More Browns Implosion: Banner and Lombardi Stepping Down

[ctpatsfan77]

Based on what they did in their one season in Cleveland, I'd say so. Lombardi did a very good of purging the roster of garbage, getting returns where he could, and setting the team up with assets that could translate to future success.

Looked to me like Lombardi and Chud both deserved another year to build on the fact that they turned the corner in 2013. Rebuilding from where that team was in 2012 is not a one-year job. In general, rebuilding is almost never a one-year job, unless something enormous like upgrading from Curtis Painter to Andrew Luck happens. Meanwhile, the Browns are still stuck with Brandon Weeden from the last regime.

Lombardi and Chud were in the process of installing the team that they wanted to build, and if you're not going to let them do that, then why hire them in the first place? If Bob Kraft was this stupid, he would have fired Belichick after 2000, since he clearly wasn't getting it done after that 5-11 season.

The reality is that it took one year to get rid of a bunch of the guys that they didn't want; it logically follows that the next step is to take the guys that they actually want. It's impossible to evaluate the job that they did until you have that second piece of the puzzle.

OTOH, Kraft gave up a first-round draft pick to get Belichick. With that kind of price, he'd have had to be pretty darn certain Belichick wasn't going to get things done to fire him after one season.

 

[borg]

Are you arguing that hiring Lombardi and Banner was a better move than firing them?

Cleveland is in a great position to improve their club thanks to Lombardi's stockpiling.Yet.... It seems you believe Haslam is making wises choices ALL OF A SUDDEN. Are you basing this on the broken clock theory?

 

[mgteich]

Cinci is a much better organization than Cleveland. Cleveland fans WISH that they could have had Cinci's record over the past few years.

Yeah I said in the other Browns thread that they have a ton of picks for this next draft and already a good team. All they need to pull a Chiefs and go for 10+ wins is a QB.

That's why I think a trade for Mallet makes a lot of sense.

Steelers and Ravens are in a bad moment and Cincinatti is a joke. Browns have a shot if they get some studs in the next draft, I think they can make a few moves and trade down a little to stockpile for the future but not much, you give 2 years and Ravens and Steelers are back in the business. The Browns really need to make a splash in the next draft and FA.

 

[borg]

This is pretty crazy. Don't know how true it is, but wow.

Firing Mike Lombardi and Joe Banner: What really happened? | Dawg Pound Nation

Two points from the article
1) Sounds an awful lot like Kansas City under Pioli. New management sees the only way to transform away from a losing culture is to make wholesale changes...both on the field and within the organization...top to bottom. And of course people resist change....and the skirmishes begin.
2) Where on the "desirability list" for FAs do you think Cleveland ranks? Despite an equal allotment of $$$, top free agents usually can get both the desired money and the desired city. For teams like Cleveland, Buffalo, Jacksonville, etc to land a premium player, they have to overpay and I just don't see Lombardi breaking the bank for that one special player. The Cleveland fans should be ecstatic that have a surplus of picks and not have to over pay for the OchoStinkos and Haynesworths looking for that last big check.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

This is pretty crazy. Don't know how true it is, but wow.

Firing Mike Lombardi and Joe Banner: What really happened? | Dawg Pound Nation

I take this self styled insider with a grain of salt but it is interesting to consider that Lombardi may have screwed himself as GM by possibly telling the owner he had Josh McD in the bag as HC and then being embarrassed in public when Josh said, "No, thanks!" Doesn't help your GM cred with a dubious boss to fumble a big one like that.

 

[BradyFTW!]

OTOH, Kraft gave up a first-round draft pick to get Belichick. With that kind of price, he'd have had to be pretty darn certain Belichick wasn't going to get things done to fire him after one season.

Pretty much, although I'd alternately state it as: he must have been pretty damn certain that Belichick was the real deal to give up a first round pick for him in the first place, and it's hard to imagine that anything could happen in one year with an inherited bad roster to change that evaluation enough to warrant firing him.

 

[AQPE]

So Haslam has had 5 head coaches in 6 years now. He's also had 5 GM's in 6 years.

Perhaps this fellow's "Execuitve Judging Skills" are not top-notch?.

Not to nitpick, but Haslam has only been their owner for about a year or so. His predecessor, Randy Lerner, may still prove to be the more unstable of the Browns' last 2 owners, but ol' Jimmy ain't exactly emulating his idols in the NFL, the Rooney family, not that his fellow Stillers fans mind too much.

But what the hell do I know, I would have told you a couple years ago that Pumped and Jacked would fall on his face in Seattle :bricks:

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Pretty much, although I'd alternately state it as: he must have been pretty damn certain that Belichick was the real deal to give up a first round pick for him in the first place, and it's hard to imagine that anything could happen in one year with an inherited bad roster to change that evaluation enough to warrant firing him.

So soon we forget. The usual suspects in the Boston press wanted his head for a worse than Pete Carroll performance going 5-11 with the Great Drew Bledsoe at QB. After all, Drew had taken them to the SB. The 0-2 start in 2001 with Drew only amplified the critics. They had one big hurrah when Drew recovered from injury deemed himself fit to play and BB obstinately stuck with his 6th round draft pick. The last little hurrah came when the Great One was traded to Buffalo & started off 2002 with a bang.

 

[BradyFTW!]

So soon we forget. The usual suspects in the Boston press wanted his head for a worse than Pete Carroll performance going 5-11 with the Great Drew Bledsoe at QB. After all, Drew had taken them to the SB. The 0-2 start in 2001 with Drew only amplified the critics. They had one big hurrah when Drew recovered from injury deemed himself fit to play and BB obstinately stuck with his 6th round draft pick. The last little hurrah came when the Great One was traded to Buffalo & started off 2002 with a bang.

If you're ever looking to fill a hat with 1,000 examples of why the Boston sports media sucks beyond comprehension, this belongs in the hat as one such example. The crazy thing is that it's not even an especially bad one.

 

[Gumby]

I take this self styled insider with a grain of salt but it is interesting to consider that Lombardi may have screwed himself as GM by possibly telling the owner he had Josh McD in the bag as HC and then being embarrassed in public when Josh said, "No, thanks!" Doesn't help your GM cred with a dubious boss to fumble a big one like that.

by that guys timeline it also makes you question - who really did the richardson deal? Lombardi or Farmer? If Farmer; then the josh backout was really a negative hammer with no previous positives to balance it out.

 

[Triumph]

Cavaliers are a mess too.

Sucks to be Cleveland.

Leaveland.

Nobody stays long.

 

[Triumph]

What a cluster****. The crazy thing is, Lombardi was actually doing a pretty good job for them IMO. With a full year of competence at QB (which could be achieved by something as simple as Brian Hoyer being healthy), there's a very good chance that they would be a playoff team. Meanwhile, half a year later, getting a first for Trent Richardson looks like an absolute steal. Repairing the damage of the Holmgren regime was never going to happen overnight, and apparently this is the thanks that Lombardi and Chud get for doing all of the dirty work and creating a reasonably bright outlook for a garbage organization.

In short, Jimmy Haslam is a ******* idiot. They actually had the foundations of a good organization being built... and then they fired both the coach and the GM for no good reason whatsoever. It would be pretty funny if I didn't feel so badly for Browns fans.

It was highway robbery. Richardson is a bust.

Everytime that Ive heard Lombardi speak on sports radio he was well spoken and intelligent. BB thinks highly of him and a few others. Those folks are an esoteric group IMO.

 

[Triumph]

Browns fans are loving it

They always hate the current GM and think the next guy is the 2nd coming of Ozzie Newsome.

 

[Triumph]

I take this self styled insider with a grain of salt but it is interesting to consider that Lombardi may have screwed himself as GM by possibly telling the owner he had Josh McD in the bag as HC and then being embarrassed in public when Josh said, "No, thanks!" Doesn't help your GM cred with a dubious boss to fumble a big one like that.

I wonder how much the uncertainty at ownership impacted Mickey D's decision?

Haslam might be making liscence plates this time next year and I surmise that Belichick would advise Mickey D to steer clear of a squirrelly ownership after his dealings with Modell.

 

[Ring 6]

It was less than a year. They were 3-2 before Hoyer got hurt. Plus, ask anyone in Indianapolis whether Lombardi picked their pockets clean on the Trent Richardson trade.

I'm arguing that the owner is a lousy judge of executives in the first place - - given what is happening at Pilot and the fact that he has had 5 HCs and 5 GM's in 6 years as a NFL owner.

It's rather obvious.

From Wikipedia:

In 2012, he reached an agreement with Browns owner Randy Lerner to purchase the franchise for $1 billion (USD)

Haslam has owned the team for 2 seasons. He can't be responsible for 5 HCs and 5 GMs in 6 years.

Its not like people were breaking down doors to hire Lombardi, and it sounds like he has some problems as GM too.

I'm not sure how uncontextualized stories about his other business applies to his decision to fire Mike Lombardi, other than thinking a slam against him makes your opinion stronger. It would seem that he made some pretty decent decisions over the years in building a fortune.

Again the point was that it is not a sign of stupidity to fire a bad employee quickly.

 

[Ring 6]

Cleveland is in a great position to improve their club thanks to Lombardi's stockpiling.Yet.... It seems you believe Haslam is making wises choices ALL OF A SUDDEN. Are you basing this on the broken clock theory?

I am saying firing a bad employee quickly is a smart thing. The post I was responding to said it was a Dan Snyder like move. There is no evidence of that.

 

[Ring 6]

Based on what they did in their one season in Cleveland, I'd say so. Lombardi did a very good of purging the roster of garbage, getting returns where he could, and setting the team up with assets that could translate to future success.

Looked to me like Lombardi and Chud both deserved another year to build on the fact that they turned the corner in 2013. Rebuilding from where that team was in 2012 is not a one-year job. In general, rebuilding is almost never a one-year job, unless something enormous like upgrading from Curtis Painter to Andrew Luck happens. Meanwhile, the Browns are still stuck with Brandon Weeden from the last regime.

Lombardi and Chud were in the process of installing the team that they wanted to build, and if you're not going to let them do that, then why hire them in the first place? If Bob Kraft was this stupid, he would have fired Belichick after 2000, since he clearly wasn't getting it done after that 5-11 season.

The reality is that it took one year to get rid of a bunch of the guys that they didn't want; it logically follows that the next step is to take the guys that they actually want. It's impossible to evaluate the job that they did until you have that second piece of the puzzle.

I disagree. Chudzinski is not Bill Belichick, so the comparison is silly.

Getting rid of guys is not really an accomplishment.
The direction they were headed in was losing their last 7 games and 10 of 11.
Other than trading away Richardson, which almost caused a fan revolt, by the way, its hard to see what success they had.

The replaced a fired staff that was 5-11 and went 4-12 scoring less and allowing more points while, again, going 1-10 after October 3rd.
I would think that winning 1 out of 11 games would cause me to really assess whether the people I have in charge are taking me in the right direction.

Right or wrong, it certainly isn't stupid to bail on the failure of that regime.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I disagree. Chudzinski is not Bill Belichick, so the comparison is silly.

Getting rid of guys is not really an accomplishment.
The direction they were headed in was losing their last 7 games and 10 of 11.
Other than trading away Richardson, which almost caused a fan revolt, by the way, its hard to see what success they had.

The replaced a fired staff that was 5-11 and went 4-12 scoring less and allowing more points while, again, going 1-10 after October 3rd.
I would think that winning 1 out of 11 games would cause me to really assess whether the people I have in charge are taking me in the right direction.

Right or wrong, it certainly isn't stupid to bail on the failure of that regime.

This is what happens when your top two quarterbacks are injured. Pretty much the same would happen to most teams if they were forced to start their third QB for an extended period of time.

When you bring in a new regime to a team with no quarterback, you can generally expect that the team won't win a ton of games until it gets its quarterback. You can furthermore expect that it will lose almost all of its game if the multiple stopgaps that it has in place all get injured.

As I said in my previous post, rebuilding is a multi-year process. Step one was complete. Step two never happened.

As far as Chudzinski not being Bill Belichick, Belichick wasn't 'Bill Belichick' back in 2000, either. He was a coach who, right or wrong, was perceived to have failed at his first stop, and who had gone 5-11 in his first year on his new job (after the previous coach was fired for going 9-7).

Those are just the facts. Luckily for all of us, Robert Kraft isn't a complete moron like Jimmy Haslam, and he gave Belichick a chance to build the team that he actually wanted with a quarterback that he actually wanted. The results are what they are.

Would Chudzinski/Lombardi have had the same success? Obviously not, probably. But it's impossible to gauge what success they were capable of in any meaningful way, since they were fired before the rebuild could even begin.

 

[lurker1965]

Re: OT: More Browns Implosion - Banner and Lombardi Stepping Down

I guess we now know why McDaniels did not take the job...

 

[Ring 6]

This is what happens when your top two quarterbacks are injured. Pretty much the same would happen to most teams if they were forced to start their third QB for an extended period of time.

How many teams have gone 1-10 to end a season? Campbell was actually their #2 at the start of the season.
Blaming a 1-10 stretch on Brian Hoyer being inured should get you fired.

When you bring in a new regime to a team with no quarterback, you can generally expect that the team won't win a ton of games until it gets its quarterback. You can furthermore expect that it will lose almost all of its game if the multiple stopgaps that it has in place all get injured.

They got worse. I'm sure the owner didn't fire the coach who went 5-11 in order to go 4-12 and lose 10 of 11.

As I said in my previous post, rebuilding is a multi-year process. Step one was complete. Step two never happened.

As far as Chudzinski not being Bill Belichick, Belichick wasn't 'Bill Belichick' back in 2000, either. He was a coach who, right or wrong, was perceived to have failed at his first stop, and who had gone 5-11 in his first year on his new job (after the previous coach was fired for going 9-7).

Of course he was Bill Belichick.
Would you like to compare the resumes of the 2?

Those are just the facts. Luckily for all of us, Robert Kraft isn't a complete moron like Jimmy Haslam, and he gave Belichick a chance to build the team that he actually wanted with a quarterback that he actually wanted. The results are what they are.

If Haslam fired BB after one year he would be an idiot. Firing Rob Chudzinski, not so much.

Would Chudzinski/Lombardi have had the same success? Obviously not, probably. But it's impossible to gauge what success they were capable of in any meaningful way, since they were fired before the rebuild could even begin.

There is no requirement to wait around for years of proof they will fail. The owner clearly found them to not be the answer. There are myriad potential reasons, he worked with them every day for a year, all you have is excuses for failure. He didn't fire them because of their record, he fired them because of how they ran the team. If they gave him confidence in their abilities they would be employed. Neither has anything in their background to suggest he is so wrong.
The point is you are calling him stupid to fire guys he felt would not get the job done, because you wanted to see them fail longer first, but there is more reason to believe they weren't going to get the job done than that they were.

In any event, my point was simply that when you determine you have the wrong people, getting rid of them quickly is the best move.