My2Cents Finalized Two Round Mock Draft

[primetime]

Small school doesn't mean low student enrollment. It means competition. Troy plays in DI, and for example played against Florida, Arkansas, and Georgia last year, and will play LSU this year. Tennessee State plays in a DI-AA conference that is relatively weak even by DI-AA standards.

Cromartie only scored a 38 on his retake of the Wonderlic. While that's an impressive score (despite the fact the Wonderlic is ridiculously easy, it amazes me how badly NFL prospects score on it), his original 19 is below average. Ali Highsmith's 7 means he's functionally illiterate and probably bordering on having severe mental deficiencies that he cannot compensate for. Don't expect Highsmith to be a Patriots pick, despite the fact he seems like he'd be a good fit.

And yes, it was a case of paying Samuel or paying a 1st round CB. It's the same amount of money. If it made the cap too tight to select another player, you make a bad trade and head back in the round. Remember, there's always someone willing to trade. It might just not be at the right value.

 

[rsd]

So, what you're saying is that there's no redeeming myself? Being wrong last season is just too unforgivable? And, furthermore, everybody else's two misses were way better than mine? Well, that's fair.

No, I think it just shows you're throwing darts blindly like the rest of us.

Two of the most important qualities the Pats value in a prospect are:
1.) athletic ability, and 2.) versatility. Review BB's post-draft comments.
If they value athleticism, why are you so down on it? I don't understand.



That's flawed logic. It's not a case of giving either a rookie CB money or giving a Pro Bowler money. That's just wrong. It was a matter of keeping Moss or Samuel. What rookies get paid has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Sorry that makes no sense. There is an overall salary cap for each team. Whether I pay Samuel or player X or a rookie $10 million, it still $10 million towards the cap.

No one is saying the kid doesn't have athletic ability, but there are plenty of examples of "can't miss" players that had amazing athletics who were unsuccessful. You can't tell me with certainty that this kid is going to be a star, and there are enough unknowns to make it highly questionable.

I agree the kid is a 1st rounder, but to say he is going to be a super star or deion sanders is silly.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Small school doesn't mean low student enrollment. It means competition. Troy plays in DI, and for example played against Florida, Arkansas, and Georgia last year, and will play LSU this year. Tennessee State plays in a DI-AA conference that is relatively weak even by DI-AA standards.

Troy plays in the Sunbelt Conference. Hardly the most challenging conference in the world, so no I don't think the majority of their competition is that tough. How many Pac 10 busts have we seen? So to me, weak conference doesn't give that big of an edge over smaller school.

Cromartie only scored a 38 on his retake of the Wonderlic. While that's an impressive score (despite the fact the Wonderlic is ridiculously easy, it amazes me how badly NFL prospects score on it), his original 19 is below average. Ali Highsmith's 7 means he's functionally illiterate and probably bordering on having severe mental deficiencies that he cannot compensate for. Don't expect Highsmith to be a Patriots pick, despite the fact he seems like he'd be a good fit.

You're going to criticize Cromartie for scoring a 38 now? Unbelievable. There are some QBs that don't even score a 38. Matt Ryan only scored a 32! The average wonderlic score is supposedly 20, so 19 is exactly on the bell curve. It's not below average or ******ed as you imply. It looked to me after Cromartie experienced the test and knew what kind of test to expect he passed with flying colors. Note that retaking a test does not make you any smarter, it just lets you know what kind of format to expect. Note that guys like Ali Highsmith, barely improved on his second retake. Cromartie has to have natural intellectual ability to score a 38, that's not just a fluke. In any case, it's pretty safe to assume that DRC's intelligence is not in question at this point.

My top 2 CB prospects are McKelvin and DRC respectively. I would be fine with either of them in the 10-15 range, but it's also possible the Pats might take a LB or OT instead.

 

[BradyToMoss]

"No one is saying the kid doesn't have athletic ability, but there are plenty of examples of "can't miss" players that had amazing athletics who were unsuccessful."

Please give me these examples and also give me these examples with the combine and Senior bowl results to match what DRC has done, if you can, I'll shake your hand, tip my hat to you and call you a smart NFL talent evaluator. But until you can, don't just throw out a blind, general statement like that without citing examples, it's an unsult to what DRC has done at both events.

 

[rsd]

"No one is saying the kid doesn't have athletic ability, but there are plenty of examples of "can't miss" players that had amazing athletics who were unsuccessful."

Please give me these examples and also give me these examples with the combine and Senior bowl results to match what DRC has done, if you can, I'll shake your hand, tip my hat to you and call you a smart NFL talent evaluator. But until you can, don't just throw out a blind, general statement like that without citing examples, it's an unsult to what DRC has done at both events.

LOL. Do you stare dreamily at the picture of DRC above your bed when you go to sleep at night?

Let's see Mike Mamula, Tony Mandarich, Steve Emptman, Ryan Leaf, Curtis Enis, Akili Smith. How about Charles Rogers, Mike Williams, Cedric Benson, etc etc etc. There are PLENTY of busts who were touted to have the athletic ability but didn't pan out for variety of reasons (couldn't transition to the NFL, injuries, off the field issues, etc).

The Combine/Senior Bowl are NOT the end-all, be-all and I don't get why you keep harping those as more important than the body of work of an entire college career.

The kid has talent no doubt!! But don't tell me he is a can't miss type of prospect.

 

[BradyToMoss]

LOL. Do you stare dreamily at the picture of DRC above your bed when you go to sleep at night?

Let's see Mike Mamula, Tony Mandarich, Steve Emptman, Ryan Leaf, Curtis Enis, Akili Smith. How about Charles Rogers, Mike Williams, Cedric Benson, etc etc etc. There are PLENTY of busts who were touted to have the athletic ability but didn't pan out for variety of reasons (couldn't transition to the NFL, injuries, off the field issues, etc).

The Combine/Senior Bowl are NOT the end-all, be-all and I don't get why you keep harping those as more important than the body of work of an entire college career.

The kid has talent no doubt!! But don't tell me he is a can't miss type of prospect.

Dude, you're citing Round One busts, we all know about these guys, to my knowledge only ONE of these guys "combined" himself into the top 10 and that was Mamula. The rest were all "film-based top 10 talent locks" based on game tape who played at big time D1 schools, not just a combine or senior bowl from a 1-AA school like DRC. Your argument against DRC is that he is just a "workout warrior",a Mamula type who is just an athelete and nothing more. A guy who just happened to shine at the combine and senior bowl. Well, you talk of guys just like this "athlete only" who've never made it in this league, tell me who they are and how they did what DRC was able to do against top competition at the senior bowl and I will shake your hand.

 

[My2Cents]

Sorry that makes no sense. There is an overall salary cap for each team. Whether I pay Samuel or player X or a rookie $10 million, it still $10 million towards the cap.

No. You're wrong. Yes, there is an overall salary cap for each team. But there is also what is known as "the rookie pool," which is basically a cap within a cap. Each team is allowed a figure, varying from team to team,
for rookie (and UFA) allocation. Those moneys are already set aside. What forced Samuel out was the Pats decision to re-sign Moss. They simply didn't have money for both. Rookies are a non-factor.

No one is saying the kid doesn't have athletic ability, but there are plenty of examples of "can't miss" players that had amazing athletics who were unsuccessful. You can't tell me with certainty that this kid is going to be a star, and there are enough unknowns to make it highly questionable.

I agree the kid is a 1st rounder, but to say he is going to be a super star or deion sanders is silly.

First of all, I never said DRC is a "can't miss" prospect. Of course he can.
But, guess what? Every prospect can miss. That doesn't mean you don't draft them. You want guarantees for what everybody agrees is a roll of the dice! That, my friend, is not logical. Worse yet, you want them to shy away from anyone with athletic ability for fear they are workout warriors.
But it doesn't work like that. If there is a guy there that you think might be special, you draft him over the guy who is very average but safe.

 

[rsd]

Dude, you're citing Round One busts, we all know about these guys, to my knowledge only ONE of these guys "combined" himself into the top 10 and that was Mamula. The rest were all "film-based top 10 talent locks" based on game tape who played at big time D1 schools, not just a combine or senior bowl from a 1-AA school like DRC. Your argument against DRC is that he is just a "workout warrior",a Mamula type who is just an athelete and nothing more. A guy who just happened to shine at the combine and senior bowl. Well, you talk of guys just like this "athlete only" who've never made it in this league, tell me who they are and how they did what DRC was able to do against top competition at the senior bowl and I will shake your hand.

Ok so your argument is that (now other than Mike Mamula) there have been NO busts who had good combines/senior bowls? First I frankly don't get why you are so caught up on the Senior Bowl.

I grow weary of this "argument" because you have no foot to stand on. How about if I show you some recent Senior Bowl MVPs and you tell me how well they have done in the NFL?

1990 MVP: Blair Thomas, Penn State
1992 MVP: Tony Smith, Southern Miss
1993 MVP: Eric Hunter, Purdue
1994 MVP: Stan White, Auburn
1996 MVP: Bobby Hoying, Ohio State
1997 MVP: Pat Barnes, California
1998 MVP: Dameyune Craig, Auburn
1999 MVP: Cade McNown, UCLA
2000 MVP: Chad Pennington, Marshall
2005 MVP: Charlie Frye, Akron
2006 MVP: Sinorice Moss, Miami

So are you still arguing that Senior Bowl performance is a good indicator of future success?

 

[BradyToMoss]

Ok so your argument is that (now other than Mike Mamula) there have been NO busts who had good combines/senior bowls? First I frankly don't get why you are so caught up on the Senior Bowl.

I grow weary of this "argument" because you have no foot to stand on. How about if I show you some recent Senior Bowl MVPs and you tell me how well they have done in the NFL?

1990 MVP: Blair Thomas, Penn State
1992 MVP: Tony Smith, Southern Miss
1993 MVP: Eric Hunter, Purdue
1994 MVP: Stan White, Auburn
1996 MVP: Bobby Hoying, Ohio State
1997 MVP: Pat Barnes, California
1998 MVP: Dameyune Craig, Auburn
1999 MVP: Cade McNown, UCLA
2000 MVP: Chad Pennington, Marshall
2005 MVP: Charlie Frye, Akron
2006 MVP: Sinorice Moss, Miami

So are you still arguing that Senior Bowl performance is a good indicator of future success?

Aside from the missing years in your list, funny how that worked out, how did these guys do in the combine, did any one of them absolutely blow scouts away with measureables in the 40, 3-cone and vertical? Also after the Senior bowl, aside from Blair Thomas, who was a "game-tape top 10 talent", were any one of the guys on this list even mentioned as a top 10 talent, let alone the 1st round, like DRC?.....................I didn't think so.

 

[SamBamsFan]

Most Valuable Player
2008 Matt Forte, RB, Tulane
2007 Tony Hunt, RB, Penn State
2006 Sinorice Moss, WR, Miami
2005 Charlie Frye, QB, Akron
2004 Philip Rivers, QB, North Carolina State
2003 Larry Johnson, RB, Penn State
2002 Antwaan Randle El, WR/QB, Indiana
2001 LaDainian Tomlinson, RB, TCU
2000 Chad Pennington, QB, Marshall
...
1999 Cade McNown, QB, UCLA
1998 Dameyune Craig, QB, Auburn
1997 Pat Barnes, QB, California
1996 Bobby Hoying, QB, Ohio State
1995 Derrick Brooks, LB, Florida State
1994 Stan White, QB, Auburn
1993 Eric Hunter, Purdue
1992 Tony Smith, Southern Miss
1991 Alvin Harper, Tennessee
1990 Blair Thomas, Penn State

You guys should just get a room...

 

[rsd]

Aside from the missing years in your list, funny how that worked out, how did these guys do in the combine, did any one of them absolutely blow scouts away with measureables in the 40, 3-cone and vertical? Also after the Senior bowl, aside from Blair Thomas, who was a "game-tape top 10 talent", were any one of the guys on this list even mentioned as a top 10 talent, let alone the 1st round, like DRC?.....................I didn't think so.

My list wasn't meant to be all encompassing, some of the MVPs went on to have great careers. But look at that list and tell me how being a "star" in the senior bowl means much of anything.

God help me, this is difficult talking to a brick wall.

But let's discuss our friend Blair Thomas, he actually had a strong combine (well at least 40, since my 20 second search only found that info). In fact let's read this together:

For instance, in 1990, Penn State running back Blair Thomas posted a 4.4 in the 40. Fellow running back Emmitt Smith posted times between 4.56 and 4.71 at the NFL scouting combine and personal workouts.

The New York Jets selected Thomas with the second pick of the NFL draft. Smith plummeted to 17th, where the Dallas Cowboys pounced. Thomas had an undistinguished NFL career. Smith finished his NFL career as the all-time leading rusher and soon will be voted into the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_8992619

And please don't make the argument that Thomas didn't come from a small school like DRC. I don't get how that "helps" DRC but I know you will try to twist that somehow.

 

[rsd]

No. You're wrong. Yes, there is an overall salary cap for each team. But there is also what is known as "the rookie pool," which is basically a cap within a cap. Each team is allowed a figure, varying from team to team,
for rookie (and UFA) allocation. Those moneys are already set aside. What forced Samuel out was the Pats decision to re-sign Moss. They simply didn't have money for both. Rookies are a non-factor.

I don't agree with this. Its a subset of the overall cap but still counts towards the salary cap overall. You can spend $10 million within your rookie cap or have that money spent on a non rookie player. I don't believe that if you don't spend your full rookie cap, that the money disappears all of a sudden.

 

[dhamz]

I have to say, DRC has dominated at every level.

That would be HS and...um...slightly better than HS? I guess Pop Warner maybe?

Those are the only levels he ever played at and many will tell you he was far from dominant in his small college career.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I don't agree with this. Its a subset of the overall cap but still counts towards the salary cap overall. You can spend $10 million within your rookie cap or have that money spent on a non rookie player. I don't believe that if you don't spend your full rookie cap, that the money disappears all of a sudden.

Your understanding is correct. The rookie cap simply limits how much cap space you can devote to rookies in their first year - and that is basically structure. All contracts can be "structured" to do what you need to do, but eventually every cent you pay a player hits the cap. If a rookie gets $18M in bonus and guarantees it will hit the cap eventually, as will Asante's $20 some million. The only difference is Asante's deal could be frontloaded (and it was so the Eagles could theoretically cut bait if he doesn't work out with little dead cap). Draftee's deals are backloaded because the rookie cap basically demands that you construct them that way or you can't sign all your picks...

A CB drafted at #7 will command an overall contract as well as bonus/guaranteed money in excess of what we were willing to offer our former Pro Bowl and Superbowl winning CB in a long term deal - before he ever sets foot on an NFL field. Moss had nothing to do with Asante not being resigned, that decision was made 13 months after the dye was cast with Samuel.

 

[primetime]

Troy plays in the Sunbelt Conference. Hardly the most challenging conference in the world, so no I don't think the majority of their competition is that tough. How many Pac 10 busts have we seen? So to me, weak conference doesn't give that big of an edge over smaller school.
...
You're going to criticize Cromartie for scoring a 38 now? Unbelievable.

Again, Troy plays against top DI competition in its non-conference games. Tennessee State does not. Therein lies the difference.

As for the Wonderlic score, I took the Wonderlic last year, finished it in 5 minutes, and scored a 50 on it. The thing is unbelievably easy (what days are known as the 'weekend'?) and I think most posters on here would score in excess of a 45 (again, I said most, as there are some who would struggle to get a 10). Then again, we're talking about college football players here, so maybe I should give Cromartie the benefit of the doubt. Also, scoring a 50 on the Wonderlic isn't going to make me a draftable football player, either, so there's certainly more to it than that. But I don't think he's worth the amount of money they'd be paying him, which as others have mentioned would be equal to or greater than what Samuel, one of the best corners in the league for the past few years, would have been getting.

 

[My2Cents]

I don't agree with this. Its a subset of the overall cap but still counts towards the salary cap overall. You can spend $10 million within your rookie cap or have that money spent on a non rookie player. I don't believe that if you don't spend your full rookie cap, that the money disappears all of a sudden.

You don't agree? There's a shocker. You are wrong. You - as a team - do not have the choice of giving your money either to rookies or to veterans.

You must give the moneys allocated to rookies and UFA's to those it is allocated to, without exceeding the maximum allocated (hence the term: "allocated," as defined by Webster:

"1 : to apportion for a specific purpose or to particular persons or things : distribute
2 : to set apart or earmark : designate".

Note that if veterans were allowed to get rookie moneys and rookies were allowed to get veteran moneys, that would lead to rookie hold outs. But when a rookie $ is allocated, teams can say, sorry, that's all the $ we have.
That forces rookies into camp sooner rather than later.

Yes, you're right. Well, partly. If a team doesn't use all of its rookie moneys on rookies - and, true, it doesn't have to but they always do! (average = 98%) - or, more specifically, if it stays under the salary cap, that money is not up for grabs, as you suggest, but rather the following year's cap is adjusted upward.

Note, also, that the amount of rookie moneys allocated to each team is determined by slotting (where they pick) and the value of each pick.
Generally speaking, all teams use all of their "rookie" money on rookies,
and usually go over the overall cap by 2%. The system is designed to work exactly like that.

 

[My2Cents]

That would be HS and...um...slightly better than HS? I guess Pop Warner maybe?

Those are the only levels he ever played at and many will tell you he was far from dominant in his small college career.

Hmmm... I'm torn. I don't know who to believe, you or NFL.com!

 

[Deus Irae]

Nevermind.....

Deleted

 

[rsd]

You don't agree? There's a shocker. You are wrong. You - as a team - do not have the choice of giving your money either to rookies or to veterans.

You must give the moneys allocated to rookies and UFA's to those it is allocated to, without exceeding the maximum allocated (hence the term: "allocated," as defined by Webster:

"1 : to apportion for a specific purpose or to particular persons or things : distribute
2 : to set apart or earmark : designate".

Note that if veterans were allowed to get rookie moneys and rookies were allowed to get veteran moneys, that would lead to rookie hold outs. But when a rookie $ is allocated, teams can say, sorry, that's all the $ we have.
That forces rookies into camp sooner rather than later.

Yes, you're right. Well, partly. If a team doesn't use all of its rookie moneys on rookies - and, true, it doesn't have to but they always do! (average = 98%) - or, more specifically, if it stays under the salary cap, that money is not up for grabs, as you suggest, but rather the following year's cap is adjusted upward.

Note, also, that the amount of rookie moneys allocated to each team is determined by slotting (where they pick) and the value of each pick.
Generally speaking, all teams use all of their "rookie" money on rookies,
and usually go over the overall cap by 2%. The system is designed to work exactly like that.

Um, I'm not really sure what your point is. There is a salary cap overall. Let's say the Patriots were willing to spend $10 million on a corner back. It doesn't matter on the overall salary cap whether that money was given to a player that was a rookie or a veteran (other than making sure it fit within the rookie cap as well if it was given to a rookie).

So what is your argument? It was NEVER a choice of moss vs samuel. It was a choice of how do they want to spend the money and there is a variety of ways they can distribute that. Maybe they sign both but free up money elsewhere and use a rookie to fill that another spot.

God helps us all, under a week now until the draft! :bricks:

 

[My2Cents]

Um, I'm not really sure what your point is. There is a salary cap overall. Let's say the Patriots were willing to spend $10 million on a corner back. It doesn't matter on the overall salary cap whether that money was given to a player that was a rookie or a veteran (other than making sure it fit within the rookie cap as well if it was given to a rookie).

So what is your argument? It was NEVER a choice of moss vs samuel. It was a choice of how do they want to spend the money and there is a variety of ways they can distribute that. Maybe they sign both but free up money elsewhere and use a rookie to fill that another spot.

God helps us all, under a week now until the draft! :bricks:

Your whole argument was that it was illogical for the Pats to draft a rookie CB and pay him what they could have paid Samuel. I'm trying to make it clear to you that that is simply false.

First, teams don't get allocated "rookie pool" dollars until after the draft. Then, they are allocated only a certain figure, depending on 1.) the "slotting," (or, value) and, 2.) the number (how many) picks they make.
The fewer and the lower the picks, the less money you are allocated.

Therefore, if I trade away that top pick with the crazy idea that I'll just give that money to my veteran, instead, the league makes it impossible by allocating less money. Get it? There is no extra money.

Further, if you still decide not to pay the rookies you draft all of the "rookie pool" moneys allocated to them, that money does not become suddenly available. It only counts toward your overall cap the following year.

The bottom line is that Samuel was a victim of the cap because after signing Moss, there simply wasn't enough money. Rookie money wasn't an option.

Let me add that if what you said was possible, it would only result in rookie holdouts and greedier veterans.