Moss's Chase of the Checkbook indicates he's reverted to "Raider Randy"

[dhamz]

As for the Pats not be willing to commit to Moss, I believe only Tom Brady, Seymour and Thomas got more guarenteed money from the Pats.

 

[bradmahn]

And apparently someone's not up to addressing points relevant to football and needs to make the same insult three times.

Care to try to address the relevant facts here?

Everyone says concerns about Moss's character are invalid.

Clearly the front office DOES have concerns and covered themselves with this contract.

That radical thought has apparently earned me the nickname of Felger and a string of insults by obscure and irrelevant board members.

Yet it's difficult to ignore how the market values Moss in terms of guranteed money (which most would agree is the only relevant $):

Moss - 23 TDs, 98 catches 1493 yards = $12 million

Stallworth - 3 TDs. 46 catches, 697 yards = $10 million.

I'm interested in seeing how you view that as a ringing endorsement from the football world rather than an expression of concern about giving him a long-term contract with a huge bonus. I'd also be interested in seeing if you offer anything more than insults in a response.

Moss has $15 mil guaranteed to him, as per most of the reports. So that's five million more than Stallworth. Moss is also getting his 15 mill guaranteed to him over the course of three seasons, while Stallworth is getting his 10 over seven (of which he'll probably see five).

Instead of trying to spin the situation to make you look like you were less wrong than you appear now (which is entirely possible, mind you), why don't you just acknowledge that you were incorrect and think maybe they gave him a three year contract because he will be thirty-four at the end of the deal, not because they have any qualms over him reverting to the "Raider Randy," or the disgruntled Randy of the final season he was there. He hasn't shown anything other than what he has said he was the past season plus, so why would they be afraid of him "reverting" to the "malcontent" he was for two seasons in Oakland?

And with $15 million guaranteed on a three year/$27 million deal, it's almost a lock that he will live to see the end of the deal, otherwise it's a big cap loss if they cut him. If they wanted to have the option to cut him in case of the reversion, they would have done a T.O.-like deal. They didn't.

I think the most logical reason why they kept it to a three year deal is because they don't want it to turn into the Marvin Harrison albatross that is currently hanging 'round the necks of the "brain trust" in Indianapolis.

 

[JoeSixPat]

OK.

You started this thread with that when Moss said he wanted to stay in New England and that money wasn't the most important factor to him that he was lying. You believed he was only saying the right thing and his actions proved you were right. You felt the need broadcast it to the football world.

He has now signed in NE - for less than he could have gotten elsewhere. He's done what he said he would, what you said he was lying about. Your assumptions were wrong.

And now the fact is you can't type the words "I was wrong."

As for the new point you appear to be clinging to - at least get the numbers right. Per the guy who negotiated the contract, it is 15m not 12m guaranteed.

I meant to say "signing bonus" instead of "gurantee" - I was wrong

But the point remains.

With Larry Fitzgerald likely to demand in excess of $27 million guranteed what is it about Moss that sees the market dictate he should get only $12 million in a signing bonus (or $15 million guranteed)? Fitzgerald has 34 career TDs - Moss has 23 in 2007 alone.

And what is it about Moss that sees his signing bonus only $2 million more than Stallworth?

Length of contract? No - everyone knows the final years of Stallworth's are likely "fake". The only real money is guranteed money and there's something about Moss that gave the Patriots pause.

I'm not really interested in keeping this thread going - but when supposedly smart fans seem to be in denial about certain things, and need to resort to insulting me because they can't address the facts, I'm not inclined to sit there and take it.

"eom" clearly has nothing to add - or at least was waiting for someone else to argue the football points so he could say "me too" and get back to his insults.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Man, I never realized that admitting that you were wrong was such a difficult thing to do. Damn. For my part, I'll be the first to admit that I got more worried than I should have when we went into day 3 without a contract. I even started a thread saying that it may be time to start looking elsewhere if he wasn't going to sign the deal. As it turns out, I was wrong, and it didn't even kill me to admit as much.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I meant to say "signing bonus" instead of "gurantee" - I was wrong

But the point remains.

With Larry Fitzgerald likely to demand in excess of $27 million guranteed what is it about Moss that sees the market dictate he should get only $12 million in a signing bonus (or $15 million guranteed)?

What is it about Moss that sees his signing bonus only $2 million more than Stallworth?

Length of contract? No - everyone knows the final years of Stallworth's are likely "fake". The only real money is guranteed money and there's something about Moss that gave the Patriots pause.

I'm not really interested in keeping this thread going - but when supposedly smart fans seem to be in denial about certain things, and need to resort to insulting me because they can't address the facts, I'm not inclined to sit there and take it.

Stallworth received $10M in guarantees, not necessarily signing bonus. They are not one in the same. Randy is 31, Stallworth is 28, Fitzgerald is 24 - and the only reason he would require $27M in guaranteed money to do a deal is because some idiot Bidwell signed him to a ridiculous rookie deal that will cost them $28M over the next two years due to escalators he has met on a perrenial losing team. If he's traded and he gets that it will be as part of a very long term deal for amortization purposes so he doesn't kill his new teams cap. And at 24 it is reasonable to assume he will remain productive for 6-7 more years...

 

[aluminum seats]

I meant to say "signing bonus" instead of "gurantee" - I was wrong

But the point remains.

With Larry Fitzgerald likely to demand in excess of $27 million guranteed what is it about Moss that sees the market dictate he should get only $12 million in a signing bonus (or $15 million guranteed)?

What is it about Moss that sees his signing bonus only $2 million more than Stallworth?

Length of contract? No - everyone knows the final years of Stallworth's are likely "fake". The only real money is guranteed money and there's something about Moss that gave the Patriots pause.

I'm not really interested in keeping this thread going - but when supposedly smart fans seem to be in denial about certain things, and need to resort to insulting me because they can't address the facts, I'm not inclined to sit there and take it.

"eom" clearly has nothing to add - or at least was waiting for someone else to argue the football points so he could say "me too" and get back to his insults.

You should really just stop. Where you started this thread and where you are now isn't remotely the same place. You started by saying Moss' true colors were coming out and he was only looking for dollars. Now that's he's signed a contract for less than he could have gotten elsewhere, you've shifted to saying the Pats "saw something" they didn't like. It's clear you just don't like Moss and want to bash him somehow.

I don't know how much value a comment is in the 11th page of a thread, but I had to give my two cents. As another poster said, just bite the bullet and say you were off on this one. Far better that than to keep tap dancing around frantically. This is your thread, and your premise was wrong. No tragedy.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Man, I never realized that admitting that you were wrong was such a difficult thing to do. Damn. For my part, I'll be the first to admit that I got more worried than I should have when we went into day 3 without a contract. I even started a thread saying that it may be time to start looking elsewhere if he wasn't going to sign the deal. As it turns out, I was wrong, and it didn't even kill me to admit as much.

I agree. It's amazing that people can't accept the fact that others have opinions.

I think the Patriots front office had some of the same character concerns about Moss that limited the years and gurantees they were willing to pay.

I think the final numbers illustrate a great move by BB to cover himself and ensure that Moss is always hungry enough to play well and be a good teammate.

But everyone wants me to say I was wrong for having those concerns - when in fact it appears I was right, as evidenced by the contract.

I can respect the fact that others have different opinions - I just don't happen to think they've done a good job backing it up.

But I've got to say, when you've got jerks like eom doing nothing but insulting you without adding any football discussion value, it sure is tempting to come down to his level.

 

[Patrick]

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????????... YOU DONT KNOW ONE THING YOU ARE SAYING.... he deserves to get paid like everyone else... the things you are saying is nothing but pure ****!!!!!.... i am so happy Moss is back with the Pats... think before you spew raw sewage out of your pie-hole

 

[JoeSixPat]

You should really just stop. Where you started this thread and where you are now isn't remotely the same place. You started by saying Moss' true colors were coming out and he was only looking for dollars. Now that's he's signed a contract for less than he could have gotten elsewhere, you've shifted to saying the Pats "saw something" they didn't like. It's clear you just don't like Moss and want to bash him somehow.

I don't know how much value a comment is in the 11th page of a thread, but I had to give my two cents. As another poster said, just bite the bullet and say you were off on this one. Far better that than to keep tap dancing around frantically. This is your thread, and your premise was wrong. No tragedy.

Yeah - some jerk called "eom" dredged it up, and as people feel compelled to insult me I feel compelled to defend myself.

Sorry - just one of those things.

But yes - my premise was that after saying he wanted to play no where else and for reasonable money, Moss did in fact go back on his word and shopped himself around the NFL.

That concerned me and very possibly concerned the Patriots front office as well, who gave the all time TD record holding WR a signing bonus not far off from what Stallworth got in the same market.

I'm not wrong about that, no matter what insults folks want to throw my way.

 

[JoeSixPat]

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????????... YOU DONT KNOW ONE THING YOU ARE SAYING.... he deserves to get paid like everyone else... the things you are saying is nothing but pure ****!!!!!.... i am so happy Moss is back with the Pats... think before you spew raw sewage out of your pie-hole

Good post and well "thought" out as well. Did you get those statistics off of ESPN?

I've got to say, both you and eom bring a lot to the table... good to have some fresh perspectives here.

 

[otis p. driftwood]

Good post and well "thought" out as well. Did you get those statistics off of ESPN?

I've got to say, both you and eom bring a lot to the table... good to have some fresh perspectives here.

I really wanted to stay out of this...but man you're being a jerk about this.

 

[JoeSixPat]

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????????... YOU DONT KNOW ONE THING YOU ARE SAYING.... he deserves to get paid like everyone else... the things you are saying is nothing but pure ****!!!!!.... i am so happy Moss is back with the Pats... think before you spew raw sewage out of your pie-hole

I really wanted to stay out of this...but man you're being a jerk about this.

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT????????... YOU DONT KNOW ONE THING YOU ARE SAYING.... ... the things you are saying is nothing but pure ****!!!!!.... i.. think before you spew raw sewage out of your pie-hole.

(if you can't beat 'em, join 'em... forget football facts... everyone seems to prefer mindless insults around here)

 

[eom]

you bring the abuse on yourself, dumbass.

if you wanted better replies, you should have started a little more intelligent thread.
you know what they say, nancy, if you can't take the heat, shut the **** up.

 

[PatriotsReign]

Joe, Joe, Joe....over 8,000 posts and you come up with this? When are fans like you going to learn to wait until you see the verdict before you make assumptions?

I mean what the hell is this, a guessing game? We don't know what we don't know and you don't know any more than anyone else. So every single little "Randy Moss" post & thread is just a guess or a theory, right? Can someone please, please tell us why people have to come up with theories? It's just so stupid and time wasting.

The bottom line is I don't know, Joesixpack doesn't know and no else on this board knows what's up with signing Randy Moss. Sometimes I get the feeling people want to take a stab in the dark with their theories in hope they look "wicked smart" if their guess is right.

That's really sad

I WAS ABSOLUTELY DEAD-ON RIGHT AND JOE, YOU WERE WRONG....

 

[otis p. driftwood]

I WAS ABSOLUTELY DEAD-ON RIGHT AND JOE, YOU WERE WRONG....

Yes you were.

 

[otis p. driftwood]

you bring the abuse on yourself, dumbass.

if you wanted better replies, you should have started a little more intelligent thread.
you know what they say, nancy, if you can't take the heat, shut the **** up.

Not helpful. Not helpful at all.

:violent:

 

[bradmahn]

Moss has $15 mil guaranteed to him, as per most of the reports. So that's five million more than Stallworth. Moss is also getting his 15 mill guaranteed to him over the course of three seasons, while Stallworth is getting his 10 over seven (of which he'll probably see five).

Instead of trying to spin the situation to make you look like you were less wrong than you appear now (which is entirely possible, mind you), why don't you just acknowledge that you were incorrect and think maybe they gave him a three year contract because he will be thirty-four at the end of the deal, not because they have any qualms over him reverting to the "Raider Randy," or the disgruntled Randy of the final season he was there. He hasn't shown anything other than what he has said he was the past season plus, so why would they be afraid of him "reverting" to the "malcontent" he was for two seasons in Oakland?

And with $15 million guaranteed on a three year/$27 million deal, it's almost a lock that he will live to see the end of the deal, otherwise it's a big cap loss if they cut him. If they wanted to have the option to cut him in case of the reversion, they would have done a T.O.-like deal. They didn't.

I think the most logical reason why they kept it to a three year deal is because they don't want it to turn into the Marvin Harrison albatross that is currently hanging 'round the necks of the "brain trust" in Indianapolis.

Since you continue to make your argument that they have qualms over his signing, could you please address this post, JoeSixPat?

 

[JoeSixPat]

you bring the abuse on yourself, dumbass.

if you wanted better replies, you should have started a little more intelligent thread.
you know what they say, nancy, if you can't take the heat, shut the **** up.

where DO you get these football statistics eom?

Nice post once again. You really bring a lot to this forum. We're all very impressed. Not ONE relevant football point in any of your posts here or elsewhere... just flaming other members... nice.

 

[eom]

I WAS RIGHT!!!!!!11 I WAS RIGHT!11 WHY CAN'T YOU ALL SEE HOW RIGHT I WAS???

when was this thread ever about football?
this is just an old lady's gossip column.

talking to you about football has about as much value as debating the rants of the homeless guy on the corner.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Moss has $15 mil guaranteed to him, as per most of the reports. So that's five million more than Stallworth. Moss is also getting his 15 mill guaranteed to him over the course of three seasons, while Stallworth is getting his 10 over seven (of which he'll probably see five).

Instead of trying to spin the situation to make you look like you were less wrong than you appear now (which is entirely possible, mind you), why don't you just acknowledge that you were incorrect and think maybe they gave him a three year contract because he will be thirty-four at the end of the deal, not because they have any qualms over him reverting to the "Raider Randy," or the disgruntled Randy of the final season he was there. He hasn't shown anything other than what he has said he was the past season plus, so why would they be afraid of him "reverting" to the "malcontent" he was for two seasons in Oakland?

And with $15 million guaranteed on a three year/$27 million deal, it's almost a lock that he will live to see the end of the deal, otherwise it's a big cap loss if they cut him. If they wanted to have the option to cut him in case of the reversion, they would have done a T.O.-like deal. They didn't.

I think the most logical reason why they kept it to a three year deal is because they don't want it to turn into the Marvin Harrison albatross that is currently hanging 'round the necks of the "brain trust" in Indianapolis.

Fair enough. As I said I much prefer to talk football as opposed to getting down to eom's level.

First of all, apples to apples, Stallworth got a $10 million signing bonus according to reports. I've not seen details on additional gurantees. Moss got a $12 million signing bonus - and we're told $3 million more in gurantees whatever form that might be in)

But whether its an average of $4 million a year guranteed or $5 million a year, Yes, I would contend that's on the low side.

Forgive me for not recognizing what the agent claims the "true" value of a contract is - we all know that guranteed money is about all one can truly bank on.

I don't discount that he could well see every penny of it. Nor would I discount that the 3rd year could have the bulk of the salary. And I don't rule out the possibility that the Patriots have some concern about Moss getting injured.

But when the all time record holder for TDs is given a bonus not far off from someone like Stallworth - regardless of how many fake or real years are in Stallworth's contract - it should cause one to take notice and ask "why".

I think the difference you see between me and a lot of these mindless insult throwers here is that I can acknowledge the possibility that injury concerns could be a factor - but apparently none of them can acknowledge the possibility that the low bonus relates to a concern to keep Moss "hungry" as opposed to his years in Oakland.

But - because Moss signed here instead of with the Eagles as reports say he very nearly did - people feel compelled to drudge up this thread and hurl childish insults at me.

I can't help but wonder if they'd feel the same way if he signed with the Eagles.