Mills article

[DaBruinz]

Right. I was saying that we'll never see him line up at TB, in a Dillon sense.

I'm not sure anyone was saying that we'd see him lined up at TB in a Dillon sense. What I pointed out is that Chris Cooley hasn't carried the ball either, and he's an H-back. Larry Centers DID run the ball on occasion and Mills may be asked to do that. He does have the agility and quickness. He's also got some speed and with his size, IF he has the instincts, the Pats could use him on draw plays on occasion just to keep the defense a bit honest.

 

[pats1]

I'm not sure anyone was saying that we'd see him lined up at TB in a Dillon sense. What I pointed out is that Chris Cooley hasn't carried the ball either, and he's an H-back. Larry Centers DID run the ball on occasion and Mills may be asked to do that. He does have the agility and quickness. He's also got some speed and with his size, IF he has the instincts, the Pats could use him on draw plays on occasion just to keep the defense a bit honest.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=422784&postcount=5

 

[DaBruinz]

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showpost.php?p=422784&postcount=5

First off, that is not this thread. Secondly, many people get H-back and HB confused.

Also, Mills will probably be the #2 FB (behind Evans) and the #2 H-Back (behind Watson). And, IF he shows instincts to be able to run the ball, who says he won't do it? Up until last year, Mike Furrey had been a safety. Mills, besides playing TE only ever played LB (his senior year's in HS and at Tulsa). What is to say he couldn't make the switch to RB? His agility and quickness rivals many of the RBs that have come out the past couple of year. For this year's draft, only Garrett Wolfe and Ahmad Bradshaw had better agility and quickness numbers than Mills. During Mills draft year, Only Reggie Bush and Jerome Harrison had similar numbers. Mills numbers and height also make him a viable option at WR. And we could end up seeing him there on a regular basis.

I don't know what the Pats plans are for him. I just know he's a talented kid who has damn good agility and quickness numbers and has natural, pass-catching hands. He's the type of player you FIND a place for.

 

[pats1]

First off, that is not this thread. Secondly, many people get H-back and HB confused.

Right, but I genuinely think some people believe Mills is in the mold of a Heath Evans (FB/TB), not a Chris Cooley (TE/FB).

Also, Mills will probably be the #2 FB (behind Evans) and the #2 H-Back (behind Watson). And, IF he shows instincts to be able to run the ball, who says he won't do it?

He hasn't run the ball yet, so that's equivalent to him lining up at OT. It could happen, but it hasn't yet.

Up until last year, Mike Furrey had been a safety.

Not exactly. He was a wide receiver for his first few years, and was switched to safety in his final year with the Rams.

Mills, besides playing TE only ever played LB (his senior year's in HS and at Tulsa). What is to say he couldn't make the switch to RB? His agility and quickness rivals many of the RBs that have come out the past couple of year. For this year's draft, only Garrett Wolfe and Ahmad Bradshaw had better agility and quickness numbers than Mills. During Mills draft year, Only Reggie Bush and Jerome Harrison had similar numbers. Mills numbers and height also make him a viable option at WR. And we could end up seeing him there on a regular basis.

He's versatile, but let's not get out of hand. He'll play in the slot, at the line as a TE, and as a blocking FB. But anything beyond that is untested waters.

I don't know what the Pats plans are for him. I just know he's a talented kid who has damn good agility and quickness numbers and has natural, pass-catching hands. He's the type of player you FIND a place for.

Right. The only things we have to go off so far are his performances in the preseason (highlighted above) and the most recent minicamp. And from the reports from minicamp, he was running wild catching balls, not running with them.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Patrick Pass was hardly a devastating blocker, that's why Seymour, Klecko, etc., got some time in the backfield. Pass wasn't an outstanding pass catcher or runner either but he stayed on the team for years playing in the kicking game. Mills has much more raw talent than Pass and threatens a much bigger play due to his skills catching the ball then running with it - he gave LB's fits in coverage in college and even Kyle Brady noted how well Mills can move at the passing camp.

So, it would seem the only way Mills doesn't make the team is that he stinks on special teams - and that seems unlikely since Mills apparently is a high effort/do-anything-asked type of player. Mills would fill Pass's spot more than he'd be counted as a tight end.

I agree that Mills will have shot to make this team on STs and contribute in many other ways, but I have a much different view of Patrick Pass than you do. Pass at 235 was not a devastating "lead" blocker, but he was a very good open field blocker which helped him on STs and was a tool BB used in the running game. There was a report on Pass where they talked about how he had initially been considered for a conversion to WR, I don't recall him dropping too many passes when he was used in the passing game. His running during the 2005 game was decent, much better than I expected.

I was disappointed that Mills was drafted over Mike Hass in 2006, but after seeing him in Preseason I see why the Pats chose him, he's a similar player to Hass, but heavier and more versatile. We'll see what he can do after a year to learn the offense and develop under Woicik and Nash (and now Davis), not to mention Fears, Mangurian, Scarnecchia, and Seeley.

 

[DaBruinz]

Right, but I genuinely think some people believe Mills is in the mold of a Heath Evans (FB/TB), not a Chris Cooley (TE/FB).

He hasn't run the ball yet, so that's equivalent to him lining up at OT. It could happen, but it hasn't yet.

And no one said otherwise in this thread. That is why I put the big IF there. So why is it that you insist on beating a dead horse?

Not exactly. He was a wide receiver for his first few years, and was switched to safety in his final year with the Rams.

Thanks for the correction. I hadn't realized that Furrey had started as a WR. BTW, do you know what Furrey did between 2000 and 2003? Furrey's draft year was 2000. OH.. found it. He played in the Arena leagues.

He's versatile, but let's not get out of hand. He'll play in the slot, at the line as a TE, and as a blocking FB. But anything beyond that is untested waters.

No one is getting out of hand except for maybe yourself. You seem to be grossly extrapolating what people say into this big push of people thinking that Mills is going to be a Running back and that isn't what is happening at all. All I said is that his quickness and agility numbers are BETTER than most of the running backs who have come out the past 2 years. I also said that if he showed the instincts for it, they might use him there. Its speculation based on a huge unknown. Nothing more. Nothing less. You seem to be taking it as something more than that for some strange reason.

Right. The only things we have to go off so far are his performances in the preseason (highlighted above) and the most recent minicamp. And from the reports from minicamp, he was running wild catching balls, not running with them.

Considering how limited the reporting was from mini-camp, we don't know that he didn't line up in the backfield and take a draw or two. But, again, you are the one making a mountian out of a mole hill of speculation.

 

[pats1]

And no one said otherwise in this thread. That is why I put the big IF there. So why is it that you insist on beating a dead horse?

It was part of what I copied from the previous thread, but I'd argue it's still relevant now.

Thanks for the correction. I hadn't realized that Furrey had started as a WR. BTW, do you know what Furrey did between 2000 and 2003? Furrey's draft year was 2000. OH.. found it. He played in the Arena leagues.

No one is getting out of hand except for maybe yourself. You seem to be grossly extrapolating what people say into this big push of people thinking that Mills is going to be a Running back and that isn't what is happening at all. All I said is that his quickness and agility numbers are BETTER than most of the running backs who have come out the past 2 years. I also said that if he showed the instincts for it, they might use him there. Its speculation based on a huge unknown. Nothing more. Nothing less. You seem to be taking it as something more than that for some strange reason.

I think the problem has been people keep seeing Mills listed as a "HB" and keep thinking he's a halfback, which he isn't in any way, shape, or form. In the handful of Mills threads we've had over the past months, I have seen a bunch of discussion about him as a blocking FB, or him potentially acting as the bruising FB. In my opinion, not nearly enough is being made of his pass-catching skills out of the slot and at TE, which is far and away and strength and his background from college.

Considering how limited the reporting was from mini-camp, we don't know that he didn't line up in the backfield and take a draw or two. But, again, you are the one making a mountian out of a mole hill of speculation.

To me, suggesting that Mills can replace Dillon is like suggesting Adalius Thomas can replace Samuel. Sure, Thomas has shown he has the athletic ability to play some CB, but there's no way in hell he's going to be doing it any more than once in a blue moon.

The key point?

With Moss, Stallworth, Welker, Watson, Thomas, Mills, and Brady, I'm very excited about the pass-catching potential of this team.

With Maroney, Morris, Faulk, and Evans, I'm enthusiastic about the running ability of this team.

 

[patpatriot]

Boy I'll be glad when training camp starts so that what are normally polite people can get out of "let's pick a fight where none exists" mode. No football is a terrible thing folks.

 

[DaBruinz]

It was part of what I copied from the previous thread, but I'd argue it's still relevant now.

Its not relevant because you haven't said whether poster Mack Herron was referring to HB or H-back with his post. And, honestly, since NO ONE mentioned it in this thread, it was irrelevant.

I think the problem has been people keep seeing Mills listed as a "HB" and keep thinking he's a halfback, which he isn't in any way, shape, or form. In the handful of Mills threads we've had over the past months, I have seen a bunch of discussion about him as a blocking FB, or him potentially acting as the bruising FB. In my opinion, not nearly enough is being made of his pass-catching skills out of the slot and at TE, which is far and away and strength and his background from college.

I don't care what you have seen in other threads. They are irrelevant. We are discussing what has been said in THIS thread. Of which, no one has said that Mills would be a FB in the mold of Sam Cunningham or even Sam Gash for that matter.

Everyone has talked tremendoulsy about his pass catching ability.

To me, suggesting that Mills can replace Dillon is like suggesting Adalius Thomas can replace Samuel. Sure, Thomas has shown he has the athletic ability to play some CB, but there's no way in hell he's going to be doing it any more than once in a blue moon.

Except that NO ONE has suggested that Mills can replace Dillon IN THIS THREAD. Previous threads don't mean a thing to the discussion people were having in this thread.

I would think that you, as a moderator, would understand the difference and the need for not clouding the point of a thread with talk that isn't applicable.

The key point?

With Moss, Stallworth, Welker, Watson, Thomas, Mills, and Brady, I'm very excited about the pass-catching potential of this team.

With Maroney, Morris, Faulk, and Evans, I'm enthusiastic about the running ability of this team.

I am enthused about the potential of the running game IF Faulk can stay healthy. Unfortunately, he hasn't been able to stay healthy in the recent seasons. Maroney should be able to carry the load with Morris, but if he gets dinged up again, then the Pats will be looking at Morris to carry the workload.

 

[spacecrime]

Has Mills's size changed since he was drafted?

How can you say his size will prevent him from making the team when the Pats drafted him knowing his size?

And I don't see what is wrong with his size as a pass-catching FB anyway. He is a bit bigger than Pass or Centers, and catches better than Pass ever did.

Centers had quite a career for a 225-230 pound guy who rarely ran the ball.

He is versatile like Klecko. He has no definable NFL position.

I think versatility is great, but not in place of utility, that is being able to play one position first as starter or replacement.

He's essentially a tight end, more size challenged than Klecko at NT.

He's the size of a medium-big back, say Corey Dillon-He's obviously not that.

His best shot is pass catching fullback-unproven runner, blocker.

Not trying to put him down and I've hardly seen him, but this is his challenge.

The pats don't have time to try to find a spot for someone, you need to force yourself into the lineup.

 

[Brady'sButtBoy]

I agree that Mills will have shot to make this team on STs and contribute in many other ways, but I have a much different view of Patrick Pass than you do. Pass at 235 was not a devastating "lead" blocker, but he was a very good open field blocker which helped him on STs and was a tool BB used in the running game. There was a report on Pass where they talked about how he had initially been considered for a conversion to WR, I don't recall him dropping too many passes when he was used in the passing game. His running during the 2005 game was decent, much better than I expected.

I was disappointed that Mills was drafted over Mike Hass in 2006, but after seeing him in Preseason I see why the Pats chose him, he's a similar player to Hass, but heavier and more versatile. We'll see what he can do after a year to learn the offense and develop under Woicik and Nash (and now Davis), not to mention Fears, Mangurian, Scarnecchia, and Seeley.

Actually, Box o' Rox, I think we're closer on Pass than it may seem. I agree Pass seemed to be an efficient blocker/penetrator on kicking teams. Pass just never was very involved with the passing game regardless of his ability which, an impartial observer would have to admit, isn't in the same realm as Mills when it comes to the complete pass catching game.

Pass is an A Number One example of a high effort dude willing to commit his full energy to any part of the game. I like Pass, and if he could wake up tomorrow as an ILB he'd have a spot on this team for '07.

 

[pats1]

Its not relevant because you haven't said whether poster Mack Herron was referring to HB or H-back with his post. And, honestly, since NO ONE mentioned it in this thread, it was irrelevant.

I don't care what you have seen in other threads. They are irrelevant. We are discussing what has been said in THIS thread. Of which, no one has said that Mills would be a FB in the mold of Sam Cunningham or even Sam Gash for that matter.

Everyone has talked tremendoulsy about his pass catching ability.

Except that NO ONE has suggested that Mills can replace Dillon IN THIS THREAD. Previous threads don't mean a thing to the discussion people were having in this thread.

I would think that you, as a moderator, would understand the difference and the need for not clouding the point of a thread with talk that isn't applicable.

Honestly, DaBruinz, what are you trying to accomplish here? I've completely lost track of what we were "arguing" about.

 

[RayClay]

The guy can catch the ball like nobody's business. They'll find a spot for him.

I believe that's true.

So can our three tight ends, 27 or so receivers and Sammy Morris and Faulk out of the backfield.

You can only play 11 at a time.

 

[RayClay]

Nobody's business--except Wes Welker's and Dave Thomas'.

BTW: anyone else surprised to see it actually say what was/might have been wrong with Mills (a hip injury)?

I'm hip. How 'bout you.

 

[RayClay]

Mills (6'1" 235-240) is somewhat between Larry Centers (6' 225) and Chris Cooley (6'3" 250) in size. He is big enough to play FB and was rated the top FB prospect in his class. He is big enough to block most of these lightweight cover 2 LBs. He has above average TE and FB speed (4.64) certainly fast enough to to get by most LBs and big enough to overpower most safeties. His good 3 cone (6.82) indicates good athleticism and route running ability as well. Add in his potential as a coverage ST player and I think that he has a good shot.

It's an interesting argument, would you want to have an extra LB like Woods or an extra FB/ TE like Mills on your gameday roster? You could argue that they don't need him at TE as they would have 3 already on the gameday roster but Evans is the only FB so if he got hurt, there goes your 2 back sets or you are back to using people like Seymour as your backup FB. It might be interesting to try him in combination with Evans as a Super-heavyweight goal line 2 back set. Another interesting red zone combo is Morris and Mills. Both are excellent receivers; which one do you cover?

2007 Combine results for TEs

Average 6-4 1/2 255 4.83 40yds 7.17 3cone

2007 Combine results for FBs

Average 5-11 3/4 241 4.75 40 yds 7.15 3cone

He is big enough to play FB and was rated the top FB prospect in his class

Did he ever play Full Back in College?

I believe he was almost exclusively a tight end. How could he be projected, expected and all the rest??

 

[RayClay]

Patrick Pass was hardly a devastating blocker, that's why Seymour, Klecko, etc., got some time in the backfield. Pass wasn't an outstanding pass catcher or runner either but he stayed on the team for years playing in the kicking game. Mills has much more raw talent than Pass and threatens a much bigger play due to his skills catching the ball then running with it - he gave LB's fits in coverage in college and even Kyle Brady noted how well Mills can move at the passing camp.

So, it would seem the only way Mills doesn't make the team is that he stinks on special teams - and that seems unlikely since Mills apparently is a high effort/do-anything-asked type of player. Mills would fill Pass's spot more than he'd be counted as a tight end.

Pass was adequate, but not outstanding as a blocker, receiver and a runner.

He also returned kicks and played special teams.

Mills is an excellent receiver, (we project), runner?, blocker?, does he offer more on s teams than Pass?

 

[RayClay]

Yes he does. H-Back. and that IS a definable position.



Klekco was 2 inches shorter and about 50 lbs lighter than Wilfork. Mills is 2 inches shorter and 10 lbs lighter Thomas and 2 inches shorter and 15 lbs lighter than Watson. (based on their COMBINE numbers). How is he more size challenged than Klecko?



The Pats know where they want Mills. And they are developing him for that spot. I think that you put too much into Mills size (being 2 inches shorter than either Watson or Thomas). While Mills is an unproven runner, that is something they can develop. The blocking is also something they can develop. The pass-catching is something we already know he is very good at from his college days.

Mills is unproven. Just like every other rookie who walks through that door. Mills showed a LOT of skill last year in TC before his injury. I wouldn't be surprised to see Mills make an impact on STs and as the H-Back in the Chris Cooley mode....BTW, how many runs did Chris Cooley make last year?

How often do we use an H-Back now? Wasn't that the province of Daniel graham, a devastating blocker?

 

[RayClay]

See, this is where I don't necessarily agree. We don't know what Mills has been working on, but I can almost guarantee is been his blocking. If Mills has to take on Shawn Merriman ALONE, then the O-line has already failed and, you're right, it WILL be a long day. Mills in the backfield will be to pick up the blitzer who makes it through. That is typically your 260 lb LBs or your 190-220 lb DBs. I believe that Mills can handle those pretty easily with the proper technique.

The only issue with having Mills in the backfield is that it limits you to passing plays until the Pats know whether he has the instincts to run the ball. He definitely has the quickness and agility to run the ball like a RB, when you look at his 20 yard shuttle (4.06) and 3 cone numbers (6.82).

So he's a proven blocker and running back now. That's good to know.

I guess Sammy Morris and Heath Evans are history.

 

[RayClay]

Has Mills's size changed since he was drafted?

How can you say his size will prevent him from making the team when the Pats drafted him knowing his size?

And I don't see what is wrong with his size as a pass-catching FB anyway. He is a bit bigger than Pass or Centers, and catches better than Pass ever did.

Centers had quite a career for a 225-230 pound guy who rarely ran the ball.

His size is perfect for a pass catching fullback. His position has been TE, however and he is very small for an NFL TE.

If he can be an adequate blocker and run at all, he can play FB.

Centers could run just fine when the opportunity was there. 2188 yards career. Better than Patriots Hall of Fame nominee Burton.

 

[spacecrime]

Did he ever play Full Back in College?

Who? Pass or Mills? Actually, neither one did. But Pass played FB for the Pats for years, and Mills will probably do so for years.