My 8/21 guess at the 53

[Rob0729]

Jackson was "expected" to step up and take the #3 spot and make Gaffney the #4. Gaffney is proven and, although he wouldn't play much, could occupy the #4 spot. Jackson is unproven and wouldn't play much as the #4 WR, and has yet to make any impact on special teams. In the meantime, you have an elite ST player like Aiken and a returning ST player and adequate pass catcher in Washington who could fill the #4 WR role (injury replacement, 5 WR set here and there), but can also have a big special teams presence.

What does Jackson not stepping into the #3 spot have to do with anything. Aiken is a horrible WR. Washington hasn't been even a decent WR since 2005. Jackson still has the potential to be decent which is more than I can say about the other two.

Also, if Aiken was an elite special teamer, why didn't the Bills try to make every effort to retain him. It isn't like the Pats gave him a boffo deal. He is a good ST, but I don't know about elite.

I'm not really considering Slater's DB or WR presence in this move, so Bam is irrelevant to me. I think he has awesome potential as a spark plug returner and a lightning-quick gunner, and he can carve himself a nice role on this team as that. But if Hobbs proves himself over the long run to be a better returner, then Slater is expendable, I suppose.

I agree that Slater has potential, but that is all he has right now. He is the epitome of a practice squad guy to me. A lot of unrealized potential, not a lot of production in the preseason.

The fact that Hobbs was returning kicks early in last game doesn't speak well for Slater's chances of making the final 53 man roster. If he had a strong shot of making the team as a special teamer, Belichick would have been having him returning kicks instead of Hobbs.

Someone who has 72 career catches for 893 yards is a "pure special teamer?" I'm not saying Washington is the second coming of Jerry Rice, but the only reason Washington played as much on special teams as he did last year was because of Moss coming in after Washington's signing. If Moss didn't come, then we would have seen Welker, Stallworth, Gaffney, and Washington as the team's top 4 WRs.

You have Aiken and Slater on the roster as WRs. That is two pure special teamers. When did I say anything about Washington? Washington has only 19 receptions for 216 yards and 2 TDs over the last three years. Jackson has 13 catches for 151 yards and 3 TDs over the last two seasons. So Jackson has actually been more productive.

I don't see that happening in the 8 days (holy crap!) that remain before final cuts. I could even see him going in the first cutdown, a la Poteat or Spann a past years.

Last time I checked, every single one of our ILBs played like crap the last game. We have no idea what has happened over the last week in practice. Many times ILBs intially struggle in this system because they have trouble picking up the gap assignments. If that is the case with Hobson, that is something that is correctable and can happen overnight. Not saying that is the case with him though, but if it is he could do a 180 tonight.

Woods and Crable would be in long before Hobson would. Hobson would only come in if both of those guys went down, and that is supported by everything that has gone in camp and the preseason so far.

Again, I said Hobson wouldn't start, but if Woods or Crable become the starter to replace Vrabel or Thomas someone has to replace Woods or Crable's spot as a back up/rotational guy.

And keep in mind that if Hobson was a half-decent OLB in the 3-4, either the Jets would have kept him or he would have been signed long before he was by the Pats in mid-April.

Gaffney was not resigned by the Texans and picked up by the Eagles and then cut before the preseason started. Gaffney remained on the street until October when the Pats signed him. Does that mean that Gaffney won't make the Pats?

The Jets wanted to overhaul their defense. They replaced several starters this past offseason and spent a lot of money and draft picks to get new players. When you go 4-12, you usually don't retain players in free agency.

I don't know if Hobson will turn it around and make the team, but this is a weak argument that the Pats have disproven over and over again. The Pats have made gold out of other's peoples garbage like Bobby Hamilton, Roman Phifer, David Patten, Joe Andruzzi, etc. All those were players that were players no one wanted and the Pats made them productive players. Not saying Hobson will follow the trend, but using the argument that the Jets didn't want to resign him and he sat on free agency a bit doesn't really fly.

 

[Rob0729]

IIRC, he's been out for both of the preseason games. Am I saying he's going to become a consistent part of this offense? No. But he's more than adequate to fill that injury replacement/5th WR role.

Who is #4 then? You have Jackson cut. Aiken sucks as a WR. Slater is unproven.

Washington had all last year too, but didn't catch a single pass.

I am not thrilled with Jackson's effort so far, but I don't see a single WR on the roster who has proven they deserve to be the #4 WR more than him.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Aiken sucks as a WR.

why do you keep saying aiken sucks? care to back up your reasoning? from what I saw at camp, and what I saw against the ravens before he was hurt, I think he makes the team and contributes. Not just on st's either.

Your asking why the bills didnt resign him? since when have the bills been known for making great personal decisions? B.B. went right after him. I'll take B.B.'s judgement over the bills fo any day.

 

[pats1]

Who is #4 then? You have Jackson cut. Aiken sucks as a WR. Slater is unproven.

Washington had all last year too, but didn't catch a single pass.

I am not thrilled with Jackson's effort so far, but I don't see a single WR on the roster who has proven they deserve to be the #4 WR more than him.

Washington is the #4. How often did the Pats use four wide receivers on the field last season? How much did we see Gaffney in the beginning of the season, and how much did we see Stallworth near the end? I wouldn't expect to the Pats to line up 4 or 5 WRs every time, in the gun, like they did last year. You're gonna hear a lot more of Dave Thomas than you will of any 4th WR. You can get a lot more value out of those #4-6 WR spots if you have ST-oriented players in there, instead of pure pass-catchers who aren't going to see the field most of the time - and probably will be inactive anyway.

 

[Rob0729]

why do you keep saying aiken sucks? care to back up your reasoning? from what I saw at camp, and what I saw against the ravens before he was hurt, I think he makes the team and contributes. Not just on st's either.

Your asking why the bills didnt resign him? since when have the bills been known for making great personal decisions? B.B. went right after him. I'll take B.B.'s judgement over the bills fo any day.

Ummm.... He is a 5 year veteran who has 19 catches for 250 yards and no TDs for his career. If he didn't suck, he would have more catches even in Buffalo.

You saw a lot by Aikens in the Baltimore game? Wasn't he injured on the first or second on special teams play he was in (I don't know if he played on the opening kick off or not, but he was hurt on the second special teams play? I think you are overstating his contribution in the Ravens game.

As for training camp, he was probably being covered by guys who won't even make the team. I don't know if training camp is a good judge.

I didn't say Aiken won't make the team. I am just saying he isn't going make it on his receiving responsibles. This guy isn't going to wake up after 5 years in the league as a horrible WR and be a productive one.

 

[dhamz]

I must say I very surprised it took until this many pages to become a Chad Jackson discussion.

The first thing I thought reading the 53 was Pats1 was going to be called out pretty quickly by leaving the Patsfans.com most popular player off his roster.

 

[pats1]

What does Jackson not stepping into the #3 spot have to do with anything. Aiken is a horrible WR. Washington hasn't been even a decent WR since 2005. Jackson still has the potential to be decent which is more than I can say about the other two.

Also, if Aiken was an elite special teamer, why didn't the Bills try to make every effort to retain him. It isn't like the Pats gave him a boffo deal. He is a good ST, but I don't know about elite.

The Pats signed Aiken a day or two into free agency - he was someone they really went after, just like Morris last season. BB harped about watching Aiken on tape for 4-5 years as a Bill and wanting to have that player on his team.

And I don't get the obsession with having the next Jerry Rice as a 4th WR - really, that's a low priority. Filling out the special teams roster is much more important and takes precedent over trying to fit a player like Jackson on the roster who will most likely be inactive more than he's not.

I agree that Slater has potential, but that is all he has right now. He is the epitome of a practice squad guy to me. A lot of unrealized potential, not a lot of production in the preseason.

I disagree with your assessment of production. I've carefully re-watched these games and I've liked what I've seen from Slater as a returner and gunner.

The fact that Hobbs was returning kicks early in last game doesn't speak well for Slater's chances of making the final 53 man roster. If he had a strong shot of making the team as a special teamer, Belichick would have been having him returning kicks instead of Hobbs.

We shall see tonight.

You have Aiken and Slater on the roster as WRs. That is two pure special teamers. When did I say anything about Washington? Washington has only 19 receptions for 216 yards and 2 TDs over the last three years. Jackson has 13 catches for 151 yards and 3 TDs over the last two seasons. So Jackson has actually been more productive.

Not only does that comparison not hold much weight because both players have been injured in that time, but it really doesn't matter for the 4th WR spot. I can assure you that Beioli won't look at old stats like that when making such a decision - what they're looking for is someone who can bring the most value out of the 4th WR position. In this case, it's Washington, who can contribute mainly on special teams but also on offense in those rare cases. What offensive production Jackson brings to the table doesn't mean much of anything, because he's either going to be playing special teams 95% of the time or will be inactive.

Last time I checked, every single one of our ILBs played like crap the last game. We have no idea what has happened over the last week in practice. Many times ILBs intially struggle in this system because they have trouble picking up the gap assignments. If that is the case with Hobson, that is something that is correctable and can happen overnight. Not saying that is the case with him though, but if it is he could do a 180 tonight.

I'm basing my opinion off the fact that after OTAs, minicamps, training camp, and two preseason games, Victor Hobson is 3rd on the depth chart at SILB behind Gary Guyton, is a backup special teamer, and has yet to see substantial reps in any preseason game. I'm not predicting that will change overnight.

Again, I said Hobson wouldn't start, but if Woods or Crable become the starter to replace Vrabel or Thomas someone has to replace Woods or Crable's spot as a back up/rotational guy.

Yes, it would be Woods or Crable, unless both Vrabel and Thomas get hurt. You don't see much of a 4th OLB on this team - in fact, Woods was inactive for a few games last season as that 4th OLB.

Gaffney was not resigned by the Texans and picked up by the Eagles and then cut before the preseason started. Gaffney remained on the street until October when the Pats signed him. Does that mean that Gaffney won't make the Pats?

The Jets wanted to overhaul their defense. They replaced several starters this past offseason and spent a lot of money and draft picks to get new players. When you go 4-12, you usually don't retain players in free agency.

I don't know if Hobson will turn it around and make the team, but this is a weak argument that the Pats have disproven over and over again. The Pats have made gold out of other's peoples garbage like Bobby Hamilton, Roman Phifer, David Patten, Joe Andruzzi, etc. All those were players that were players no one wanted and the Pats made them productive players. Not saying Hobson will follow the trend, but using the argument that the Jets didn't want to resign him and he sat on free agency a bit doesn't really fly.

You're missing my point. Hobson played mainly at OLB for the Jets last season, and from all accounts did nothing to make them want to keep them. Then he came to the Pats and has played exclusively at ILB. So I don't see where there is evidence that Hobson could be an effective 3-4 OLB.

 

[Rob0729]

Washington is the #4. How often did the Pats use four wide receivers on the field last season? How much did we see Gaffney in the beginning of the season, and how much did we see Stallworth near the end? I wouldn't expect to the Pats to line up 4 or 5 WRs every time, in the gun, like they did last year. You're gonna hear a lot more of Dave Thomas than you will of any 4th WR. You can get a lot more value out of those #4-6 WR spots if you have ST-oriented players in there, instead of pure pass-catchers who aren't going to see the field most of the time - and probably will be inactive anyway.

Washington and Jackson could be battling all season long for that #4 spot. But last year the #4 WR contributed quite a bit.

Again, who said Jackson can't perform on special teams? Gaffney/Stallworth didn't do much special teams last year. The #4 WR is expected to produce on offense. Washington hasn't shown in recent years that he is any better to produce in that role than Jackson is.

 

[pats1]

Ummm.... He is a 5 year veteran who has 19 catches for 250 yards and no TDs for his career. If he didn't suck, he would have more catches even in Buffalo.

You saw a lot by Aikens in the Baltimore game? Wasn't he injured on the first or second on special teams play he was in (I don't know if he played on the opening kick off or not, but he was hurt on the second special teams play? I think you are overstating his contribution in the Ravens game.

As for training camp, he was probably being covered by guys who won't even make the team. I don't know if training camp is a good judge.

I didn't say Aiken won't make the team. I am just saying he isn't going make it on his receiving responsibles. This guy isn't going to wake up after 5 years in the league as a horrible WR and be a productive one.

I really don't know why we're (that is, the posters in this thread) are continuing to obsess over the receiving numbers of Washington, Jackson, and Aiken. The fact of the matter is, all three are capable of playing wide receiver at some level, but if any of them wants to make the team, they will have to do it by contributing on special teams.

 

[pats1]

Washington and Jackson could be battling all season long for that #4 spot. But last year the #4 WR contributed quite a bit.

Again, who said Jackson can't perform on special teams? Gaffney/Stallworth didn't do much special teams last year. The #4 WR is expected to produce on offense. Washington hasn't shown in recent years that he is any better to produce in that role than Jackson is.

I've continually stated that I believe the Pats aren't going to use a 4th WR spot as much as they did last season, thus making the roster spot of a Gaffney/Stallworth of last season expendable - I've said that many times now. Even last season, the Pats' 4 WR sets consisted of Welker, Moss, Gaffney, and Watson. In the rare occasion that they go 5 WR, it would be a Stallworth or a Faulk (usually motioned out).

Therefore, I believe your assessment of the 4th WR spot is off-base. Let's think of what types of sets the Pats will most likely run this season. Please tell me where having a pass-catching 4th WR is needed:

2 WR (Moss, Welker), 1 TE (Watson), 2 RB (Maroney, Evans)
2 WR (Moss, Welker), 2 TE (Watson, Thomas), 1 RB (Maroney)
3 WR (Moss, Welker, Gaffney), 1 TE (Watson), 1 RB (Maroney/Faulk if gun)
4 WR (Moss, Welker, Gaffney, Watson), 1 TE (Thomas) or 1 RB (Maroney/Faulk if gun)
5 WR Moss, Welker, Gaffney, Watson, Washington/Thomas/Faulk)

I have better things to do, but I bet if you went back and checked Reiss' numbers and looked for how many times 5 WR sets and Stallworth were used, you wouldn't find too many.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Ummm.... He is a 5 year veteran who has 19 catches for 250 yards and no TDs for his career. If he didn't suck, he would have more catches even in Buffalo.

You saw a lot by Aikens in the Baltimore game? Wasn't he injured on the first or second on special teams play he was in (I don't know if he played on the opening kick off or not, but he was hurt on the second special teams play? I think you are overstating his contribution in the Ravens game.

As for training camp, he was probably being covered by guys who won't even make the team. I don't know if training camp is a good judge.

I didn't say Aiken won't make the team. I am just saying he isn't going make it on his receiving responsibles. This guy isn't going to wake up after 5 years in the league as a horrible WR and be a productive one.

once again, you're referring to the bills. B.B. saw something in him. Personally (not that it means much) I thought he looked good catching the ball.

I wasnt referring to how many plays he was in on. I was referring to what I saw him doing during the plays he was in on. He obviously can play special teams better than jackson.lol.

from what I saw, the same people covering him, were the same ones covering c.j. , and slater. Those are the names being used the most in this thread.

you still havent explained to me why he is a horrible reciever. we can go all day quoting stats, but that's not what i was asking you. Is there something wrong with him getting seperation? Maybe you don't think he blocks well? No burst, or maybe he cant grasp the playbook? You tell me.

oh, and one more thing. Someone needs to tell me how to seperate a quote.lol. it would make things easier

 

[Rob0729]

The Pats signed Aiken a day or two into free agency - he was someone they really went after, just like Morris last season. BB harped about watching Aiken on tape for 4-5 years as a Bill and wanting to have that player on his team.

The Pats took Donald Hayes day one of free agency. What's your point? I think Aiken has a good shot at making the team at the #6 WR spot, but could be a victim of a numbers game if the Pats decide to overload another position.

And I don't get the obsession with having the next Jerry Rice as a 4th WR - really, that's a low priority. Filling out the special teams roster is much more important and takes precedent over trying to fit a player like Jackson on the roster who will most likely be inactive more than he's not.

Because Jackson has the potential to be a pretty good WR. He hasn't had a real shot to reach that potential. That potential may never be met, but he should and probably will get a shot to try to reach that potential.

If the Pats carry six WRs, the sixth WR will never get activated anyway barring injuries. Who cares if a player who never gets activated can play special teams or not?

It is quite clear emotions play a part in your decision on this guy when you make cracks about the guy. I am look at pure potential, risk and reward, and how the Pats are definitely trying to make him that #4 WR. I have no unrealistic expections on the guy.

I disagree with your assessment of production. I've carefully re-watched these games and I've liked what I've seen from Slater as a returner and gunner.

Pretty average as a returner so far. Better as a gunner. Will be great as insurance on the practice squad. Again, he is a fan favorite who's production hasn't translated in the first two preseason games.

We shall see tonight.

Again, I am basing my guess on what could happen in the rest of the preseason. I am under no illusions that if he doesn't turn it around that he has a very good chance of being cut.

Not only does that comparison not hold much weight because both players have been injured in that time, but it really doesn't matter for the 4th WR spot. I can assure you that Beioli won't look at old stats like that when making such a decision - what they're looking for is someone who can bring the most value out of the 4th WR position. In this case, it's Washington, who can contribute mainly on special teams but also on offense in those rare cases. What offensive production Jackson brings to the table doesn't mean much of anything, because he's either going to be playing special teams 95% of the time or will be inactive.

Did Gaffney play special teams 95% of the time last year? The #4 WR is expected to play offense. You are confusing the #4 WR with the #5 WR. Gaffney contributed on special teams (Stallworth did not when he got demoted to #4 WR), but it wasn't his main role.

The Pats have been grooming Jackson for the #4 spot. So stats are irrelevant because they already seem to made their choice. If Slater, Washington, and/or Aiken haven't supplanted him in this game (barring injuries), he is still ahead of them in the race for a roster spot.

I'm basing my opinion off the fact that after OTAs, minicamps, training camp, and two preseason games, Victor Hobson is 3rd on the depth chart at SILB behind Gary Guyton, is a backup special teamer, and has yet to see substantial reps in any preseason game. I'm not predicting that will change overnight.

Who is to say that Hobson isn't kept over Alexander if he shows an improvement? Alexander hasn't been really lighting it up this preseason. You have Guyton over Alexander on the depth chart.

Yes, it would be Woods or Crable, unless both Vrabel and Thomas get hurt. You don't see much of a 4th OLB on this team - in fact, Woods was inactive for a few games last season as that 4th OLB.

More the reason to have a guy who can play both inside or outside. It means you don't have to add another guy to the roster for insurance.

You're missing my point. Hobson played mainly at OLB for the Jets last season, and from all accounts did nothing to make them want to keep them. Then he came to the Pats and has played exclusively at ILB. So I don't see where there is evidence that Hobson could be an effective 3-4 OLB.

Ok, still don't get your point. Just because the Jets didn't want to retain him as a pure OLB, he has absolutely no value as an ILB who can be insurance as a back up OLB if someone gets injured? It doesn't make sense. Your argument would make sense if the Pats brought him in as a starting OLB, but the Jets could have very well have picked him up as a back up OLB if the Pats didn't sign him. If he is cut by the Pats, he could be resigned by the Jets.

Just because the Jets didn't resign him before the Pats did doesn't mean they didn't think he could be a back up OLB on their team. Many guys like Hobson sit in free agency until after the draft because teams want to see what they pick up in the draft first and use guys like Hobson to fill in holes. That could have been the Jets' strategy with Hobson. Maybe not.

Takeo Spikes sat in free agency until last week. Ty Law is still a free agent. Just because a player sits in free agency doesn't mean he has absolutely no value whatsoever.

 

[Rob0729]

once again, you're referring to the bills. B.B. saw something in him. Personally (not that it means much) I thought he looked good catching the ball.

I wasnt referring to how many plays he was in on. I was referring to what I saw him doing during the plays he was in on. He obviously can play special teams better than jackson.lol.

from what I saw, the same people covering him, were the same ones covering c.j. , and slater. Those are the names being used the most in this thread.

you still havent explained to me why he is a horrible reciever. we can go all day quoting stats, but that's not what i was asking you. Is there something wrong with him getting seperation? Maybe you don't think he blocks well? No burst, or maybe he cant grasp the playbook? You tell me.

oh, and one more thing. Someone needs to tell me how to seperate a quote.lol. it would make things easier

Again, I think Aiken was signed primarily because of his special teams talent. Not for his receiving talent. I didn't say he wouldn't make the team. I just said he wouldn't make the team for his receiving talent.

Belichick has kept Izzo around for almost a decade just to play special teams. He has signed other special team aces who didn't make the team because of injury or other reasons (Mel Mitchell comes to mind).

As for the Baltimore game, I don't think you can judge much of anything based on two plays.

As for his receiving talent, I haven't scouted the guy, but with the receiving talent they have had other than Lee Evans, I think the fact he hasn't gotten many balls thrown his way speaks volumes. I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

As for separating quotes, I would tell you, but it is going to cost you. Just hit the reply button. For each paragraph you want to quote separately, highlight and his the quote button (looks like a dialog balloon from comic books.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

As for separating quotes, I would tell you, but it is going to cost you. Just hit the reply button. For each paragraph you want to quote separately, highlight and his the quote button (looks like a dialog balloon from comic books.

cool. thank you.

 

[DW Toys]

No point in having Neal go to IR yet considering he's still Reserve/PUP eligible.

Why Izzo? I don't know, maybe we should cut Gostkowski, Hanson, Paxton, and all the other special teamers and have all starters play on STs like it's the 1930s.

Yates is an upgrade over Welbourn at this point in time, or else Welbourn would have been around for a lot longer than he has.

That's a ton of players going to IR, though. As much as the "stashing" theory has gained popularity, I don't see the Pats recklessly IRing players in favor of the Jeff Shoates of the world just because such players have been injured at one point or another in the preseason. Why IR players when you can cut them and have the possibility of getting them back later on in the season?

Redd hasn't shown anything and has barely been a presence on special teams.

Eckel isn't practice squad eligible.

If he is cut he is eleigible, correct me if I am wrong.

Hey, all the rest of this is pure fun and conjecture. I appreciate your views.

I think Izzo is a one show pony that is taking up some talents' roster space that we are going to have to hide or cut. I love him as a player. It's just a valuable slot we give up with him. He is a major liability on the field on defense. I am sure we all agree to that.
DW Toys
P.S. I do not think that Redd is playing that bad. I haven't seen Alexander do anything even close to good yet and what has Woods done to thrill you?

 

[TheComeback]

I'm not going to get into that argument again, but what you fail to recognize is that on a 45-man gameday roster, there is absolutely no room to have Maroney, Faulk, Morris, Evans, and Jordan all active - ZERO ROOM. Period. Jordan is an insurance policy. It doesn't matter if you're a 10-time Pro Bowler or a UDFA when you're inactive every week.

I've never questioned that Jordan is a quality back, but there simply isn't a role for him on this football team on a game-to-game basis as long as Maroney, Faulk, Morris, and Evans are healthy, and I've said that from the beginning.

Are you kidding again? How can a back like LaMont Jordan not have a role on this team? He can do everything that Maroney, Morris, and Faulk can do, and he can do them better than Morris and Faulk can, and maybe even Maroney. If you don't think Jordan has a place on this team, I don't know what else to say. The man is a beast.

After Morris went down last year, our running game was basically dead. BB recognizes the need for more depth at this position, and he isn't going to just cut a guy with the level of talent that LaMont Jordan possesses. Jordan was signed at a premium for a reason, and we all know that he intends to make this team. BB would be an idiot to cut him.

Until Maroney proves he can take a beating all season long, we do need four running backs, because no reasonable coach is going to expect Kevin Faulk to perform for any length of time on the ground. He is almost strictly a pass-catcher--which means without Jordan, we only have two true running backs. That is why, I believe, you WILL see four running backs on the depth chart this year.