Moss '07-09 or Gronk right now: which player is/was more valuable to the offense?

[ausbacker]

I'm inclined to go with Gronk because he's our own and hopefully we'll never seen him or Hernandez in another jersey ever.

Moss' 2007 was incredible.

 

[Dutchmaster617]

Moss - 24 TDs in 19 games
Gronk - 20 TDs in 17 games

He probably will set the record.

 

[brdmaverick]

Just think, together Gronk and Hernandez are exactly what we dreamed Daniel Graham and Ben Watson would be.

 

[jeffbiologist]

I dont think this should be close at all. Moss in his prime took a safety out of the middle of the field and opened it up for players like Welker. Gronk is more effectively using space alongside Welker and if it werent for his RAC the inside game will always be just the inside game. Moss opened up more of the field for his team mates, Gronk's success isnt leading to career years for any WR is he? You could argue Hernandez, but his role is more along the line of FB/TE rather than TE/WR right? Moss' threat on the field led directly to the development of Welker's role.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

Rob Gronkowski.

 

[Yfz01]

Jeff George was always somewhat of a enigma but he had a couple of other years that were just as good, if not better than his year in MN.

Cunningham was a different QB in MN. He stayed in the pocket more and never had as many offensive weapons available to him. He had just as productive years in Philly.

Culpepper's best year came when Moss was hobbling on a bad ankle and shoulder and needed to distribute the ball more.

Same goes for Brady. His highest TD year was 07 but I'd argue that his years in '10 and '11 were better.

Stats show QBs had good years with Randy but they also had good years without him.

Jeff George never had a better year than with Minnesota. You gotta remember, he didn't start at the beginning of the season, but his per game numbers were better than ever before. The next year he went to Washington (?) and fell back into mediocrity.

Cunningham only put up the numbers because of a great offensive line, a strong running game, and three great WR's. I truly believe an elite quarterback like Brady would have put up numbers that far surpassed his.

Culpepper was putting up unreal numbers (as was Moss) until Moss got injured against the Saints (I believe). Culpepper put up good numbers in two of the next three weeks w/o Moss, but they were against the 30th and 32nd rated pass defenses. Again, he was on an unreal pace before the Moss injury.

2000-2004 Moss is the best WR I have ever seen. As for the question, I think it's pretty even. Gronk & Hernandez >>> Moss though.

 

[strngplyr]

Gronk's success isnt leading to career years for any WR is he?

Wes Welker would certainly argue against this absurd point.

In 2011 Welker had 122 receptions. Just 1 shy of his previous high, 123. He had 1,569 yards, his previous high was 1,348 and he had 9 touchdowns, beating his previous high of 8.

Both Aaron and Rob nearly doubled (Nearly tripled, for Rob actually) their production from last season, and while Aaron is also an incredibly talented TE, his success has a lot to do with extra attention going to Gronkowski.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Add another vote for Gronk... Moss was over 30 when he arrived and ran hot & cold. Gronk is just getting fired up.

 

[Grizzafted]

if you're talking, pure talent at the position....I think it's Moss. If he had played with Brady his whole career his numbers would have been astonishing.

But in terms of VALUE....its Gronk by a mile. It's a mismatch thing. Next year you're going to see some crazy defenses.....next year, what am I talking about. NEXT WEEK. They're going to have Ed Reed basically play CB on Gronkowski, which is going to open things up for Hernandez and Branch.

 

[randomk1]

Ah c'mon guys...if we replaced Gronk with a prime Moss right now you honestly believe this offense suffers? With AH and Welker working over the middle + Branch? I honestly think it's a new NFL record for points scored.

If we happen to lose to one of the Ds i expect alot of the "we need a deep threat!" cries to come out. If we do lose then we already know how it's going down.


Randy Moss 2003 Vikings Mix - YouTube

 

[RobertWeathers]

Jeff George never had a better year than with Minnesota. You gotta remember, he didn't start at the beginning of the season, but his per game numbers were better than ever before. The next year he went to Washington (?) and fell back into mediocrity. .

Just because a QB has better per-game numbers, doesn't mena he had a better year. See Brady '10.

Cunningham only put up the numbers because of a great offensive line, a strong running game, and three great WR's. I truly believe an elite quarterback like Brady would have put up numbers that far surpassed his..

That is not the debate. The question is did Moss directly make the QB better. For RC, he was a decent QB before he got to MN and as you point out, had a ton of other offensive weapons to work with.

Culpepper was putting up unreal numbers (as was Moss) until Moss got injured against the Saints (I believe). Culpepper put up good numbers in two of the next three weeks w/o Moss, but they were against the 30th and 32nd rated pass defenses. Again, he was on an unreal pace before the Moss injury...

...and he continued to play well w/o Moss.

2000-2004 Moss is the best WR I have ever seen. As for the question, I think it's pretty even. Gronk & Hernandez >>> Moss though.

Moss is the greatest talent but Jerry Rice was a better all-around WR.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Ah c'mon guys...if we replaced Gronk with a prime Moss right now you honestly believe this offense suffers?

Now yes. With an entire training camp the offense would function at a high level.

With AH and Welker working over the middle + Branch? I honestly think it's a new NFL record for points scored.

At this point in the season, I'd rather have an 04 Branch than an 07 Moss. in the last 9 games the offense is averaging 37ppg. We're doing just fine.

If we happen to lose to one of the Ds i expect alot of the "we need a deep threat!" cries to come out. If we do lose then we already know how it's going down..

Depends on who you are referring to. If they lose to BAL I will have cried out for the need of a RB who can provide big play ability so the D would not key on the passing game. I would have also cried out for a better secondary.

Having a deep threat would be nice, but it is the least of my concerns.


Randy Moss 2003 Vikings Mix - YouTube[/QUOTE]

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

I dont think this should be close at all. Moss in his prime took a safety out of the middle of the field and opened it up for players like Welker....Moss' threat on the field led directly to the development of Welker's role.

Yes, I remember that argument. Cutting Moss would mkde Welker ineffective, irrelevant, and "just another guy".

People don't seem to say that much anymore. Most are smart that way, retreating from what they recognize was an idiotic opinion.

 

[randomk1]

Now yes. With an entire training camp the offense would function at a high level.

Well....considering that we have the use of a time machine then yes, i'd prefer an entire training camp for my argument.

 

[IllegalContact]

no complaints about the current offense. there is, however, no evidence that it is any better than the '07 offense. So far, based on the giants game, the best you can say is that it is no different than the 07 offense in bottom line results.

the 2 teams that gave problems to the pats offense this year (steelers and giants) yielded varied results in 2007. both teams defenses are manned almost the same going back to that time. what were the results? the pats rolled over the steelers, the offense executed well against the giants in the regular season, then in the superbowl, the giants solved the problem which has now been plaguing this offense ever since.

Like I said, there is no comparison that can really be made until after the next game or 2. depending on the outcome, the answer will be clear.

 

[Yfz01]

Just because a QB has better per-game numbers, doesn't mena he had a better year. See Brady '10.



That is not the debate. The question is did Moss directly make the QB better. For RC, he was a decent QB before he got to MN and as you point out, had a ton of other offensive weapons to work with.



...and he continued to play well w/o Moss.



Moss is the greatest talent but Jerry Rice was a better all-around WR.

1.) No, but having a better year means he had a better year. Can you tell me when Jeff George had a better season?? Nope, because he didn't. Not only were his per game numbers through the roof, but he also played very well in his one and only (?) playoff game.

2.) He was a decent quarterback ... 4 years prior to getting to Minnesota. Before that season most people thought he was washed up and out of his prime. The guy was backing up Brad Johnson until Johnson suffered an injury.

3.) He did continue to play well, but not nearly as well, despite going against two of the worst defenses in the league.

4.) I'll agree to disagree. Jerry Rice easily had the greatest career out of any wideout in league history, Terrell Owens might have had a better career than Moss as well. But I don't think either one was better than prime Moss.

 

[PatsDeb]

Can't answer that until these playoffs are over.

 

[RobertWeathers]

1.) No, but having a better year means he had a better year. Can you tell me when Jeff George had a better season?? Nope, because he didn't. Not only were his per game numbers through the roof, but he also played very well in his one and only (?) playoff game..

94, 95 and I think 97 were equal if not better.

2.) He was a decent quarterback ... 4 years prior to getting to Minnesota. Before that season most people thought he was washed up and out of his prime. The guy was backing up Brad Johnson until Johnson suffered an injury. .

There are tons of Qbs who got lost with one team but found another. Warner in 08. Gannon in 2000. Etc. Systems, personnel, coaching, etc all play a factor in a Qbs revival.

3.) He did continue to play well, but not nearly as well, despite going against two of the worst defenses in the league. .

Meh. he played fine. Better stats w/ Moss. Sure. Better QB? Debateable.

4.) I'll agree to disagree. Jerry Rice easily had the greatest career out of any wideout in league history, Terrell Owens might have had a better career than Moss as well. But I don't think either one was better than prime Moss.

Moss > TO
JR > Moss

 

[Yfz01]

94, 95 and I think 97 were equal if not better.

There are tons of Qbs who got lost with one team but found another. Warner in 08. Gannon in 2000. Etc. Systems, personnel, coaching, etc all play a factor in a Qbs revival.



Meh. he played fine. Better stats w/ Moss. Sure. Better QB? Debateable.



Moss > TO
JR > Moss

1.) You can't be serious. In 1994 he had the same amount of Touchdowns on nearly 200 more passes. He also threw for 6 more interceptions. He had 2 less yards per attempt. In 95' he reduced the interceptions, but he was still a lot less efficient throwing touchdown passes (4.3 % of passes to 7%). 97 was the only comparable season. Still had less yards per attempt, lower completion percentage, and scored on a lower percentage of passes (5.3% to 7%)
Jeff George NFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

2.) This is obvious, but what's the more likely reason all those QB's achieved so much success? Randy Moss/Cris Carter or just fitting in with the offensive system Minnesota ran?

3.) He was still the same QB with or without Moss. The numbers he put up were far better when Moss was on the field, however, that isn't debatable.

4.) It's all a matter of opinion on my part. The stats certainly prove you right, Jerry Rice put up incredible numbers.

----------------

Back on topic. Gronkowski has been absolutely incredible this season, but I like the answers on this page - it's too early to tell. Let's see what happens in the next few weeks before passing judgement. The position Gronk plays certainly helps. There are very few safeties in the league that can even slow him down, and most linebackers are too slow. Him and Hernandez are just mismatches.

 

[condon84]

Gronk doesn't get the treatment Moss got when he was here. Moss had a guaranteed Safety on top of him every single play. Gronk may block well on running plays, but Moss effectively took out a CB and S on running plays because of the commitment defenses had defending Moss.

Also please keep in mind that Gronk has two other legit #1 targets in Welker AND Hernandez that defenses have to account for. Moss only had Welker. Imagine if Moss had Welker AND Hernandez?