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Mike Florio of Pro Football Talk on today's Borges column

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Pats67, Jul 23, 2006.

  1. Pats67

    Pats67 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    After this beatdown, Borges should don a foam collar, cane and beret. His latest rabbit punch wasn't on the Globe website more than a few hours before Florio took it apart.

     
  2. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Florio ONE Borges minus ten

    A good one!! Borges is an idiot!!! And with Upshaw there are two together...I am sure they are pals from Borges's Oakland days..like his thug buddies Atkinson and Tatum.
     
  3. Brady'sButtBoy

    Brady'sButtBoy 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    #12 Jersey

    A stunning, but sadly typical, lack of perspective by Borges. Someday, he just has to go away, right? Tell me I'm right...PLEASE!
     
  4. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

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    Curtis Enis, and a few others are excellent examples of what happens when you trade a short term contract for a long one. The next payday isn't going to come as soon as you sometimes think. Sure, Branch gets stiffed in the whole process, but make NO MISTAKE. This is the agents' fault. If they agreed to have teams pay VETERANS who have PRODUCED instead of ROOKIES who have done squat, then there wouldn't be any problem whatsoever. It's the agents who insist the top of the draft entitles you to a multi-million dollar payday. I would be more than happy if they chucked the whole draft payout system and just paid players for their performance. It's a crock that a guy like Rodney Harrison can't earn the $$$ over his lifetime that, say, Sean Taylor will, all because Rodney wasn't drafted hihly. A crock, and if Chayut wants to change the system, he should start there.
     
  5. PlattsFan

    PlattsFan On the Game Day Roster

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    Borges is a tool. He's always been pretty anti-Pats since Belichick came on board, but he's been positively pathological since Bledsoe lost out on his job when he came back from injury.

    That said, this is pretty ridiculous:
    Both of those options are terrible. Withhold their services? And what, exactly, will they be doing for money in the meantime? Play in Canada? Assume all the risk and play for low money while the owners pull in millions in profits every year on the back of their talent and hard work? Please.

    Anyone who pretends the game isn't rigged in favor of the owners is a fool. It's a monopoly business with powerful political muscle and a fairly weak union. Certain players get a whole bunch of money (like San Mateo's own Tom Brady), but lots of players don't. All the owners get their money, and they don't have to walk with a cane for the rest of their lives.
     
  6. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The money Brady has gotten has been earned. He signed for peanuts as a 6th round draft pick. Then after winning his first Superbowl MVP he signed an extension that still paid him relative peanuts compared to his franchise QB peers who had done squat before or in some cases after signing their big deals. Then after winning his 3rd Superbowl he signed another contract at more than 20% below open market.

    Branch apparently wants to make $7M per season. Brady is making $10. Reggie Wayne makes $6.5M in his new deal on a team where the QB hauls in $14M per. Randy Moss makes $8.5M per on a team that employs jag QB's. If the money is the deciding factor for Deion he probably needs to play for a team with one of those alternate financial models.

    Apparently the only thing standing between Deion Branch getting his in year 5 rather than being abused by the evil entity known as the NEP, who reached for him in the 2002 draft and then allowed him to compete in a privately funded state of the art stadium on a team that won back to back Superbowls which are the most impressive items on his individual resume, is his own greed. He wants to be overpaid. Boo-effin-hoo.

    Lots of players also get to be instant millionaires as Deion did as a downtrodden round 2 draft pick, and never do a productive thing in the NFL in their lives. They still get to keep the money, almost 60% of which now goes directly into the players pockets courtesy of their weak union.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2006
  7. pats-blue

    pats-blue Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I don't know what they could do.....maybe get a REAL job like the rest of us? As far as the OWNERS.....hhhmmm they OWN the business! I'd like to see another business model that the employees are guaranteed around 60% of the GROSS revenue. OH wait let me rephrase that since all the concession workers and other pee-ons get paid regular wages like the rest of us and that comes out of the owners end too. Don't want to cut into the pie of the poor exploited MILIIONAIRE players!
     
  8. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    PFT is right, there was a year about 3 years ago, probably the year before Watson when the Browns had none - NONE - of their draft choices signed when training camp opened because they were forcing them all to sign for 6 years - and, of course, later picks didn't get much additional signing bonus.

    Borges - you're a know nothing moron.
     
  9. primetime

    primetime Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #18 Jersey

    Oh man, are you really getting this upset because a bunch of guys making a million dollars a year to play football aren't making five million dollars a year to play football? Guys in Iraq are getting their legs blown off for 50,000 a year, some undrafted scrub gets that to attend a 2 day non-contact minicamp in May.
     
  10. Brady-To-Branch

    Brady-To-Branch Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I remember Kevin Mannix being a tool over Watson.

    The Watson signing is a bad example of trying to prove that the Pats are "exploiting" players.

    Truth was, had the Pats passed on Watson, he would have been taken in the 2nd round making second round money. Watson played in only 2 games and went on IR in his rookie season.

    It's the same MO with Borges. If Branch's agent is throwing out the "my player's being exploited" rhetoric in the media, he's not helping his client's cause.
     
  11. 5 Rings for Brady!!

    5 Rings for Brady!! In the Starting Line-Up

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    BelichickFan:

    The reason that all the new rules limiting the amount of years that rookies can be signed are called 'Patriot Clauses' and not 'Browns Clauses' is because Tom Condon got himself personally involved in the union negotiations as Gene Upshaw's 'advisor'.

    The whole thing is a revenge power play by 'super agent' Condon, because Ben Watson dumped him in order to sign a 6 year deal with the Pats. Ben only held out of camp because Condon refused to sign a 6 year deal on his client's behalf.

    And where did this get Watson? He missed camp and then got injuried. Maybe if he was in camp and knew what the hell he was doing out on the field, he would have been better prepared and might not have hurt his knee at all. We will never know, but it sure is more dangerous just to toss somebody out on the field with no training.
     
  12. PlattsFan

    PlattsFan On the Game Day Roster

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    Soldiers should make more, teachers should make more ... there are a lot of people who probably should make more than football players. But we live in a capitalist society, where people are paid (theoretically) based on their ability to create wealth. Football players create A LOT of wealth for people. So they get paid a lot. The question is not whether people in football should make a lot of money; they will as long as we buy tickets, watch the games, buy jerseys, etc. The question is who will make that money, the players or the owners.
    So just because the owners made a bunch of money in another business (or inherited it), they are more important to the business than the guys who've actually dedicated their lives to the game? I'd like to see another business model where the employees are also the entire product and are also the R&D division and are also the chief spokespeople for the business, all while they hold no rights to negotiate in an open market for their services when they enter the work-force. I suppose pimps and whores operate like that, but I don't think that's a great business model to compare anything to.
    No doubt. I applaud every dollar that goes to Tom Brady. He's worth every penny and probably more. He's the epitome of what a football player should be, from a coach's standpoint (he's a great football player), from a fan's perspective (he's an entertaining and exciting football player), and, especially, from an owner's perspective (he's a wonderful ambassador for the game).

    In fact, I celebrate all large contracts for football players. As I said above, they are more than employees; they are the entire business. To me, the ones I think deserve the bulk of the money in the game starts with players, goes next to coaches, goes through some other operational people (scouts, etc), and the owners are somewhere near the bottom. They contribute much less to the game compared to the owner of a traditional business.

    As for Deion's situation, I actually hold no particular position on it. The way the cap is structured, and my interest in the Patriots having a winning team, probably leans me against his position. But, that doesn't mean that in a broad sense I don't think he and the rest of the players should get more of the money in the game. And it certainly doesn't change my mind that the owners have the whole structure set up very well for themselves.

    It just bugs me when writers whose entire job is based on the fact that people find the players exciting turn around and bash those players' salary requests.
     
  13. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    Sorry, but the PLAYERS are not the R&D division and they certainly are NOT the entire product nor are they the chief spokespeople for the entire business. Also, the business they are in has at least 2 other competitors that they could go to.

    It seems to me that you have quite a few facts misconstrued.

    Owners contribute much less to the game compared to the owner of a traditional business? I would be willing to bet that Bob Kraft would disagree with you. And the statement shows how you really don't understand the situation that well.

    It bugs me when "fans" like yourself can't put salary demands of the players into perspective. Deion Branch is no where near an ELITE (read top 15) WR. There are some pretty glaring holes in his game with the biggest being his durability and the second, as MoLewisRocks pointed out, Deion's seeming inability to fight off a double-team. Add to that, Deion has not had a 1000 yard season and has only had 1 season out of 4 where he's been healthy for the entire season. I'm sorry, but that is NOT my definition of an ELITE WR. Deion should count himself LUCKY that the Patriots offered him a contract that would average even $5.6 million.
     
  14. PlattsFan

    PlattsFan On the Game Day Roster

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    What competitors? I genuinely don't know what you mean there ... the CFL? There is no real competitor to the NFL. I don't think that's a controversial statement.

    And if the players aren't the product, what is? The jerseys? The cheerleaders? I don't tune in to football games to watch anything else. I watch the players perform on the field. I suppose you could say that coaches are part of the product, but that's about it.
    You have this habit of ending your assertions with some blanket statement denigrating me without really saying why. Which is OK, I guess, but just saying I don't understand the situation without explaining your viewpoint isn't very persuasive. Just saying "you are wrong. And because you are wrong, it shows that you don't understand" doesn't convince me at all.

    How can anyone look at football players as employees along the lines of, say, line workers in a factory? Or truck drivers? No offense to either of those jobs, but players are most definitely the driving force in the NFL. If you disagree, tell me why, don't just say, "you're wrong. So there."

    I tune in to the NFL because the players are amazing athletes who put on an incredible show every week.

    Perhaps you could read over my post again and pay special attention to the part where I say that, in the context of the way the NFL is set up right now, I'd probably lean against Deion's contract requests. Mostly because of the second factor you mention there. When teams really concentrate on taking him away, they can take him away. So, no, I don't think he's worth top dollar in a salary cap.

    My original point was just that it's wrong to assert that teams don't have the lion's share of the leverage in the NFL. It has nothing to do with Deion's game or his demands. Which I stated clearly already.
     
  15. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The little engine that drives the NFL is gambling, not admiration of talent. That is what generates the broadbased interest in the game that leads TV networks to offer billions for broadcast rights to NFL games. All of which owners long ago agreed would go to fund a salary cap to enable them to continue fielding and growing their product - which is the game people most love to bet on. Baseball is different, it's interest born and limited by love of the game. And without a cap it fields whole teams with payrolls less than the signing bonuses lavished on the NFL #1 draft pick alone annually. Most of whom now hail from the Carribbean and SA. Basketball teams employ fewer than 15-20 players per season and only a select few college or recently HS players make an NBA roster as rookies each year. Hockey - well why even bother discussing it.

    NFL owners built this league at no small cost and the players today are reaping 60% of the rewards. Some are able to get taxpayers to underwrite a portion of their expenses related to stadiums, others build and operate those privately and should expect to reap the rewards for that investment as they would in any other industry. If not for NFL ownership's forsight and determination spanning the last 50+ years professional football players would be beating each other senseless on Sunday's at the local mud hole for an extra couple of hundred a week over and above their salaries from the loading dock. There is a similar dynamic involved in all professional sports, their competition along with every other facet of the entertainment industry, although NFL ownership has leveraged it better than any other league. Hense it's popularity and ability to field 32 $100M+ payroll teams comprised of upwards of 80+ players per season each of whom makes at least a quarter of a million dollars a year right out of college.
     
  16. PlattsFan

    PlattsFan On the Game Day Roster

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    MoLewisRocks ...

    You make a good argument. I do give the NFL owners a lot more credit than I do baseball owners (who seem to relish doing damage to their product). The NFL has been a very savvy organization, and they've made few major mistakes.

    I just disagree that those good decisions have been the main factor in the growth of the league. It's an excellent televised sport, and it grew as the popularity of TV sports grew. I agree that gambling has had a larger impact on football than on any other sport, but I disagree that it's the driving force in its popularity ... as I said, I think it's TV. Roone Arledge was at least as important as any owner, probably.

    And now, with the fragmentation of the TV viewing audience, especially in terms of time with the growth of TiVo, football is even more important as a product for networks. It's event television, with a few major "episodes" that need to be seen live (or close to it). This kind of predictable audience is really important these days for networks, which is keeping football at the forefront of sports in terms of national licensing money.

    To me, all of that depends on the excitement of the product on the field, which is the players.
     
  17. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    The FACT is that there are 2 other professional football leagues that players could go to if they wanted. Also, the last I looked, most of these players are college graduates. They don't HAVE to play football.

    You seem to have a habit of misquoting me. You've done it twice now. The entire PRODUCT is the NFL GAMES. That includes the coaches and yes, even the cheerleaders. The players do make up a majority of the product, but not the ENTIRE product as you insinuated in your initial post. Also, the Jerseys are part of the product.

    First off, all I have done is blow huge holes in YOUR assertions by using FACT. If you consider that denigrating, well, that is your problem. The only assertion I have made is to say that you truly don't understand the situation you are commenting on. And, so far, you haven't proven that you understand it.

    You didn't say that the players were the driving force previously. Your assertion was that they were the product, the R&D division, and basically the be all end all of the NFL and that the Owners were just along for the ride. Sorry, but Tom Brady isn't the Spokesman for the Patriots. That would either be Bob Kraft or Bill Belichick.

    I did tell you WHY I disagreed with you. Its because your statements are false and incomplete.

    Yes, the players are amazing atheletes. However, without the coaches, the Players wouldn't be able to perform in a cohesive unit. Without the owners, the Players wouldn't have a place to play and they wouldn't be making the money they are making.

    See, I do understand that the players need the owners just as much as the owners need the players. That is the concept you haven't shown you understand.


    I think you need to re-read MY comments again. No where did I comment on whether you were leaning for or against Deion's contract request. I commented on the fact that you don't seem to have a valid perspective on the situation when you make comments like :" It just bugs me when writers whose entire job is based on the fact that people find the players exciting turn around and bash those players' salary requests." It sure comes across as you slamming the people on here who are commenting on Deion's contract demands. You couldn't have been commenting on Borges since he wasn't bashing Branch for his salary request. Borges was actually bashing the Patriots.

    Well, I didn't comment on your original post. I commented on a follow-up post where you made, what I believe to be, erroneous statements regarding the structure of the NFL.

    BTW, since you seem to think that the players are involved in the R&D of the game, could you please explain that? I'm sure everyone here would be interested in how the players are the drivign force between the play development, strength & conditioning, and even facility layout.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2006
  18. Clonamery

    Clonamery PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Socialist-Commie-pinko....(not that there's anything wrong with that)

    But seriously, which players are exciting in your opinion? Which teams are the most exciting in your opinion?

    I really hate it when people try and give away someone else's money. If you think NFL players aren't getting an equitable portion of the profit pie, you could always donate a few of your hard-earned samoleans to Ty Law who's always had a hard time feeding his family.......
     
  19. PlattsFan

    PlattsFan On the Game Day Roster

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    The other two professional football leagues are in no way competition for the NFL. The level of salaries, exposure, and everything else are far different. There's just no comparison and bringing them up as valid alternatives for a player just reinforces my point that the teams hold most of the cards when it comes to the players.

    I'm trying not to be as pissy and argumentative back to you as you are to me, but ... how could I possibly misquote you? I cut-n-paste your quotes directly from your posts. As Inigo Montoya once said ... I don't think that word means what you think it means.

    Again, you're making my point for me. Yes, the cheerleaders are part of the games, as are the jerseys. But none of that matters much to the popularity of the game. The players are what people pay to see, not that other stuff.

    Um, no, you didn't blow any sort of holes using any sort of facts. Again, that word doesn't seem to mean what you think it means. Here's a fact: the Patriots won the Super Bowl in 2002 against the St. Louis Rams. Here's an opinion: the CFL is "competition" for the NFL. Or the players aren't the chief spokespeople for the teams. I think they are (Tom Brady is the face of the Patriots far more than whomever the official "spokesperson" actually is). The players have far more to do with how the team is perceived than the actual spokespeople employed by the team. But, you see, what I just said is my "opinion." It's not a fact. If you want to argue my opinion, fine, that's what message boards are for. MoLewisRocks did it very well above, and I enjoyed reading and responding to his post. Yours ... not so much.
    Now here, you make a good point. Coaches are very important in the NFL, far more than in any other sport, and I didn't include that enough in what I said earlier. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that they are almost as much of the product as the players, since the strategy of the game is such a big reason a lot of people watch, especially hard-core fans. So ... I'll go along with your first point (see? I'm very reasonable to actual arguments).

    The second point, I don't agree with much. The owners make a difference, sure. I'm not saying they shouldn't make any money at all. I just think their contribution to the enterprise is far below what the players bring.

    You are completely misreading what I said. How does a statement on "writers whose entire job is based on the fact that people find players exciting" have anything to do with posters here? Do people get paid to comment here? If so, where do I sign up? I wasn't commenting on Borges. I was commenting on Mike Florio and the general tendency of sports writers to act as if players' salary demands are ridiculous.

    Sigh. In the very section you quoted from me, I say, "As for Deion's situation, I actually hold no particular position on it. The way the cap is structured, and my interest in the Patriots having a winning team, probably leans me against his position." I say right there explicitly that I probably lean against giving Deion the money he asks for, but that I hold no particular position on it. I actually don't really get into the stories of what the salary demands of players are, mostly because I find them almost universally tedious because of the very attitude I'm talking about.
    Well, it was hardly the main thrust of what I said, but ... mainly I was talking about strength and conditioning. One of the biggest differences in today's game as opposed to years ago is the size, speed, and athletic ability of the players. And it's not primarily because of the strength work at the pro level. These guys come into the NFL huge, strong, and fast. Players aren't mindless robots doing weight reps and running drills designed by others. They are active participants, trying new theories, going to top performance institutes, weighing the relative advantages of different workout regimes.

    Play development is from the coaches, whom I mentioned above are actually a part of the product as well ... facility layout? Yeah, that's a big factor in the growth of the NFL.

    Look, your tone doesn't give me much faith that you are actually interested in an open give and take of ideas, but here's what I'm saying in a nutshell: My point at the beginning was that to imply, as Mike Florio did, that the teams don't hold the lion's share of the leverage in contract negotiations with players, especially rookies, is wrong. Some people jumped on that, saying, among other things, that most employees don't enjoy the advantages that NFL players do. My reply was to detail that NFL players aren't normal "employees," like the folks working at a WalMart or in a factory, that they are actually employee and product all rolled into one. I never said that owners were useless; they aren't. Just that the ratio of importance of owner/employee is far different in sports than in other jobs, that players are A LOT more important part of the business than in traditional jobs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 29, 2005
  20. PlattsFan

    PlattsFan On the Game Day Roster

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    You got me ... workers of the world, unite! ;)

    Which players ... the list is pretty long. Tom Brady, Tedy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, Deion Branch, Kevin Faulk, Corey Dillon is just a partial list on the Patriots. Mike Vick, LaDainian Tomlinson, Larry Johnson, Curtis Martin used to be ... I could go on and on. Which teams ... the Patriots. That's it. Other teams I'll watch when the players on that team are exciting.

    Your statement is a bit of a straw man. I'm not saying football players are poor. When I donate my money, it's to people that really need it.

    I'm not trying to "give away someone else's money." You have two groups that, collectively, are making a lot of money. Personally, I think the players have a lot more to do with the generation of that money than do the owners and therefore they deserve a lot of it. The money going into football from us, the fans, doesn't inherently belong to the owners. It's not "their" money by right. There's a pool of money that gets distributed among football; I'm just arguing about the distribution of that.
     

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