precautions should not regularly include late term abortions due to some sudden revelation that the child might not have a good life.
    Morning after pills and miscarries are great talking points(though a miscarriage can be a very dark and tragic time for a family) but are several degrees away from the conclusion this study comes to.

    I agree for the most part that pro life supporters that oppose programs for poor kids on a wholsale level are being hypocritical....as hypocritical as abortion supporters that always seem to praise a womans decision to abort no matter what the reason and at the same time kick and scream all the way maternty ward whenever they hear of anyone try to make the case for life.
  16. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, that doesn't sound hypocritical, but the hypocrisy I struggle with is that one of the reasons I'm against the death penalty is the possibility of innocence. So, therefore shouldn't I be against abortion, because of the possibility that a fetus is a living human being?

    Asa result, I look at the issue more as one of a woman's individual rights, as opposed to whether a fetus is a living human being or not. Many women who choose to have abortions are in a level of despair that is painful to comprehend. Some women choose abortion because they don't care. These women not only don't want a baby, they probably would not make good mothers, and we have terrible adoption laws and social services in place to create real opportunities. If the right to life movement took liberals stands on social welfare, I think it would be just a matter of time before the critical masses tilted towards restricting abortion.
  17. patsfan13

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    The crucial difference is that the woman has options besides infanticide, they can opt for adoption.

    The baby has no options they are innocent and defenseless.
  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    PF13, take the alcoholic woman who does not get welfare because she is able-bodied and does not get disability because she doesn't have a qualifying illness. Desperate, she hooks up with an abusive man. They chose to have a couple kids. One ended up in prison. The other killed up himself. (That's a true story.) People who grow up in that kind of world may find abortion to be a better choice. Their experience in this world is not as positive as ours. They have world view that's very different, but based on their experience. They are not convinced that (1) they can bring a child into the world given their abusive household, (2) that their child will be happy given their own misery, (3) that the child will end up in a good home, (4) that the child will have a life that's different from there's. Many of these people wish they were never born.

    That said, I would welcome more of my tax dollars going to help and protect pregnant, single moms, struggling parents, their kids. I think that would reduce the number of abortions.

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