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More BS from the ACLU...AGAIN!

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by ELOrocks17, Jun 22, 2006.

  1. ELOrocks17

    ELOrocks17 Guest

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  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    These Bastards will do and say anything that will hurt and destroy the very Government and country that allows them to survive.

    The ACLU is just as big an enemy to America as the Muslim Terrorists.

    If America didn't have the freedom it does these scum could never exist, I'd like to see them go down to Cuba and rent an office then put a sign on the door saying "Cuban Civil Liberties Union" Castro himself would come down and shoot them, you'd never see the Pony Tailed a$s holes again, they'd feed them to their chickens.
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't understand why anyone would be against a freedom of information request. It's merely a request allowed under the law.
  4. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Did you read the article??? Or didn't you get that far???
  5. ELOrocks17

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    What if an Insurance company..before decideing how much to charge you for insurance, they demanded to see your bank statements to see what kind of lifestyle you live. Would you be happy about that?
  6. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Huh?????????
  7. ELOrocks17

    ELOrocks17 Guest

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    Exactly what i said when i heard about this utterly ridiculous demand from the ACLU..What possible benefit to America could be derived from demanding to see the recods of Haditha?
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't get your point, ELOrocks. First, insurance companies regularly ask for lots of information, about health, smoking, driving record, whatever. Second, the ACLU is interested in public disclosure, not making money. Third, the information could easily serve the Marines, especially if the higherups are attempting to cover their own a$$es and the expense of the underlings.

    Surely, during the Clinton years you were all for the various FOIA requests filed by different media and political organizations. As a big government liberal, I oppose wherever possible government secrecy. I was all for Judicial Watch's efforts to force the Clinton's to release documents. Government is only safe if it is open. You're opposing openness. I think you're letting your kneejerk distrust of the ACLU get in the way of your reasoning. In my opinion this is not a good example of the ACLU being extreme.
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Will you lighten up, Harry? What's with you lately? Have you lost your sense of humor? Are you aware that the same political battles we are having in this forum have been going on for over 200 years, and our country has survived. It's survived liberals, conservatives, incompetence, corruption, and mistakes. Lighten up. It's not as serious as you think.
  10. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I know, I HATE THE ACLU :singing: :singing: :bricks:
  11. Blue Collar

    Blue Collar Rookie

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  12. PatsFanInVa

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    Blue, that's just disturbing :scared:

    To the point: the ACLU is evidently asking for Haditha records, and I take it Harry's point is that ACLU should have a domestic agenda only (although I'm not sure he'd be any happier with Amnesty International making the request.)

    Listen up, Harry: When the United States ratifies and signs an international instrument -- such as the Geneva Conventions -- that instrument is binding on the U.S. in the international arena, but moreover becomes the law of the land.

    Haditha looks pretty bad. We're supposed to be killing bad guys not moms and kids. I've read reports from a variety of angles (including the Marines',) and it looks like they went in shooting and lobbing grenades, even after ascertaining the "bad guys" weren't in the home -- then running to the next home and doing it again.

    Is that how it happens in every engagement? I don't think so. Otherwise, we'd easily be as bad as the bad guys. Easily. If you're defending the guys responsible for Haditha, or Abu Ghraib, or Gitmo, you're not defending the regular soldier or Marine who takes his training seriously, and does what an occupying power has to do -- what these guys are trained to do -- and resist the temptation to resort to bloodbath tactics.

    It might be me, were I there, and I know that -- but that doesn't excuse Haditha. If all we can say is "in the fog of war you're under way way too much pressure, man," then we cannot honestly say there's a difference between our army of occupation and those of the totalitarian powers we've all lambasted in the past. We're certainly on a par with our enemy there, if that's how we react.

    Massacres should be investigated, so that the vast majority who fight for America the American way... not the jihadist or the totalitarian way... get respected for showing that restraint. Respect for noncombatants in wartime is all that separates our forces and forces from countries like us, and the forces of evil.

    Massacres on the part of American troops are rare but not unheard of. They should be treated as aberrations.

    Or is your opinion that they should be "business as usual"?

    PFnV
  13. ELOrocks17

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    Keep in mind that during WW2 we firebombed Tokyo...and killed 80,000 people in the process. Should we have let the war drag on for years and not bomb the city that had civillians in it? Can anyone say with absolute certanty that all the civillians were innocent? Do we not know for a fact that the terrorists hide among civillians because they know that we hesitate to shoot them?
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  14. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    All good points VA...I think the ACLU just wishes to get some sunshine on it all..THAT is what the Freedom of Information Act is all about..
    to NOT keep many things secret that the public should nknow about..Given how many MORE documents are now labelled "Top Secret"..and higher..declassifying socuments should bewelcomed..
  15. ELOrocks17

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    What? Is the ACLU afraid Murtha isn't smearing the Marines enough?
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  16. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Firstly Murtha is a Marine..and has many connections with many high level Armed services people..I think he's igf anything totally embarrassed by what the Marines did. But I do not think he should be prejudicing the case.with specifics...the ACLU is looking for information to be made public...and it should be made known..or do you wish it all be hidden away?? Covered up?? It seems that what you wish for..
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  17. ELOrocks17

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    Well if these Marines allegedly murdered American civillians...in America..then yes, they have a case. But an organizatin supposedly dedicated to protecting American civil liberties... why are they bothering inverstigating things that go on outside of the US? it does not fit.
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  18. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Try hard, and I know it's not easy for you, to not be a moron.
    Are you actually comparing the deeds of WWII Japan to those of modern Iraqis? Where do you see the similarities between Hirohito's Empire and the people of Iraq? Wake TFU!
  19. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What the f-ck does Ann Coulters adams apple have to do with the Scummy ACLU?

    I'd rather look at Annies Apple than McKinneys Hair.
    :rocker: "me too Harry"
  20. PatsFanInVa

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    The Tokyo and Dresden cases, along with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, are in a definite bizarre black hole in history, based on the scope and severity of the atrocities committed by the other guys, in those cases.

    BUT, they're settled only because history's rolled over them. We do not know if the terror bombings of those cities was at all effective. We remember these events as uncontroversial, but at the time of the European bombing campaign, British officers and statesmen severely questioned the road they, and we, were going down. What we don't know is whether WWII might have gone the other way without those mass attacks on civilians. What we do know is that in the context of the Nazis and Hirohito's Japan, the terror bombing of those cities was considered what needed to be done to defeat regimes that were doing far worse, and would continue to do so expansively, in the event we allowed them respite.

    Regardless of your belief regarding those episodes in WWII, it is not the case in Iraq that the Iraqi insurgency will set up death camps in America, use Chinese by the hundreds of thousands in biochem experiments, or rape Nanking.

    Of course, this magnification of Saddam's intent and means -- right down to the "as bad as Hitler" detail of Bush's rhetoric -- goes exactly to such calculations of justification.

    You've got it backwards, Harry. It might not have been okay even then. In that conflict, the mind boggles at just how bad it could all get. I personally believe that a flight of bombers should have been directed at the rail head at Auschwitz, or the camp itself, rather than to bomb primarily civilian targets instead (which was often the case.)

    But if it was okay in WWII, that's just the beginning of a slippery slope that the worst of any jingoistic society will gladly slide down. One more reason never to resort to the willful targeting of non-combatants... it sets precedents.

    Regardless of what you believed about the aerial bombardments during that conflict, however, the willful slaughter of civilians is neither required nor right in the Iraqi context, not by the wildest stretch of the imagination. Ask any marine or soldier what they're trained to do. Ask any Marine how killing families lines up with the concept of "honor."

    Sorry man... you can't just give these guys passes. You have to look into it. And if ACLU decides to be the ones to bring the pressure, good on 'em.

    Everybody serving in Iraq, or who has served there, is under a tremendous amount of pressure and stress... it's what happens when you're an occupier. Not every one of them takes part in a massacre.

    All that said -- surprise me. Pull something out of your local rules of engagement that says cutting down crowds is within "policy." Then the whole thing is on the head of the brass, that puts these guys in these situations. I sure as hell would not want to be them. I don't think they'll come home and not see those faces late at night. I think they just lost it -- "them or us" -- and everybody counted as "them."

    Thing is, you cannot fight a war that way and be the good guys. You have to take massacres very seriously -- if you conclude they're inevitable, you're saying something about either your own training, or the type of war you've chosen. And make no mistake, we, as a nation, have chosen this war, via our appointed president.

    PFnV
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