Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsWSB47, Jun 8, 2012.
The "Bush Hating Anti War Crowd" must have changed their minds, they must now support War, they want to give Obama another term to keep these wars going.
How quickly people change, remember The War Protesters, they just Vanished.
The war protestors are there, head down to Bath Iron Works they are there daily, but the press does not care..
They were in Chicago two weeks ago, but they were confused with the anarchists..
Without regard for the efforts to politicize this it is too bad, read somewhere that there are more soldiers who died by suicide than were killed by enemy fire..
This is the stuff that Presidents need to think about, before they go to war..
This are very sad events..
people have been standing in front of BIW for 40 years.....
what I want to know is if red's is still there in wiscasset
Red's is still there............
That's not what this thread is about.
Why hijack a thread about a serious topic?
It is -- and it's a topic many people seem to want to ignore (as evidenced by the first response in this thread)
I'm curious whether screening has become more permissive due to our demand for troops, and whether that might have anything to do with it.
Regardless, it's clear that more attention need to be paid to the issue our troops are dealing with, both active-duty and veterans.
The troops have been at war for 10 years, that is a very long time for guys to be under that sort of stress. The military is smaller (relative to WW2 Korea and so on) so guys have had to do many more tours in combat zones.
They need to do more to support these guys, the problem can be that they are the sort of people who will admit weakness (almost like J Seau).
This is something to be very concerned about.
If Obama had ended the wars and brought the troops home as many of his groupies expected him to do after he was elected many of these suicides would still be alive.
Yes this is a very Sad affair, very sad, I'm very surprised the Media doesn't have more to say about it, we are still killing and our troops are still dying, nothing has changed, only the Anti War Crowd has changed and of course Our Rotten American Biased Media, this isn't the same Peace Loving Anti War Media we had when The Chimp was around, is it?
This thread isn't about the media or war protestors.
Mods, perhaps you should moderate and keep the hijacker from his usual crap in this thread.
(Feel free to delete this post if you actually clean this thread up)
One of the things we have not done well as a society is look at the "legacy" costs of war, grew up with a lot of really messed up WW II vets... recently buried one who was involved in the liberation of Auschwitz. There is a lot that he could not talk about..
My fa in law, had horrific experiences in Korea.. and it haunted him until his death..
Lost a lot of friends in Viet Nam, and bent elbows with a few when they came back.. a lot have serious ghosts from that experience. A lot of these guys died younger than they should have...
Now this, wonder if suicides were always there or if this is a new phenomenon.. better reporting?? Or just a result of these endless wars and failiing safety nets.
The thread is about Military Suicides, if we were not over in that godforsaken rotten part of the world fighting a war we will never win I don't think these young people would be killing themselves.
We can fight the war on terror right here at home using all the power we have to "keep the terrorists out" TO HELL WITH THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS GOD DAMN THEIR CIVIL LIBERTIES use every single bit of the anti terrorist resources we have to keep the dirty filthy killers out of our country, use the troops to keep our Borders our Airports and our Sea Ports free of the Savage Dogs that want to kill you and all of your children, Profile Them, Torture Them and Wiretap Them, never ever allow another 9/11 to happen.
Stop The Wars
Close Gitmo (send them back to ride their donkeys)
Thats What they wanted Bush to do.
Yes, it is, and you want to talk about everything else, because of your warped, partisan point of view.
So as the OP originally wrote:
Active-duty military suicides surge
Friday June 8, 2012
WASHINGTON -- Suicides are surging among Americaâ€™s troops, averaging nearly one a day this year -- the fastest pace in the nationâ€™s decade of war.
The 154 suicides for active-duty troops in the first 155 days of the year far outdistance the U.S. forces killed in action in Afghanistan -- about 50 percent more -- according to Pentagon statistics obtained by The Associated Press.
The numbers reflect a military burdened with wartime demands from Iraq and Afghanistan that have taken a greater toll than foreseen a decade ago. The military also is struggling with increased sexual assaults, alcohol abuse, domestic violence and other misbehavior.
Because suicides had leveled off in 2010 and 2011, this yearâ€™s upswing has caught some officials by surprise.
Active-duty military suicides surge - Berkshire Eagle Online "
Demand was high until around 2008, when the wars were quieting down and the economy hit the skids. Now, it seems everyone wants in. Demand is down and supply is up. My recruiter told me that they met their 2011 recruiting goal in May (the first time since the Civil War and this is in New York, a traditionally very tough state to recruit). When I went through MEPS, it was standing room only, and the military is being very selective.
Anyway, the problem is over-extension. We're fighting two wars and there are a lot of our soldiers and Marines who are doing multiple tours. The word I hear a lot is "stress". There are a lot of stressors in the military, and for most it only gets worse after they get their DD 214s.
I choose that one. I read today that there's 1 suicide per day in our military:
Pentagon reports 154 suicides in first 155 days of 2012 - US news - msnbc.com
That doesn't sound like any past wars to me anyway.
There are significant differences IMO, going back to WW1 troops would have been in combat for , 1 year before the war ended, in WW2 3 years at most (Guadalcanal to Okinawa), Korea maybe 24 months. In these wars the action could be more intense but not as many tours of time at the front.
Viet Nam was different there was a more extended time of combat (with varying degrees of US combat involvement. However the military had a lot of conscripts who were in service for 2-4 years and didn't do multiple tours. However there were career military who were exposed to multiple tours.
In the last 10 years this is an all volunteer force with a far greater % of career military. So a far greater % of soldiers have had to do multiple tours, in a high stress area where often it is hard to know the innocents from the enemy and the threat of roadside bombs and attacks where one is waiting to be hit rather than proactively going after the enemy.
This force has also had to abide to rules of engagement that no other army in history has had to deal with, these rules put our troops in harms way to avoid as much as possible harm to innocent civilians.
Good assessment pf. Plus the major role prescription drugs are playing but mostly the fact the American public is so removed from these present-day wars, or it seems like that to me anyway- and for that I fault MSM and "journalists" in general. As long as people have no real and true idea of what's going on over there and what our soldiers are going through, none of it will end.
I remember seeing some footage from Vietnam, footage that had been televised into every American home every night on the 6:00 news and it was horrifying. No wonder the country became galvanized against that war-seeing those boys ripped apart, bleeding, and dying, nevermind seeing it on your evening news-made people stand up and say "enough". We don't see any of that now, in fact we'll probably never see it until 2121. If people don't start waking up to what's happening to our military, and caring about what's happening to our military- we're lost as a society.
Do you remember the naked Vitenamese girl running down the street right after she was Napalmed??? That was a galvanizing picture..
When you break it down amongst services the numbers are interesting.. why would the Navy and Air Force have more suicides than the Marines???
Gotta wonder about prescription drug use and things like steroids, are they part of this equation???
The Marine Corps is much smaller than the number of people in the USAF and Navy. If there was a chart with the number of suicides/thousand or something is would give a better relative number.
Don't know if they test for steroids. I know nothing about other drugs that are prescribed.
Interesting contradiction here:
Military Entrance Processing Questions Answered | Military.com
For Army troops, prescription drugs may add to fog of war - Los Angeles Times
So you can't enlist if are currently taking, or have taken within the last year, an antidepressant drug.
But, once you are enlisted, they will prescribe them for you.
One of the more bizarre side effects of most of the newer antidepressant is suicide - especially in young people....and most people enlisting in the military are young....and yet they seem to prescribe them quite freely.
Contributing factor? Someone would have to do a study of those servicemen/women who've committed or attempted suicide and find out if they were taking them or not - which I can't believe someone's not already done.
Unless they have and they're just not releasing the study results.
I would think they wouldn't want people with current 'problems' to be enlisting and going under the stres of things like basic training (don't know if basic training has changed a lot since I went through it 40 years ago). They put you into stressful situations as part of the process.
I would think if Military docs put you on these drugs for PTSD, they view that differently.
I have heard that don't know enough to comment, don't know anyone using those drugs. IMO drugs are way over prescribed, especially things like Ritilin for little boys.
I would guess (don't know) that DoD tracks this, they would release the info to avoid contraversy. IOW if the suicides were people who weren't prescribed meds (macho guys not seeking hellp?) they would be roasted for not giving these folks meds, and if there is a link to meds being prescribed, they may have made the caculation that it is still better than not using meds, and don't want to deal with the PR backlash.
It is a sad tragic situation I hope the people at DoD are working to adress this situation to help people with emotional problems.
I understand what you're saying - and, to a small extent, I agree with it, but the thing is - you aren't disqualified so much because you are taking any certain medication but because you suffer from the disease the medication treats.......and the disease is the same before or after enlistment and the "dangers" of serving while suffering the disease would be the same.
Really? That's surprising. I'd say that close to half of the people I know are either currently taking or have taken antidepressants or anti-anxiety drugs in the past. That could be because I am a middle aged woman, though. Fully 23% of American women between 40 and 60 are prescribed anti-depressants. 1 in 10 Americans are.
When you add in the anti-anxiety drugs like Xanax and Ativan and Valium and the hyperactivity drugs like Ritilin, the number rises to 1 in 5.
Astounding increase in antidepressant use by Americans - Harvard Health Publications
1 in 5 of adults on behavioral meds
But they usually see quite a bit of combat, compared to the AF or Navy in these endless wars.....
Wonder if drugs, prescription and illegal, are an issue across the board..
I bet they are and I would also throw in all the social media as a part cause. Knowing what your wife or girl is up to while you are defending your country is easy to do.
Hey what's up?, way to much reasonable discussion going on here
Impressive! Likes to all. :rocker:
Well, what the meds do is prove that the condition exists, at least according to medical professionals. The problem is the undiagnosed illnesses. Without a diagnosis (and resultant prescription), there really isn't any way the military can disqualify someone, except to hope that they disqualify themselves during the myriad Q&A phases during processing. They do try to encourage people to disqualify themselves. The whole point of MEPS is to disqualify those who are unfit. Even with that, people slip through the cracks.
The chart indicates that there are high incidence of suicides amongst navy and air force personnel, folks who you do not associate with experienceing trauma on the front lines.....
Marines, even though there are less, usually see quite a bit of the horrors of war, but they have significantly less...
Perhaps it is about social media access, but what are the other variables???
Wonder if this is a traditional phenomenon, that has never been tracked so carefully before.. maybe it has always been there. After WWII and Korea there was a lot of craziness and how many times do we read about the Viet Nam Vet who barricades himself in his house while holding off police or doing some other less sane activity???
Active Duty Numbers:
USMC Strength: 200,000
So, it would reason, all things being equal that the Marines would have half the number of suicides. Until 2010, Marine numbers were about the same, and their relative and absolute decline coincides with the end of operations in Iraq.
What's shocking the the extremely high raw number and proportion of Army suicides. Of course, the Army has about seven times the number of personnel on the ground in Afghanistan that the USMC does.
Well, it is possible, but the Viet Nam war introduced problems and situations that US soldiers had rarely, if ever, seen before. The French experienced it in Indochina and Algeria, and it had a profound effect on their military culture. The fact is that our military was and still is oriented toward 3GW, and the pressures of 4GW are still not well documented or understood.
Stop the wars, like Cindy Sheehan wanted to...........
Why the comparative high rate in the Air Force and Navy?? Most of whom do not have combat roles there.. my issue has to do with, are there other variables???
The raw data is useless without sometype of comparative analysis of rates of those who saw combat vs. how many committed suicide. Even the Army has a lot of troops who do not actually "see" combat.
Not sure we have ever monitored the long term effects(suicide) of war on troops after deployment, is this situation unique to Iraq/Afghanistan or has it been occuring all along???..
If it is unique to these never ending wars, why??? What are the new variables and can they be controlled??
This is comparing apples to grapefruit, but an interesting tid bit.. sometimes or probably often time the news chooses not to take a longitudinal view of occurances, and only deal with the current crisis..
Is war the precursor of existing mental health issues, is depression exascerbated?? Personally have a couple of friends from Viet Nam who seemed "normal" prior to deployment, now they are different people.. one of which stands on the corner chasing butterfiles in piss stained pants. This is anecdotal, but there are a lot of Viet Nam guys who carry a lot of emotinoal baggage.
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