Mind Changed on Seymour?

[Bostonian1962]

So, some folks here didn't like the move of trading Richard Seymour. They didn't care that all the cap space was being opened up. They didn't care that the draft pick gained, could likely be a Top 10 pick.

After the Raiders game one, when Seymour had 2 sacks, and overall played well, they liked the trade even less.

Well, I would be interested in hearing folks opinion of the trade, now 5 weeks in.

In Game Two Seymour had: 2 solo tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles
In Game Three Seymour had: 3 solo tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles
In Game Four Seymour had: 2 solo tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles
In Game Five Seymour had: 1 solo tackle, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles

I wonder if BB had a hunch about what he was doing? Thoughts? Comments? Anybody change their mind yet?

 

[Deus Irae]

I've not changed my mind.

 

[captain insano]

So, some folks here didn't like the move of trading Richard Seymour. They didn't care that all the cap space was being opened up. They didn't care that the draft pick gained, could likely be a Top 10 pick.

After the Raiders game one, when Seymour had 2 sacks, and overall played well, they liked the trade even less.

Well, I would be interested in hearing folks opinion of the trade, now 5 weeks in.

In Game Two Seymour had: 2 solo tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles
In Game Three Seymour had: 3 solo tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles
In Game Four Seymour had: 2 solo tackles, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles
In Game Five Seymour had: 1 solo tackle, 0 sacks, 0 forced fumbles

I wonder if BB had a hunch about what he was doing? Thoughts? Comments? Anybody change their mind yet?

i think its safe to say Richard isn't a happy camper and its affecting his play big time.

 

[MassPats38]

I understood the purpose of the trade and still support the decision as far as the best interests of the team in the long run.

As far as Seymour, I still believe he would be the best man for that position on the Pats this season. Oakland is so dysfunctional at this point it would be tough to look at game statistics and get anything meaningful from them as far as abilities (e.g., if the other side of the line is weak, everything may be running in that direction, meaning Seymour is doing his job but not getting the opportunities thus no statistics).

 

[signbabybrady]

I was on the fence then and I am still on the fence now.

On one hand the potential top ten pick looms large but on the other hand it isn't like our D-line has been lights out. I don't care what his stats look like you can't sit there and say he wouldn't help and what did the cap space do?

I think this one should be revisited after this season.

but since you brought it up now I ask this what would you rather have Seymour plus next years 3 and 5 or Burgess plus a 1 two drafts from now?


As I said I am still on the fence but leaning toward not liking it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I've not changed my mind.

And we all know only one thing will...

 

[signbabybrady]

I understood the purpose of the trade and still support the decision as far as the best interests of the team in the long run.

this is a true statement but its hard not to see the present as more important when its not your job to make this team competive year in and year out

 

[Spiral]

Nope.

I was trying to think of how many current NFL players would be worth a lottery pick for one year's worth of service. I came up with three: Brady, Manning, and Adrian Peterson. Can't think of any others.

 

[borg]

Unless the Patriots trade for a high priced player over the next few days, all the cap savings go into Kraft's pocket. As far as Seymour goes, he does get to wear black....on sunny days

 

[Bostonian1962]

I was on the fence then and I am still on the fence now.

On one hand the potential top ten pick looms large but on the other hand it isn't like our D-line has been lights out. I don't care what his stats look like you can't sit there and say he wouldn't help and what did the cap space do?

I think this one should be revisited after this season.

but since you brought it up now I ask this what would you rather have Seymour plus next years 3 and 5 or Burgess plus a 1 two drafts from now?


As I said I am still on the fence but leaning toward not liking it.

That is a very fair counter-question. Here's the part I'm "on the fence" about, and it's with regard to the Burgess part. Because I want to see if he gets better, the more he is immersed in this defense, I will take the same position as you. That is, I want to revisit after the season. I am fine with the Seymour trade, and always have been. I have long expressed my frustration that his level of play dropped so significantly after he signed the huge deal.

That's a ton of money to get off the books, and frees up alot of space to do other things. He has not been the monster of a disruptive force that he once was. In two years, when the Pats are drafting a 21 year old football player in the top ten, I'll like the move even more.

I have not given up on Burgess, but need to see more, and thus my comment.

 

[MassPats38]

this is a true statement but its hard not to see the present as more important when its not your job to make this team competive year in and year out

I agree, but fully embracing that philosophy means paying for the best players and mortgaging long-term success for the possibility of one good season. The Niners did that years ago and it failed miserably, relegating themselves to salary cap hell for years by paying to keep current players. Players age and decline over time, so a current good player is not necessarily a good player one or two years down the road.

Without knowing what the front office is doing with the current salary cap space, or why it needs that space when it spends to the cap every year, you just don't know why the team made the move in the first place. If that goes to resigning Wilfork rather than losing him next season, it was a necessary evil. Losing Wilfork to keep Seymour for a year wouldn't make sense. That is an "all in" poker philosophy, which this team has never endorsed, even when it means losing the occasional good player.

I would agree that trading Seymour to stockpile a future draft pick in and of itself would make no sense given the speculative value of a current college player in the NFL. You just cannot tell why the team went in that direction at this point.

 

[muzz]

Unless the Patriots trade for a high priced player over the next few days, all the cap savings go into Kraft's pocket. As far as Seymour goes, he does get to wear black....on sunny days

Is that so?
What if they have to bring someone in later in the year, where is that $ gonna come from the salvation Army?
Is Seau playing for free this year?

 

[Bostonian1962]

Is that so?
What if they have to bring someone in later in the year, where is that $ gonna come from the salvation Army?
Is Seau playing for free this year?

I was going to say the same thing. Well said.

 

[BradyManny]

I've not changed my mind.

Same here. I think the earliest we'll know if this is a good trade or not is around 11pm Feb 7th. This is a team that had expectations of Super Bowl going into the season, Seymour was one of the 3 best players on the defense, and his absence certainly does not help us win the Super Bowl.

As for his #s so far, I'm not too concerned about this. All I know is, my eyes tell me Jarvis Green is a good player, but not as good against the run as Richard Seymour, and that this team could use Big Sey's interior pass rush.

 

[Deus Irae]

I was going to say the same thing. Well said.

. So I have the Pats under their adjusted cap by about $5.16 million.

Miguel's UNOFFICIAL 2009 Patriots Salary Cap Information Page

That doesn't count Seau's signing (it was last updated on September 9), but the team is still clearly not maxing out the cap. Whether or not there's 'pocketing' involved is a matter I'll leave for you all to opine about.

 

[Zeus]

Reasonable people can disagree as to whether this was a good deal for the Patriots, particularly with respect to their ability to compete in 2009. (I happen to think that Belichick saw a decline in the level of play and got value before things deteriorated further.)

But there is absolutely no question this was a terrible deal for the Oakland Raiders.

 

[JD10367]

Considering the Pats were almost definitely losing him after this year, I still think it was a good deal. A probable high 1st for a guy set to walk who was approaching 30 and has already had some injury issues? It's a no-brainer. No player is that indispensible.

Frankly, the D-line has maddened me for seasons even with Seymour because, for a line with such supposed studs on it, they seem to disappear for long stretches of time. I see too many plays where you see four D-linemen getting easily handled while the QB has all day to throw. If the Pats aren't scheming on D, then the D-line seems pretty average a lot of the time.

It's highly unlikely this season will come down to one pivotal play that the Pats will miss, lose the game, be bounced from the playoffs, and everyone points to it and says, "See that?!? With 100% certainty, if we had Richard Seymour, that play doesn't happen!" This team will live and die more on whether or not Brady stops being off-target than whether or not Richard Seymour was here...

 

[BSR]

Those stats are meaningless. Through 5 games this season Seymour has 11 solo tackles with 2 sacks and no FF. Through 5 games last season Seymour had 10 solo tackles with 1 sack and no FF. Last year Seymour had a very good season.

 

[jbb9s]

Nope.

I was trying to think of how many current NFL players would be worth a lottery pick for one year's worth of service. I came up with three: Brady, Manning, and Adrian Peterson. Can't think of any others.

Interesting.

Except belichick traded Seymour for a 3rd. Thats what happens to its value when it is 2 seasons deferred.

I bet the list just grew.

 

[BelizePats]

I'm still liking the trade a lot.
Its a little short term pain for some long term gain.
Over the past couple of years, our D line has not been the anchor I'd hoped it would be. Not with 3 first rounders who I often heard comprised the best D line in the game?
The lack of pass rush over the past few years gas been a big issue, with Seymour.

The raiders were so stupid to make this trade
They are as bad as ever and will still be dreadful in 2010. We'll get a top 5 pick for someone we would have lost at the end of this year anyway!
Would we be better with him on the team today? YES
Would we have lost him to free agency after this season? YES
Will we be better long term both in term of the money freed up to sign Biog Vince or whomever and a top 5 in 2011? YES

Great trade!!!