Needs Analysis: Offensive Line

[cstjohn17]

Mankins came in and WON the position. It wasn't handed to him.

As for your claims that it minimizes your investment. How about you do some fact checking. OH wait, that's right. There are not facts on the internet. Just interpretations *stiffles a laugh*. Why don't you look up how many times Neal has been injured and how many games he's missed. Then, look at Wilfork and Warren and Graham and see that they started off on the bench, LEARNING. They were only pressed into service when they earned it.

The Pats use their reserve linemen at TEs and as lead fullbacks in their elephant package. And, as I mentioned, Neal has a history of being injured. Not to mention that he'll be 32. But you keep thinking that the Patriots shouldn't plan for the future. In no time, you'll have them looking like the Detroit Lions.

I guess if I was honest I would say opinions are expressed on this board more than facts, but maybe I am wrong. I like to talk about the draft but don't know a thing about it, I put every other poster in the same class.

Again, it is just my opinion, but I do not see guard as a value pick at #24, it is not like the rest of the roster is rock solid. I don't subscribe to the view that the Patriot take the BPA, history does not back that up. They draft for a combination of value, need and fit within the system (just like every other team).

 

[VJCPatriot]

Some years there are more OL's with first round talent than in others. As of now, Huddle has 5 first round tackles and 4 first round interior lienmen. That number will likely be reduced as more juniors come out, possibly making one of these available in the second, perhaps with a trade up. Meriweather did NOT start. He was not expected to. I do NOT expect us to draft an offensive lineman at 24. However, I certainly expect several linemen to be on the patriot value board as we approach the 24th pick. Last year, many liked Clady and not much else. Many thought that Clady would have been a great pick for us. We got a better pick in Mayo, but I would have been well satidfied with Clady on our team.

How different is the situation in 2009? This year, I suspect there is more top OG/C talent than in 2008. It is not often that there are centers with first or second round talent. The top center is often drafted in the 4th. That just won't happen this year. The top THREE centers and the top THREE guards might get drafted before we pick in the 2nd. The good news is that we might still get a 2010 starting OG/OC in the 2nd.

I was among the ones who thought Clady was worth our 1st rounder. Amazingly he dropped to #12 and he performed better than even I expected his 1st year. He led the league with only .5 sack allowed in 2008. That boggles my mind. Don't get me wrong, I love Mayo and he was DROY so theres no disappointment in that pick. I'm just wondering how much better our offense would look with Clady at LT and Matt moved over to RT.

In any case, the "planet" theory is often correct when drafting in the 1st round.

 

[mgteich]

1) There are NO facts with regard to the patriots draft board until the day of the draft.
2) Opinions here are as good as you are going to get anywhere. There are maybe a dozen media types that are in the same class as the most informed here. My list is Reiss, Curran, Shecter, Felger, the draft guy for the Dallas paper, and the lady who writes for the Providence paper. There are likely a few others.
3) All opinions are not equal. Many here are as able as any in the world to discuss and analyze the patriots and their draft; well, as able as someone who doesn't work for the patriots now or in the past.
4) We have reviewed patriot value boards here for at least five years. Some of us have reviewed patriot draft boards for 25 years or more. I am absolutely fine with anyone who disagrees with those who strongly believe that a guard will be on our 10-15 player board at 24. However, please understand that our opinions are not uninformed guesses. And, if a guard were not on the first or second day board, that would mean that the team had extensions ready for each of four guards to sign. Absent such extension, and given the players available, it would be unthinkable for the first day boards not to include a guard or two or three or six.

Any yes, of course, a draft choice and a draft board takes talent, need, and system fit into consideration. A draft value for a patriot board also takes into account character, work ethic and intelligence.

The next three months will be fun. There will be a lot of twists and turns before the first day of the draft.

I guess if I was honest I would say opinions are expressed on this board more than facts, but maybe I am wrong. I like to talk about the draft but don't know a thing about it, I put every other poster in the same class.

Again, it is just my opinion, but I do not see guard as a value pick at #24, it is not like the rest of the roster is rock solid. I don't subscribe to the view that the Patriot take the BPA, history does not back that up. They draft for a combination of value, need and fit within the system (just like every other team).

 

[tanked_as_usual]

1) However, please understand that our opinions are not uninformed guesses.

they're not?

this attitude hails from the 'I know more than you' syndrome that many around here have, so it spreads like a disease........

a perfect example is briz who has come up with some pretty ridiculous stuff but has also been more correct on some things than anyone will admit

it would be easier to say nothing at all, but many feel compelled to call out anyone they disagree with on an insulting level......so guess what that person is going to do the next time they disagree? BLAMMO!

 

[mgteich]

There are some here who feel compelled to research, think and analyze before they post. Do I know more about the patriots than someone who has followed the team for a year and never has read anything about any of their players. I would think so. To say otherwise is to say that information, learning and analysis are useless. Of course, some know more than others. Personally, I think to believe otherwise is absurd.

Now, does that mean that I believe that my opinions are better than those who post here? No, BECAUSE many who post here are as knowledgable or more so than I am. Many know much more about the x's and o's than I do. And some are as good or better at analyzing the team and draft. Certainly, almost all on the draft board are more knowledgable about the players coming out in the 2009 draft. I hope to bridge that gap some over the next three months.

they're not?

this attitude hails from the 'I know more than you' syndrome that many around here have, so it spreads like a disease........

a perfect example is briz who has come up with some pretty ridiculous stuff but has also been more correct on some things than anyone will admit

it would be easier to say nothing at all, but many feel compelled to call out anyone they disagree with on an insulting level......so guess what that person is going to do the next time they disagree? BLAMMO!

 

[DaBruinz]

they're not?

this attitude hails from the 'I know more than you' syndrome that many around here have, so it spreads like a disease........

a perfect example is briz who has come up with some pretty ridiculous stuff but has also been more correct on some things than anyone will admit

it would be easier to say nothing at all, but many feel compelled to call out anyone they disagree with on an insulting level......so guess what that person is going to do the next time they disagree? BLAMMO!

Tanked - If you want to "split hairs" and claim that following things and reading how the Patriots do things and such still makes us uninformed, so be it. But, most people would say that they are more informed guess than anything else. Because we are working from Information about the Patriots.

Where we aren't informed is how the Patriots evaluate the players themselves. Both the players in the draft and the players on the team. We do know that they don't use any of the scouting services as they have their own scouting department. I think only the Ravens and the Colts have scouting departments as extensive as the Patriots, but i am not 100% sure.

 

[sg14]

When Parcells was here I remember him saying that when you wanted a left guard you drafted a left guard and if you wanted a right guard you drafted a right guard.

Is this true???????

(True except for Unger??)

 

[DaBruinz]

When Parcells was here I remember him saying that when you wanted a left guard you drafted a left guard and if you wanted a right guard you drafted a right guard.

Is this true???????

(True except for Unger??)

Mankins was a OT coming out of college. The Pats moved him inside after they drafted him. He's the only one that I know of that the Pats have successfully moved..

 

[mgteich]

Someone can check, but many of LG's in the league were LT's in college.

 

[BradyManny]

Someone can check, but many of LG's in the league were LT's in college.

Kaczur was on OT in college that was projected as an OG in the pros. Pats offensive line goes for smaller, athletic types, so he fits as OT for us.

I wonder how serious their trials of Kazcur at RG were in preseason or minicamps this year (forget which it was). If he could play that position as well, that would give us great flexibility - the dropoff between Neal and the RGs behind him has been huge. In fact, its huge enough that it might've cost us 19-0 :enranged: Oddly enough, the depth at tackle hasn't been as much an issue.

 

[Seneschal2]

When Parcells was here I remember him saying that when you wanted a left guard you drafted a left guard and if you wanted a right guard you drafted a right guard.

Is this true???????

(True except for Unger??)

I don't remember the Parcells reference. However, when RG Joe Andruzzi moved to LG (due to someone's injury), Belichick complemented him on how he made the transition so seamlessly, further stating that playing the left and right OG positions require different techniques and can be a difficult move. Perhaps this is similar to what Parcells meant.

 

[DaBruinz]

I don't remember the Parcells reference. However, when RG Joe Andruzzi moved to LG (due to someone's injury), Belichick complemented him on how he made the transition so seamlessly, further stating that playing the left and right OG positions require different techniques and can be a difficult move. Perhaps this is similar to what Parcells meant.

It was Mike Compton that Andruzzi replaced.

 

[KevinFaulk-33]

About Levitre, from NFP:

Andy Levitre: Oregon State. Projection: second round

Played LT at Oregon State and displays the feet and body control to reach the corner and re-direct in space. However, he lacks length and is best suited to play guard in a zone blocking scheme.

I think this is a good news, isn't it?

And Max Unger, also from NFP:

Max Unger: Oregon. Projection: second round

A former LT who has made a seamless transition inside to center. He possesses the best feet in the nation for an interior lineman and is nearly impossible to get around in pass protection. Is an ideal fit for a zone-blocking scheme.

 

[VJCPatriot]

About Levitre, from NFP:

I think this is a good news, isn't it?

And Max Unger, also from NFP:

Unger would have to be able to play at least G at the pro level to be worth a 1st day pick. But doesn't he currently play C at the collegiate level?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Unger would have to be able to play at least G at the pro level to be worth a 1st day pick. But doesn't he currently play C at the collegiate level?

Unger was the starting LT, the team needed help inside so the coach moved him to C. He is unquestionably the most versatile OL in this draft and well worth a Day One pick - and worth a #23 if BB does want to replace Neal.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Unger was the starting LT, the team needed help inside so the coach moved him to C. He is unquestionably the most versatile OL in this draft and well worth a Day One pick - and worth a #23 if BB does want to replace Neal.

I am watching some of the practice from the senior bowl on NFL network and Mack impressed me more the Unger on the one on ones but it is the first practice. One O-Line I thought did pretty well and reminds me of Cherilus from last year and could be a RT is Loadholt. He is big (6080, 343lbs, 9 7/8, 36 1/2) and I thought had pretty good feet running 4-3 d-ends past the QB. I do remember him getting his jock handed to him by Orakpo but a lot of players have.

 

[mayoclinic]

I am watching some of the practice from the senior bowl on NFL network and Mack impressed me more the Unger on the one on ones but it is the first practice. One O-Line I thought did pretty well and reminds me of Cherilus from last year and could be a RT is Loadholt. He is big (6080, 343lbs, 9 7/8, 36 1/2) and I thought had pretty good feet running 4-3 d-ends past the QB. I do remember him getting his jock handed to him by Orakpo but a lot of players have.

I like Mack better than Unger, but Unger is undoubtedly more versatile. Mack seems a bit tougher and more powerful, and is one of the brightest college players around. I'm curious to see how Andy Levitre and Trevor Canfield look as well at guard.

I'm not sure I want a road grader like Loadholt at RT. We tried that route with O'Callaghan, and it hasn't seemed to work. If we were spending a first day pick on OT I guess I'd rather try to find a possible LT prospect like William Beatty from Connecticut, and eventually move Matt Light to RT.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I like Mack better than Unger, but Unger is undoubtedly more versatile. Mack seems a bit tougher and more powerful, and is one of the brightest college players around. I'm curious to see how Andy Levitre and Trevor Canfield look as well at guard.

I'm not sure I want a road grader like Loadholt at RT. We tried that route with O'Callaghan, and it hasn't seemed to work. If we were spending a first day pick on OT I guess I'd rather try to find a possible LT prospect like William Beatty from Connecticut, and eventually move Matt Light to RT.

Canfield struggled in the one-on-ones. Beatty also struggled and got gigged for bending at the waste - Cody Brown was pressing him hard. The interior OL whom I was most impressed with in the one-on-ones was Urbik, he really impressed me with his quickness and recovery speed - I didn't expect that from a little fellow his size. Levitre did okay.

 

[zero]

I like Mack better than Unger, but Unger is undoubtedly more versatile. Mack seems a bit tougher and more powerful, and is one of the brightest college players around. I'm curious to see how Andy Levitre and Trevor Canfield look as well at guard.

I'm not sure I want a road grader like Loadholt at RT. We tried that route with O'Callaghan, and it hasn't seemed to work. If we were spending a first day pick on OT I guess I'd rather try to find a possible LT prospect like William Beatty from Connecticut, and eventually move Matt Light to RT.

:agree: both Unger and Mack are awesome. I think they are "can't miss prospects", I like William Beatty but I think Jason Smith from Baylor is better.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

Canfield struggled in the one-on-ones. Beatty also struggled and got gigged for bending at the waste - Cody Brown was pressing him hard. The interior OL whom I was most impressed with in the one-on-ones was Urbik, he really impressed me with his quickness and recovery speed - I didn't expect that from a little fellow his size. Levitre did okay.

I did like Urbec and thought he had good feet. I do not remember which DT tried the spin and he used his hands very well and he spun himself to catch the DT and stand him up. I think he was the only one who was able to sit and lockout agaisnt the big and I mean BIG bullrush from Brace (who I liked a lot but that if for another thread). The DT's all looked pretty good which may be the reason for the poor showing for some of the O-Line in a drill which is geared toward the defense (trust me I was a d-lineman).