Moss vs. Stallworth

[kerofaye]

I actually was very excited to hear the rumor of Randy possible joining this team. I remembered the guy single-handedly blow away the NY Giants 41-0 in the NFC playoff games a few years back. Couldn't envision how explosive the Brady-Moss connection would become (if everything turn out right)

Stallworth. A decent player. I would rank him lower than Deion Branch.

What do you think ?

 

[Keegs]

I seriously think Moss would kick his ass

I heard he does that Jiu-Jitsu stuff and Donte just sits around smoking weed and taking dumps.

Yeah, definiely MOss.

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

At this point, Im exhausted over the Donte Stallworth talk, , I know he still could be a Patriot.. And the more I think about it, Moss would not be a good fit.. He could sure make some plays on deep plays and jump passes in the end zone, but he wont block and in the 2000 NFC title game developed some Allagator arms.. Stallworth is a better fit all way around, but I dont know why he would leave NE with out a deal., will never know.. Bottom line I want Stallworth, dont want Moss, and still hold hope that Stallworth will be a Patriot..

 

[skaIownsIyou]

both players bring a little baggage to the table, they both have the speed to give brady the deep threat, but stallworth is the "human hamstring pull", but on the other hand moss will be, or is, 30....long term, i'd take stallworth, maybe he wont pull his hammy as much, but if the team wants to win now, then moss

 

[naclone]

as awesome as moss could be, i believe we can win without him.

and that would be my preference.

 

[shirtsleeve]

ARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!

:bricks:


MODS!!!!!! PLEASE CONDENSE THESE THREADS!!!!!

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=365937&postcount=22

Are you doing this to piss us all off?

 

[sieglo]

but stallworth is the "human hamstring pull"

I thought thatw as Chad Jackson.

 

[Displaced - Fan]

both players bring a little baggage to the table, they both have the speed to give brady the deep threat, but stallworth is the "human hamstring pull", but on the other hand moss will be, or is, 30....long term, i'd take stallworth, maybe he wont pull his hammy as much, but if the team wants to win now, then moss

I don't believe Moss has the speed anymore. He most certainly has the height and athletic ability to make the plays, but he looks to have lost the speed to me.

 

[kerofaye]

At this point, Im exhausted over the Donte Stallworth talk, , I know he still could be a Patriot.. And the more I think about it, Moss would not be a good fit.. He could sure make some plays on deep plays and jump passes in the end zone, but he wont block and in the 2000 NFC title game developed some Allagator arms.. Stallworth is a better fit all way around, but I dont know why he would leave NE with out a deal., will never know.. Bottom line I want Stallworth, dont want Moss, and still hold hope that Stallworth will be a Patriot..

Yup, I heard about the Alligator arms and non-interested in blocking. I also heard that Dillon is a malcontent. I believe BB and TB will make darn sure those things won't happen.

 

[Gunnails]

Yup, I heard about the Alligator arms and non-interested in blocking. I also heard that Dillon is a malcontent. I believe BB and TB will make darn sure those things won't happen.

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If, the Pats could sighn Moss to a deal that is at all reasonable, I would do it.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Safeties know full well that Moss takes plays off - too bad he doesn't even try to trick them from time to time.

If the ball isn't coming his way he doesn't run hard and they quickly key on other WRs, or even free themselves up to blitz or come in to stop the run.

So when you're factoring Moss's numbers, factor in how many yards and catches he costs the team by refusing to play hard on every play.

The premise of him coming here of course is that BB will have him change his ways. I'll believe that if and when I see it - though I'd prefer not to take a risk.

One thing's for sure - assuming Rodney is healthy, the first time we'd see Moss take a play off in a scrimmage, Rodney would put on one of his patented hits to remind Moss that the team doesn't appreciate such an attitude about not giving 100% on every play.

 

[pheenix11]

Donte Stallworth can't even hold Randy Moss' jockstrap.

Stallworth = More of what we already have. We already have Caldwell & Gaffney, we don't need another #3 WR.

Moss or nothing.

 

[Keegs]

Question about Moss/Stallworth situation

Hey, i realize this doens't help the number of Stallworth and Moss threads but it's an honest question that i have.

So we have an offer that we gave to Stallworth. He has until Friday to decide right?
how does that work?
AFter friday is the offer void?

what if the Raiders offer to trade Moss to the pats for a 4th round pick before friday... If this make up trade happened and the pats accepted it, then what if Stallworth said that he accepts the pats offer?

there's no way they bring both of these guys in here... i honestly don't care if we get either. But, if we somehow got another receiver (it doesn't have to be Moss) before Friday, Can we back out of the STallworth offer?

If it's confusing i'll try to retype it....

 

[JoeSixPat]

Donte Stallworth can't even hold Randy Moss' jockstrap.

Stallworth = More of what we already have. We already have Caldwell & Gaffney, we don't need another #3 WR.

Moss or nothing.

Stallworth isn't a #3 WR. And if he were we'd have no interest in him as we have that well covered with Troy or Wes Welker.

I suppose if you are just counting passes you can rank him that way - but that's not how WRs are "numbered" - #3 is a posession receiver. #1 & #2 catch the majority of passes - usually for 10 ypc and a lot of first downs.

Your deep threat WR stretches the field and give other WRs, TEs, RBs and QBs the room they need to be effective, and can do so just by pulling down 2 catches a game at 20ypc or so.

Stallworth is very different from Caldwell and Gaffney. He's not a quantity receiver - he's a quality receiver. Big plays but fewer of them.

Actually with Stallworth on the field I'd think Caldwell's YPC goes way up next season - but for now, with no deep threat, he and Gaffney and Watson remain at 13 ypc and under, and our RB and QB feel a ton of pressure.

All the more reason to sign Stallworth or sign/trade for a deep threat.

 

[Big Bucks]

This is difficult to way up IMO...

Undoubtedly Moss has been one of the finest WR's that have played in the NFL, often called a freak for his abilities. The past three or so seasons his head has not been in the game IMO, he was moved out from the Vikings because of a power struggle between Culpepper and himself, the owner kept Culpepper!(where is that owner now and the coach for that matter). He was moved to Oakland where in his first year, he played ok but didn't perform to his recent abilities, then the Oakland world caved in with the team YES THE TEAM giving up, not just Moss, Lamont Jordan, the QB whoever it was just did not perform to the previous year. The O line was just terrible, people have often stated that he is lazy, he takes time off, he's this... he is that, well I put that down to the coach's that coach him and the team that is around him, but what I think looking at him the older one gets the wiser one becomes, I honestly feel that Moss should he become a Patriot will be a different man, his time in Oakland will have shown what life is like on a bad team. Is Moss finished....maybe, but lets face it the last two years in Oakland you would not be able to tell..... IMO you cannot say he is finished as much as you cannot say he is still the finest speicman at WR the NFL has.
Contract situation is where Moss is the real problem, no WR is worth that money.....I think or bet that he will have to restructure that deal to move anywhere, as he will not be on the Oakland roster.

Stallworth is that player that had great promise but has rarely achieved huge numbers, first playing #2 to Horn in New Orleans and then replacing Owens in Philidelphia, whats the difference between Stallworth and a top notch WR, well look what Owens achieved and look at Stallworth last year...Stallworth is not a #1 WR he is a good #2. Stallworth has had his problems, mainly injury.....but drug problems have since surfaced. I personally am not that high on Stallworth mainly because I do not want to pay someone 6 years and 32million on someone that has shown nothing more than what Caldwell did this year except stretch the field and his yds per catch ratio. Is that really worth the dollar above Caldwell's worth (I'm not sold).

Talk is people do not want to trade a 1st for Moss, well personally I find this year's draft way down on previous years as regards talent, I think those at the bottom of the 1st this year would be middle/bottom 2nd on other years. I would trade a 1st for Moss, but would not take that salary, no way jose. Stallworth is value as he costs nothing, but he is not worth the contract either.

So...of the two Randy Moss would be my choice, but only on terms that are agreeable to the team and our cap.

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

Re: Question about Moss/Stallworth situation

Hey, i realize this doens't help the number of Stallworth and Moss threads but it's an honest question that i have.

So we have an offer that we gave to Stallworth. He has until Friday to decide right?
how does that work?
AFter friday is the offer void?

what if the Raiders offer to trade Moss to the pats for a 4th round pick before friday... If this make up trade happened and the pats accepted it, then what if Stallworth said that he accepts the pats offer?

there's no way they bring both of these guys in here... i honestly don't care if we get either. But, if we somehow got another receiver (it doesn't have to be Moss) before Friday, Can we back out of the STallworth offer?

If it's confusing i'll try to retype it....

Unless an offer is explicitly make irrevocable, it's always revocable. You just need to revoke it in the same manner in which it was delivered, and once you do, it's gone. I'm sure that every standard form offer sheet used by NFL teams is very explicit on the means by which it can be revoked. If the Raiders made an offer that we want to accept, we'd revoke Stallworth's offer.

In the unlikely even the offer is irrevocable, then we'd have to wait until the offer expires. But it's very unlikely that's the case. Even if the offer says it's open for a duration of time, it's still revocable at any time. It's not a contract until it's accepted. The exception would be if Stallworth purchased an actual option from the team -- that is, gave up something of value in exchange for the right to have the offer remain open. I don't think football offers work that way.

Also, note that if Stallworth wanted to accept the patriots offer, he would have to accept every single term in the offer. If he wants to make a counterproposal -- even on something very modest -- his counteroffer is a rejection of the Patriot's offer and a new offer back to them, to accept or not accept. It kills the old offer and makes it entirely void.

 

[kerofaye]

This is difficult to way up IMO...

Undoubtedly Moss has been one of the finest WR's that have played in the NFL, often called a freak for his abilities. The past three or so seasons his head has not been in the game IMO, he was moved out from the Vikings because of a power struggle between Culpepper and himself, the owner kept Culpepper!(where is that owner now and the coach for that matter). He was moved to Oakland where in his first year, he played ok but didn't perform to his recent abilities, then the Oakland world caved in with the team YES THE TEAM giving up, not just Moss, Lamont Jordan, the QB whoever it was just did not perform to the previous year. The O line was just terrible, people have often stated that he is lazy, he takes time off, he's this... he is that, well I put that down to the coach's that coach him and the team that is around him, but what I think looking at him the older one gets the wiser one becomes, I honestly feel that Moss should he become a Patriot will be a different man, his time in Oakland will have shown what life is like on a bad team. Is Moss finished....maybe, but lets face it the last two years in Oakland you would not be able to tell..... IMO you cannot say he is finished as much as you cannot say he is still the finest speicman at WR the NFL has.
Contract situation is where Moss is the real problem, no WR is worth that money.....I think or bet that he will have to restructure that deal to move anywhere, as he will not be on the Oakland roster.

Stallworth is that player that had great promise but has rarely achieved huge numbers, first playing #2 to Horn in New Orleans and then replacing Owens in Philidelphia, whats the difference between Stallworth and a top notch WR, well look what Owens achieved and look at Stallworth last year...Stallworth is not a #1 WR he is a good #2. Stallworth has had his problems, mainly injury.....but drug problems have since surfaced. I personally am not that high on Stallworth mainly because I do not want to pay someone 6 years and 32million on someone that has shown nothing more than what Caldwell did this year except stretch the field and his yds per catch ratio. Is that really worth the dollar above Caldwell's worth (I'm not sold).

Talk is people do not want to trade a 1st for Moss, well personally I find this year's draft way down on previous years as regards talent, I think those at the bottom of the 1st this year would be middle/bottom 2nd on other years. I would trade a 1st for Moss, but would not take that salary, no way jose. Stallworth is value as he costs nothing, but he is not worth the contract either.

So...of the two Randy Moss would be my choice, but only on terms that are agreeable to the team and our cap.

Agreed whole-heartedly. Why paid someone more money that you would give to Deion Branch and the guy may not be as good as Branch. Either Chad is a great WR that had injury early in his career. (Remember the Jimmy Smith in Dallas) or get a Moss

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

I'm real skeptical of Moss.

The upside is that he's never really played on a team that didn't need him. We don't need him. BB won't have any hesitation sitting his ass if he acts up, and no player on the team is going to side with Moss in that situation so it wouldn't even be a distraction. I think having that threat over his head would have a decent chance of straightening him out. So I don't see a huge downside, other than the roster spot -- which is why I'm glad we're exploring other options.

I think Moss could be an incredible weapon on a team that doesn't necessarily need him. But where he is expected to be the man, he has power.

I don't actually think the Patriots have ever been seriously interested in Moss, by the way. I think the whole thing was a gambit. They floated their interest to attempt to get a quick deal from Stallworth, who they perceived may be leaning toward NE and thought it might give them some leverage if he thought he had competition. It was a good try. Didn't work. I think we'll move on now and pass on Randy, assuming that Stallworth doesn't come around.

 

[pheenix11]

If the Patriots are going to take on a drug/injury/head case....take the one that is a proven superstar, not the one who is a proven never will be.

Moss may have some issues but at least he wasn't stupid enough to actually get caught breaking the drug policy.

Hell I'd rather have Joe Horn than Stallworth. I just don't get all the hoopla surrounding this guy considering he has never had a 1000 yard season.

Wes Welker I like a lot. Stallworth? BLEH He's like a poor man's Terry Glenn. No thanks.

 

[kerofaye]

If the Patriots are going to take on a drug/injury/head case....take the one that is a proven superstar, not the one who is a proven never will be.

Moss may have some issues but at least he wasn't stupid enough to actually get caught breaking the drug policy.

Hell I'd rather have Joe Horn than Stallworth. I just don't get all the hoopla surrounding this guy considering he has never had a 1000 yard season.

Wes Welker I like a lot. Stallworth? BLEH He's like a poor man's Terry Glenn. No thanks.

Moss doesn't even have drug problem. His vice is that he didn't motive to play hard. Walked through some run play and didn't sell the route if he isn't the primary guy. That's the downside.

Now, the upside, think about if he is excited about playing with Tom Brady and work decent hard to be a good receiver. I believe the sky is the limit even at 30.