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Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Harry Boy, Apr 28, 2012.

  1. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Savage is sort of the equivalent of an Ann Coulter of the left. He's crude and outspoken. He helped coin the offensive meaning of santorum. His It Gets Project is really good and not controversial (except among perhaps homophobes), and he has done some other good things, but obviously that venue was a poor choice for his sensibility. That said, it doesn't sound like he said anything that outrageous, and I agree he should be hit in the face with a pie.
  3. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    If he had stuck to his sensibility he would have been fine. Name calling, marginalizing and belittling kids is what he's supposed to be against isn't it?
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2012
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There are right-wing Christians who seem to support anti-gay bullying. Many right-wing Christians use the Bible as a basis for excluding gays from anti-bullying protection. I think it's okay to urge people to reject those portions of the Bible that are used to justify homophobia, as well as those portions that have been used in the past to justify everything from sexism to slavery. But, I certainly think he would have done better to speak in a more inclusive way, since there are many Christians who use the Bible to defend gay rights.

    http://www.pfaw.org/rww-in-focus/updated-big-bullies-right-wings-anti-anti-bullying-strategies
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2012
  5. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    Right. I think his message took a hit because it appears he offended some kids that were interested in hearing about anti-bullying. He came across as bitter, judgmental and mean spirited which has caused some resentment.
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree. I think his speech did not serve his cause. Frankly, gays are a minority, so they need to continue working to build alliances. He did not contribute to that, and he had a chance to do so given that young people, even religious ones, tend to be me fairly open minded on the subject that so important to him.
  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I never heard of the guy before but who knows maybe he has been bullied a lot himself.......
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I have no idea if he was bullied. He's well known in gay circles and the alternative press. Generally, I think he's thought of as outrageous and humorous. But his It Gets Better campaign, directed at giving gay hope, is really quite moving. This is an example that you might respect:

    Outserve BAF: It Gets Better (Deployed U.S. Military) - YouTube
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2012
  9. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    why do you bother engage and bandy words with the least read among us?

    Do not feed the trolls, dear moderator. Seriously.
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think Harry's anti-gay. I think all our views are somewhat nuanced, even Harry's. Also, I'm a liberal, so I'm an optimistic. I continue to believe that we can save some souls if we keep on trying :)
  11. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    I guess those who walked out find it easier to stick their head in the sand than to try to engage intellectually.

    harry, since you started this thread, was what Savage said incorrect?
  12. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    Not speaking for Harry but the talk was billed as an anti-bullying one. Instead it became for many in the audience an attack on their faith. Some Christians may not agree with gay marriage for example but they also may find bullying someone over it completely unacceptable and would likely stick up for someone receiving that kind of treatment.

    If the speaker was interested in engaging intellectually with the audience from his bully pulpit then he shouldn't insult them by lumping all Christians as bullying thugs. When you tag your talk as anti-bullying and then attack a faith then you are implying that the two are one in the same. Don't put it on the audience. He heckled them. He should practice what he is preaching.
  13. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    Harry finally showed some signs of empathy. That's something that should be fed.
  14. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    OF course the hectoring and bullying by the so called 'anti bullying' guy had nothing to do with their behavior...

    :rolleyes:
  15. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Initial disclaimer: Savage should have had more restraint, since he was supposed to be the grownup there. Now...

    1. Savage says anti-gay bullying is justified by appeals to passages in Leviticus and Romans, and adds that you can safely disregard the (expletive) in the Bible.

    2. A group of offended people walk out

    3. Savage says you can tell the Bible guys in the hall he's done beating up the bible

    4. Savage says “It’s funny as someone who is on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible how pansy-assed people react when you push back.”

    What he's pointing out is that gays are beaten routinely, and it's been justified by some by appeals to the bible. His final remark is basically that it's amazing how horribly hurtful people find that assessment, who don't find the beating and taunting gays go through routinely to be hurtful.

    Like I said, he's supposed to be the grownup in the room. On that basis, if for no other reason than that the Righty Echo Chamber Blue Blazer Regulars will feast on it for weeks if not years, he should just have canned it.

    However, I fail to understand how you can say Leviticus does not condemn homosexuality. It does. It's a document of its place and time, and for here and now, it's wrong.

    PFnV
  16. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    Do you think he might be harboring a little bigotry of his own? That's how he came across. I seriously doubt that most Christians condone routine beatings of gays. He pushed back on and called some innocent people who went there to be schooled on tolerance pansy asses. I submit that they walked out because they reject marching orders from Leviticus and they weren't going to be held to that identity.
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2012
  17. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Honestly, I'm tired of the "attack on our faith" garbage when it comes to religion. If pointing out inconsistencies in how many religious adherents' views of the bible is an "attack," too bad. Do they want to take the bible literally or not? (and that goes for any religion -- if a Muslim extremist wants to claim that criticism of them murdering others in the name of Allah or the quran is an unfair attack, too f*cking bad)

    Holding a religious belief doesn't mean that your views must be respected or that they must be free from criticism.

    As for bullying, where did that occur?

    The only heckling was after they left, from what I saw.

    I guess i'll ask you the same: was what Savage said incorrect? logically inconsistent?

    What I will grant you is that he could, and perhaps should, have not called it "bull****." But, honestly, I'm guessing anybody so thin-skinned as to be upset over the word "bullsh*t" would still have been thin-skinned about the content. We'll never know, of course.
  18. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    What bullying, 13? What did he say that was bullying? or hectoring?

    I know you have a hard time with simple questions, but was what he said incorrect?

    Put some substance behind what you have to say for once :rolleyes:
  19. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    Where did he say, or even imply, that any of them do condone routine beatings of gays? He didn't make any claims about all Christians (at least none I heard).
  20. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I do not see any bullying, if criticizing a book written by men is bullying then this has taken on a whole new dimension..

    People are free to walk out, people are free to stay.. it is free speech. Religion is all regurgitated superstition for people too weak to live as free thinking human beings in peace with each other.

    These are journalism students, Dan Savage is a well known commentator and supporter of gay rights, he publishes national commentary in many newspapers, including the Seattle times, entitled "Savage Love"...

    So these students who aspire to be journalists, know what this guy is probably gonna say go to the seminar and walk out.. enraged??? God forbid what journalism is going to look like in 20 years from now..
  21. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That's a really good point.
  22. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    As Patters said, he should have been more inclusive. As PatsFaninVA said he needed to be the adult in the room. He targeted Christianity. Leviticus is an old testament work written for Jews. Some Jews and Christians will use it to spread bigotry. Conservative Islam uses the Qur’an and Hadith to institutionalize homophobia.

    Suppose a speaker went to a very racially integrated school to open student eyes on violence. Now suppose he went on and railed against violence by pointing out only examples of back violence as condoned by extremist black radical "leaders" The speaker could be absolutely accurate with his examples but would be setting a tone that violence was a problem born out of black culture.
    Would students be justifiably upset over that?

    If the speaker is looking for people to join his cause he's got to figure out a better way of spreading his message, not putting in on his "targets" to be more thick skinned.

    One more point, such targeted talking points can spread bigotry against blacks, whites, Christians, Jews or Muslims, depending on which group was targeted.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2012
  23. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    Actually I agree with that. I think some lessons could be learned by both the audience and speaker.

    Evidently the speaker wasn't interested in that though because his response was "what, you pansy asses can't suck it up and handle the truth about yourselves"?
  24. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The point is that Dan Savage has a very specific agenda, prior to attending this they should have done their homework... a future journalist should research to be informed before they attend this...

    Journalists should be able to sift through the material, no matter how unpleasant it is.. compare to David Duke speaking at a black college, shouldn't the attendees know something about him??

    In this day and age, information is readily available... and you can research anyone, sometimes you learn something when you are in an unpleasant situation or a situation that you do not agree with.. no one forced them to attend.

    Here is his website, when he wrote for the Village Voice used to read him sometimes.. his agenda is obvious.

    Savage Love by Dan Savage - Seattle Columns - Savage Love - Dan Savage - The Stranger, Seattle's Only Newspaper
  25. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    The seminar was billed to promote an anti-bullying theme as prescribed by Savage's It Gets Better Project. A project I agree is worthwhile and has an important message.

    What is the It Gets Better Project? | It Gets Better Project | Give hope to LGBT youth

    If I were going to attend the seminar billed as such It would have led me to that work, not the graphic, raunchy site you referenced. There's not much from that I could paste here because it's unsuitable for minors which was largely who he was speaking to at the high school.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2012
  26. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Boy would I love to lay into you but I know I'd get banned, I've been taking your cheap sh!t for quite awhile now and never getting involved with you, I'm amazed at the way I can control myself as I grow older, I'm smiling right now thinking about how I would have used you for a punching bag years ago if I ever crossed paths with you.
    Run to Mommy now and complain to the mods like you did when I called you a silly name............:singing:
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2012
  27. chicowalker

    chicowalker Rookie

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    And as I said, he didn't have to call it "b*ll****," and perhaps he shouldn't have...


    right, and he was pointing out the use of the bible to spread bigotry, and the hypocrisy of those who do so. Wwhat is wrong with that?

    Would fox news be upset about a speaker pointing out inconcistencies in people using the Quran for their own hate-filled agendas? Would you slam the speaker and defend Muslims who left?


    No, I don't think they would be. Most people can acknowledge that violence is a huge problem in the black community. Students walking out because a speaker pointed that out would appear as think skinned and intentionally ignorant of reality as these students appeared.


    The students who walked out weren't his "targets" unless they're bigots who use the bible to justify their beliefs.

    (If that is who they are, they're the problem, not Savage.)


    How?

    and what talking points? Pointing out that some of them are bigots and hypocrites? No, this continued meme from the right that pointing out bigotry is the real problem needs to come to an end. The problem is the actual bigots, not those who call them out for their bigotry. (btw, I'm not saying that you're usually among that cast of characters -- you're definitely not -- but on this particular matter you seem to be edging close to that, though I may not be understanding you completely)
  28. Titus Pullo

    Titus Pullo Banned

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    You earn every bit of it, with your daily racist spew-fests. I'm not the one wishing I could shoot all "liberal loons" in the face. That would be you.

    You flatter yourself. Wish as you might, that never would have happened, not then, not ever.

    You mean like you just did? Project much?
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2012
  29. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    You have got to be kidding me.

    YOU talking about cheap schit?

    YOU talking about whining to the mods?

    YOU talking about controlling yourself?

    Did you bash your head on something or are you just too hungover to think?
  30. PatsWSB47

    PatsWSB47 Rookie

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    Chico, you and I both have a problem with Harry pointing out criminal behavior and only pointing to blacks when he does. That's a similar beef I have with Savage. I think if Harry gave a seminar on bullying and only used examples of black bullying and quoted gangster songs that promoted it he'd get some push back(hell he gets it here on this board), and we all know harry wouldn't be beyond calling them pansy asses for doing so.

    Most Christians are not Old testament fundamentalists. Most Christians do not condone bullying and as a matter of fact are taught to be samaritans whenever they encounter people in distress...like when they're being bullied.

    I think the vast majority of bullying of gays is done by rednecks or immature school cliques who wouldn't know a bible verse if it hit them in the head....and the ones that do know chapter and verse are only familiar with the ones they can twist to justify their behavior. It's the hijackers of a faith that need to be called out for that. They aren't Christians. That distinction was not made. I'm not sure Savage sees a distinction. On the contrary the meme of an authentic Christian is "love thy neighbor as thyself", a verse these rednecks wouldn't quote in a thousand years.

    Granted many Christians but certainly not all do not believe homosexuality is compatible with their beliefs. That is a million miles away from believing bullying is justified or encourage by them though and to publicly call them out for that deserves some push back. That doesn't make them pansy asses. I think Savage lazily goes after the Christian right wing stereotype as being the essential cause of bullying because he thinks he will get wider support. Either that or he's a bigot himself, guilty of painting a faith with a wide brush.

    This was a seminar designed to get support for his anti-bullying "It gets Better" project. Instead it became an exercise in finger pointing and name calling.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2012

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