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Michael "Whale Blubber" Moore shows his stripes (again)

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Fogbuster, Sep 7, 2009.

  1. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    .

    What do you call a man calling for the destruction of capitalism, when he lives and thrives and becomes a mega-millionaire in a capitalist system????

    [size=+4]HYPOCRITE??? Yeah, HYPOCRITE is accurate, very very accurate[/size]


    [size=+3]"Capitalism is evil," says new Michael Moore film[/size]

    By Mike Collett-White

    VENICE (Reuters) - Capitalism is evil. That is the conclusion U.S. documentary maker Michael Moore comes to in his latest movie "Capitalism: A Love Story," which premieres at the Venice film festival Sunday.

    Blending his trademark humor with tragic individual stories, archive footage and publicity stunts, the 55-year-old launches an all out attack on the capitalist system, arguing that it benefits the rich and condemns millions to poverty.

    "Capitalism is an evil, and you cannot regulate evil," the two-hour movie concludes.


    Capitalism is evil, says new Michael Moore film | Lifestyle | Reuters


    Moore's elitist message: "Money is good when people like me have it, but it is terrible for others (who differ from me) to have it." ... :wha:

    Sigh...... elitists...... what do you do with 'em??? Let 'em start their own "socialist utopia" in ..... Africa or Siberia. How 'bout China.

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  2. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A friggin Tub Of Sh!t who makes millions bashing his own country and all the loons keep slobbering over him and making him richer, they despise America but they never leave...............

    Why do people pay good money to watch his demented garbage.............:confused:

    Moore is an Obama Groupie and Moore Hates Capitalism does that mean something?
  3. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Tell you what: I'll donate a dollar of my money for every ten dollars Tubby Michael donates for a worthy cause. He controls at least ten times the amount that I do, so it's fair.


    Whattya say, Blubber Belly, Moore?? Can you man-up on this???

    (Pressy or some other leftie on speaking terms with Donut Man can pass this on, I'm sure.)



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  4. IcyPatriot

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    #87 Jersey


    These people are so full of crap. John Travolta with his green crap all the while he has an airport on his property. But you have to give it up to these people ... they support the left even though they know they will get a tax pooning.
  5. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Yeah, it's like none of them has ever read any history. A hudred years ago they were saying the same thing in Europe: how "corrupt" and "evil" the old order was.... all the bad dukes and duchesses ..... the corrupt Czar and Czarina (of Russia, not Obama's play-mates :rolleyes:).... they said they all wanted a nice, fair, equalized system, without all the 'old-boy' politics, etc. ....... So, who'd they get???? V.I. Lenin, Josef Stalin, Adolph Hitler and Benito Mussolini.

    The draft was REALLY bad that year.


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  6. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    Does giving your money to con man from North Korea count?
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Must you show bigotry against obese people, too, Fog? Tthe way you titled the thread was rude and probably offensive to some people.

    Capitalism is a bad economic system, but it's the best one so far. Let's face it, the reason the west can take the moral highground was because is raped and pillaged Africa, blacks, Native Americans, and others. In the 1900s there were tens of thousands of child prostitutes in New York City and capitalists employed children for as long as 72 hours/week making them into virtual slaves. In the past, we sent out National Guardsmen to shoot striking workers, we allowed capitalists to kill tens of thousands through pollution, dangerous working conditions, and market driven wars (such as the Spanish American War). In other countries, the crimes of capitalism were far worse. King Leopold of Belgium basically made the Belgian Congo into his private company where he murdered 5,000,000 people, and neither his country nor his family ever faced any consquences. In addition, capitalism provides for totally illogical wages -- some here have pointed out that Michael Moore must be worth a lot of money. But, is it logical that someone who does good works should earn vastly less than someone who does bad things? That's how capitalism is. It does not drive an economy with a set of values (except as imposed by limited government regs); it simply creates a form of anarchy where base needs, be it sex, violence, hoarding, gluttony, or whatever are often what generate the most demand and thus the most wealth.

    Nonetheless, as awful as capitalism is, it still semms to be the best system. By appealing to humankind's selfishness, it creates the sort of wealth that allows many people to become teachers, doctors, preachers, artists, scholar, and others who are motivated by the more profound side of humanity.
  8. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Well, Patters, there's always China, Cuba, Zimbabwe, or -- you're favorite, probably -- Iran :rolleyes: , if you don't like the U.S.

    Anyway, the issue isn't that capitalism is "the best"; it's that this fatso -- and yes, he clearly EARNS that title by the way he lets himself go while flaunting his wealth unbelievably even as he decries the system that ALLOWS HIM to earn it!!! -- is being 100% hypocritical. Surely, even you can acknowledge that.

    For the record, I believe in a form of socialism but it sure isn't one where the limousine, caviar and champagne set are telling the rest of us to "go green and take less while paying more taxes" set. Uh-uh. It's where the ones who lead are the ones who lead by EXAMPLE, *not* by "do as I say, not as I do" vacuous celebrity.

    Peace.


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  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I live in this country unlike you, so clearly my affection for this country runs deep.

    I have no idea about Michael Moore's wealth. How does he flaunt it? If we compare the avarice of Moore to that of Moon, at least Moore didn't rip off Japanese widows. I suyspect Moon lives in far more luxury than Moore.

    At any rate, I think you're wrong for insulting people for their weight. Frankly, I think Moon is a pretty strange looking guy, too:

    [​IMG]

    How do you know how Michael Moore lives? From one of those unsourced websites that makes undocumented claims? I'm sure Moore lives well, but I certainly don't think he lives decadently well compared to Wall Street tycoons and others whose only purpose in this world is wealth. At least Moore has something to say, whether you agree with him or not.
  10. PatsFanInVa

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    Blah blah blah.

    The OP's accusation is that Moore says it is bad for others to be rich but not for him to be rich; that is what "hypocrisy" means, indeed.

    A similar example: all the theocrats boinking the church secretary or running off to nail argentinian journalists, and inveighing against the sexual behavior of others.

    I think Michael Moore understands, however, that if capitalism did not exist, then he would no longer be rich. He is rather inveighing against the system that does in fact permit him to be wealthy as well.

    The difference seems to be that Moore acknowledges openly that he makes a ship pot of money. He does not crawl around in the shadows like the theocrats, shouting about others' evil behavior. He says yep I'm rich too. Take down the system, and I'm not rich anymore.

    I don't much care whether the local theocrats manages to convince one another that child molesters, closeted gay "defenders of marriage," and polyamorous champions of monogamous sexual morality are better than a rich guy who thinks capitalism has to go.

    But in terms of the olympics of hypocrisy, one would think one real telling factor for the judges would be whether the behavior somehow invalidates the ideology. In Moore's case the behavior is film making within a capitalist system, which - if he got his way - would simply become film making within a "better" system (I have not seen the movie so I do not know if he believe there is such a better system, or merely points out that the current one is evil.)

    In terms of the straying theocrats, the excuse is always that when the better system comes, nobody will sin (by definition.) However, the task of policing the sexual morality of others always seems to be justified by the principle of "what God wants." Often they call for America to become ruled by "what God wants," cast in terms of sexual morality. All of us are expected to live according to their pronouncements that some sexual behavior is immoral, when they do not in fact live by said pronouncements themselves.

    Michael Moore never has called for all of his followers to leave behind their earthly possessions because we would then all be perfect. That was another guy, who of course you may also call a hypocrite if you like, given the wealth he bequethed to his organizational heirs.

    The theocrats in question do, daily, call for all of us to behave in ways that they themselves refuse to behave.

    That seems much more like hypocrisy to me.

    Oh as to the post's titular charge that Michael Moore is very fat, that is true. I am not certain what it has to do with anything. Moore did not make "Supersize Me."

    PFnV
  11. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Oh, boy, here we go again. I put in the first 50 years of my life in America, but now I've learned how other people around the world live, and it gives me a much deeper appreciation of what is good about America. Can also see more clearly what is bad, and that's mostly got to do with people who haven't a clue about how the rest of the world lives.

    "You suspect" means you have no idea what you are talking about. Does Michael Moore get up at 2:30 A.M.every day to start his day with prayer for others, meditation, and exercise?? Father Moon does. And he's been doing it since he was in his 30s; he's now 90 years old. "Avarice"??? Do you even know what that word means?? Father Moon does NOT "rip off" anyone, Japanese or otherwise. Your "suspicions" of the worst in others before checking into the facts reveal far more about YOU than they do of Father Moon. Father Moon raises considerable funds each year and then spends 95% of those funds on others -- schools, hospitals, universities, education centers all over the world. He bought a bankrupt University of Bridgeport, CT, and saved hundreds of jobs for people who were not even members of his church, and kept educating the thousands of students who were studying there. Learn some facts before you spout; it will enhance your credibility.

    Rev. Sun Myung Moon Official Website


    Don't know what's so "strange" about Rev. Moon's features, except you've used a distorted photo. Here's one that's accurate:

    Universal Peace Television - UPF World View


    One only needs to see Michael Moore in action, doing his drive-by pseudo-journalism to know how he lives. Bad news bear. And not aging well in the process, from all accounts. He never misses a chance to bash America and would do himself a HUGE favor by spending a year or two abroad seeing how others live.


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  12. PatsWSB47

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    Wow, did you mean to hijack the thread or were you just taking fog to the woodshed?

    What you say about hypocritical theocrats is true of course but I think you went a wee too far from the subject of the post which I thought was more about Michael more than a general discussion on hypocrisy and who wins that pissing contest.

    I for one do not like Michael Moore and I cannot for a minute defend him with any "well at least he didn't do this like those other guys do". That is creating a false choice and is a stretch if you're trying to give Moore any benefit of the doubt. If I were a liberal I think the only good thing I could say about him is that he’d generally be on the same side of the political fence as me. He comes across as an elitist snob who thinks he’s one step above everyone not in lock step with him on the evolutionary scale. His obviously deceitful out of context documentaries make my skin crawl. When I look at the tub of sh!t I can only shake my head that he has the gall to talk about the cost of health care in the US when it’s gluttonous specimens like him that add such a large part of that cost…..and now that he’s become rich and even fatter off of his only in America success he once again bad mouths it...which ironically will make him more money. Put it this way. He’s the wrong poster boy for these causes. I do not respect him at all.
  13. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    :blahblah: , indeed. Can you be any more vague??

    So, in your view, Moore's willingness to take down the whole system that gives the human race the HIGHEST standard of living it has ever had is just peachy fine with you simply because he -- ONE man -- is (presumably) willing to sacrificing a few more steaks and fine red lobsters??!!!! :wha:

    Look, if the guy wants to SHOW THE WAY by taking off about a hundred or so pounds, and then wants to donate 90% of his (ill-gotten) gains to actually benefit OTHERS, rather than to build up a bigger war-chest for HIS self-serving propaganda machine, then he *might* have some credibility. Right now he has none. Nada. Zilch.

    Starkist wants tuna that taste good, not tunas who have "good (sic) taste".


    Carry on.

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  14. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Trying for one or the other, but failing miserably at both. "Do one thing, and do it well." - St. Francis of Assisi


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  15. PatsFanInVa

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    I haven't seen one of his films for a while, not because I don't enjoy them, but because I generally wait for stuff to get on TV.... they don't tend to recycle his stuff on TV because, well, you know. They're on serious subjects. We can watch the fictional killings of several thousand people every year, but we can't stand the facts connected to, for instance, the Columbine shootings.

    I know Moore's stuff is a huge lightning rod for the right, and as you and fog rightly identify, he is fat -- which seems to be entirely too much just on the face of it. Whatever he has done with his life, he is fat; case closed.

    What I see is a guy that throws red meat out there for the left, and sometimes it's a big eye-opener even (or especially) for someone who knows the basics but has to be reminded of them. I for one am used to a cynical acceptance of something that is just asinine for decades. When I see his films I typically say to myself "true dat," followed by "and what can you do about it."

    I have no trouble w/the film's title, though I haven't seen the film. For many the system Fog so loves generates death sentences.

    Fog is right to identify that extremist alternatives have been failures, and by the way, there is no reason to believe that a theocratic alternative would generate anything else. No lending at interest, no capitalism. Think about it.

    Mixed economies at this writing seem to be the best way of securing the blessings of markets without the worst depredations of capitalism.

    But as we are forewarned by the film's title, Moore certainly isn't announcing that he is going to deliver a considered analysis of what could and should change and what system may be called on to supplant Capitalism. I doubt he goes through the whole film without a nod to various mixed economies, but we'd have to see the film to know, wouldn't we?

    So, why don't we all go see it and reconvene to decide whether "Michael Moore is Evil" (this time)?

    And an aside: I know pretty early on that I'm dealing w/a lefty in his films. He entertains, and he presents facts. He does not argue that they are the only interpretations of the facts. He presents his.

    As to fairness it is worth considering that in "Bowling for Columbine," while he spends a great deal of time on gun violence and the American murder rate, he also makes a point of pointing out that Canadians have a similar gun ownership rate to the US - but that Canadians simply don't tend to shoot each other as much. He leaves the gun violence question largely to the viewer, the Parker/Stone animation notwithstanding.

    So, long story short, I know Michael Moore drives the fogs of the world nuts, or more accurately, adds to their meshugas. In terms of factual distortion, the big pharma shills I see on CSPAN make anything Moore dishes up look quite tame.

    So I took the charge of "hypocrisy" to be Fog's problem w/Moore this time. The fact that a man who has made a lot of money decries the system in which money is used, may not be as persuasive as Fog believes it to be.

    In a nod to the argument at hand, I would in fact love to hear that Moore made a principle of donating 10% or 20% or whatever percent to charity (of course Fog would like him to donate 90%, since it seems so unlikely he will do so.) I do not have any figures on the amount he has donated thus far to Raising Malawi, which famously he founded and Madonna -- the other rightist lightning rod -- has also given to generously.

    A final coda: if Moore wants Capitalism to be done away with, the least effective action he could take would be to put his money in charity. Charity under the capitalist system in use in the United States, while it does alleviate suffering within capitalism, does nothing to change the system that by standard critiques of capitalism, has poverty as a built-in feature.

    Were he to find a radical leftist political party, for example, one that demanded of rich men that if they would be perfect, they should give up all their possessions -- as both Lenin and Jesus demanded -- and if that organization were effective at the stated goal (where both Lenin and Jesus failed,) then Moore would have at his disposal such a tool.

    Again, having not seen the film, I am not certain he answers the question of what is less evil than capitalism. But if that answer is forthcoming, that is the measure by which Moore's putative hypocrisy should be taken: does he or does he not work to either replace Capitalism, or work to mitigate its most egregious excesses.

    The films themselves do the latter, but in that he has a great deal of personal wealth, uses of that wealth to mitigate the excesses could take the form of charity, political action, or both.

    PFnV
  16. PatsFanInVa

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    Gawd. Just saw the commercial for it. "Capitalism - A Love Story". Of course, that title is not in giant scare type in the OP...

    Makes me think, hmmmm. Sort of more likely to dwell on the bailouts -- i.e., the love story -- than the evils of capitalism in its own right.

    This is more a swipe at the moderates like me, who wanted to save the system (i.e., reluctantly pro-bailout) than capitalists-in-populist-drag, who declaimed against bailouts despite being beholden to the system they saved. (And not only are they beholden to those interests, they are now virulently railing against the state "screwing with" capitalism which is deemed to always be best -- never mind that market capitalism collapsed in 2008 and was rescued whole hog by the state.)

    Sometimes the layers of irony around here are just too much.

    Moore seems to be pinging me ex post facto, not the markets-know-best crowd... because I'm supposed to know better.

    Certainly food for thought. Make ya a deal. I'll go see it if you do, Fog. Then we can discuss it on its merits.

    PFnV
  17. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Like this example?

    What is your Awesome Mommy and Daddy telling us here? We should dress like freaking clowns?

    [​IMG]

    You'd be better off not referring to anyone as a hypocrit. How's life in your home in Lithuania? Your commentary on American society is hilarious.
  18. IcyPatriot

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    #87 Jersey

    I'm not a fan of Moore ... but he fits a stereotype which is not fitting of his intelligence. He is a way smarter guy than he appears and he has a great gift for making film. Unfortunately he is cast into the fat idiot slob category which is a bit unfair. Love him or hate him people like Moore are great for reminding us that we do have the right to free speech and opinion. Moore - Van Jones - Glen Beck - they serve a purpose.
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, Fog, I've lived in a number of European countries and spent 7 years abroad, so I too have the kind of knowledge you're talking about. But, perhaps one difference is that I lived in a variety of countries, and found that they all have their virtues. And, when you get down to the individuals, most people are decent and happy and hard working. The US certainly has it's advantages, but it doesn't have all the advantages. While I prefer the US to other places, I can definitely make a case for living in Sweden, Norway, France, Portugal, Spain, or Switzerland, and in Portugal. You apparently live abroad and suffer people with your American arrogance, perhaps not understanding why they don't want to be like America in every way.

    In my opinion, his prayer is an ego trip, since he believes he's the messiah, and in true nepotist fashion appoints his family into influential roles in his absurd fantasy. He's a self-serving nut in my opinion, who appeals mostly to lonely hearts. That does not mean he's evil; in fact, he may play an important role to those who are dependent on him. But, they are few in number.

    Many disagree with that.

    I think Reverend Moon is committed to his beliefs as Michael Moore is to his. I wasn't talking about what they do for others. Both of them within their means are very generous, but again I suspect that Reverend Moon lives in greater luxury than Michael Moore. I could be wrong, but certainly it's my impression from the way they dress and act, and the people they hobnob with.


    I don't really care what someone looks like, but my point was simply that it is wrong to make fun of people because they are overweight or unattractive.


    Michael Moore doesn't bash America anymore than Rush, Beck, Malkin, etc. do. He believes in an America where all people are treated equally and the basic needs of the poor are given more importance than the decadent desires of the wealthy.
  20. PatsFanInVa

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    The Reverend Moon's organizations, like their leader, do not have unquestioned sterling reputations, so far as their use of funds go:

    Rev. Moon and the United Nations:

    This as part of an analysis of the worthiness of U.C. standing as a UN recognized NGO. The remainder of the article is also fascinating reading, regardles of what one thinks of Moon's claim to messiahship, or any given facet of his theology.

    PFnV
  21. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Wow, globalpolicy.org. Why don't you go ask Hitler how he feels about the Jews while you're at it.


    Talk about "Sicko". You've nailed it. "So, Judas, how was your day?"



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  22. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Follow the logic here, indulge for just a moment: Michael holds himself up as some kind of "hero" for the "working class/underclass", fighting the "evil" corporate world. So, what does he do?? He amasses a huge fortune, proudly proclaiming: "I do this so I won't be beholden to others about what I direct and put on the screen for others to see." Ok, that's his right.

    But, where does he get the money to do this?? From whom does he receive the financial means to put things on the screen that others see?? He gets it all from the same capitalistic society he then wants to destroy. Can you say "self-hating propagandist"??? But, actually, I doubt he wants to cut off his own flow of capital; he just wants to cut off OTHER PEOPLE'S flow of capital. Typical self-righteous "liberal". Disgusting.

    Finally, does he NOT know that people are starving to death all over this world??? Does he not know that some 30,000 children, women, and elderly die of malnutrition every WEEK in the world??? Yet he, the "great crusader" Michael Moore looks like an advertisement for "Before" in Weight Watchers. More disgusting.


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  23. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    There goes your "apparently" again, betraying your ignorance openly. Instead of just going to the "nice" rich places in Western Europe, you need to live in the "not so nice" poorer, more oppressed places in Europe and elsewhere. Go to Belarus for a year; or Zimbabwe; or Cuba; North Korea. Then tell us how "evil" the U.S. is by comparison. I dare you.


    So, if somebody asks you to do something important, like saving the world from death, disease, sin, and crime, you would call it an "ego trip" if you obeyed that call??? You need to understand that Father Moon NEVER set out to claim any special titles or privileges for himself. He has spent his entire life serving and living for others. The fact that millions around the world have recognized that goodness in him -- many of whom never even MET him in person in the beginning -- certainly dispels ANY notion of "self-aggrandizement" on his part. NOBODY goes through tortures, imprisonment six times, being opposed and vilified by many forces in the world, beatings and being sent to death on numerous occasions .... as acts of "self-promotion". That's just plain stupid.


    Because they have their own self-serving agendas. Jesus was wrongly opposed throughout his life; but that didn't make him into a bad man. It only proved how corrupt and wrong the forces that opposed him were.

    Father Moon is FAR MORE committed to his beliefs than Michael Moore will ever be. Father Moon has put his life on the line constantly throughout his life, from the time his country was illegally occupied by the Japanese in his youth, to when the communists took over the north; to jealous Christians in the south; and even to racially and religiously bigoted Americans later in his life. But Father Moon has NEVER cracked, NEVER wavered, not even a millimeter. Michael Moore cannot hold Father Moon's fishing boots.

    With all the starving people in the world, all the under-nourished women and children, Michael Moore's attack on "capitalism" is the height of ironic hypocrisy. Doesn't mean he should be hated for it, but he needs to look in a mirror before he does any more "crusades".

    Please. Moore wants to send America down a path he has NO idea where it leads; Rush, Beck, et. al., at least want to keep the known quantity and improve on it; Moore wants to throw it all away. That's what Lenin, Stalin, Castro, Pol Pot, and Mugabe did to their countries. No thanks.



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  24. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I didn't say the US was evil; in fact, I said that I love this country and for me it is the greatest country. Certainly there are a great many countries where life is worse, but that said there are relatively few Zimbabwes or North Koreas, though there are a number of poor countries, where people often live simpler lives and have fewer expectation.

    I'm not disputing what the Reverend Moon believes about himself, but my view is that the people he hobnobs with and the way he acquired his wealth make him at best a principled individual who, like others, survived the North Korean prisons. Moon was lucky that he was saved by UN troops, made himself rich, and had some natural talents that served him well.

    I don't think Moon is taken seriously enough to be opposed, except perhaps by the North Koreans. I regard him as a wealthy conservative with eccentric views.

    Moore hasn't wavered either. I'd say both Moon and Moore are equally committed to their views.

    No one's perfect. As you have pointed out, Reverend Moon does a lot of good works (even from my perspective), but he also lives well and has made his share of mistakes with his children,etc. He has different goals than Moore.

    Actually, all we know is what Moore wants to change; we don't know how he wants to change it. I basically agree with Moore (though I have yet to see his capitalism movie), and certainly consider myself much more of a capitalist than a socialist.
  25. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1. See the movie then we can discuss what it's actually about. It doesn't simply seem to be "capitalism is evil," it seems to be "capitalism is evil which we all know, and by the way, it's your tax dollars at work [i.e., our recent bailouts.]

    2. Said attitude is exactly the public stance of the house Republicans circa autumn 2008. This, I find incredibly ironic.

    3. We have established that Moore does in fact give some portion of his proceeds to charity. You, since you are supported by others' charity, evidently believe that Michael Moore -- but nobody else -- should be required to give 90% of his income to charity.

    4. Unlike you, Moore makes his money through the capitalist system--yet is critical of same. Very much like Sun Myung Moon (just an example, and a far richer man,) he puts a great deal of his money into spreading his own views. He also gives money to charity. He gives at least some of his to the poverty in Malawi and has donated also to the unemployed in Flint, Mi., where he did his breakthrough film. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. But unlike Moon, Moore is expected to hit the 90% mark.

    5. Your central thesis seems to be that Moore must be encouraging others to somehow evade the capitalist system. Yet his defining struggle has been for jobs for the American worker who sees his films. If you have a job, you have not left the capitalist system. He does not typically urge that these people leave jobs, he urges that they have jobs to go to, and that they receive fair wages from those jobs.

    6. So the actual content of your complaint is not that Moore is urging individuals to become poor. Rather, he is critical of Capitalism in its manifestations that hurt its participants. You could make the same criticism of any 19th-century or turn-of-the-20th-Century writer, from Dickens to Sinclair.

    7. As such, the issue is not that he is somehow losing the money of the working poor, it is that he is damaging the acceptability of capitalism as it is practiced here and now. Critique of Capitalism, indeed, does seem to be part and parcel of his filmmaking.

    8. It is not, however, the working poor who he critiques, by and large. It is the multimillionaires who unthinkingly screw said working poor.

    9. I note that you believe, now, that Moore's fatness has caused world hunger. Oddly enough, he has also given generously to some of the poorest in the world; certainly more than enough to offset his own caloric intake. In a perfect world, with perfect distribution of food, water, and soil nutrient resources, as well as instantaneous transportation of food where it has to go with no energy cost, his girth would indeed be taking food out of someone's mouth directly.

    But we are not in a perfect world, we are in a capitalist world.

    A far more perfect solution would be if every religious organization the world over stopped urging higher birth-rates, if you are really concerned with starvation and hunger. But you're not. You are concerned with justifying the "Moore is a fat-ass" line of "argument" you unsuccessfully led your thread with. There's no justification, it's just hateful and completely irrelevent to your other spurious arguments.

    So once again, Fog, I will go see the film if you do, and we can talk intelligently about it.

    If you don't even see the film, how the hell can you have such a strong opinion of it?

    PFnV
  26. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Moore Movie:
    I'd rather listen to "Rap Crap" than watch it.

    Fat:
    All across America the Left Wing Loony Toons are pulling their hair out and insulting all the poor little "Fat Kids" calling them names and telling them they are Obese and that they should be eating Celery instead of ice cream, how do you think a poor little "fat kid" feels when he watches somebody like the slinky slimey ratty little weasel Matt Lauer calling people "fat"

    If the liberal a$s holes want a Poster Boy for Obesety they should use America's #1 TUB OF SH!T, Michael Moore.

    GOD LOVES LITTLE FAT KIDS

    PS
    I'm skinny always have been.

    Michael Moore in his new brick house-------->:bricks:
  27. alvinnf

    alvinnf Rookie

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    I don't have a problem with MM makin dough off his movies, I'm pro capitalism. Good for him, he chose to whore himself out to one side, fine. Guys like MM are serving themselves first that too is fine. Let's not however, see his movies as unbiased documentaries because they are not. Cinema is dead, it's been dead and it's staying dead. Merit in writing and in purpose for movies is dead.

    As far as being fat, I don't know. Part of me says call a pork pod a pork pod, they got themselves into that mess they should be willing to get themselves out. Part me say you have to respect all others, that's getting harder by the day.
  28. Fogbuster

    Fogbuster Rookie

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    Re: #4 above, how would you know how I make money???? Is that YOU I see following me around town everywhere???? :rolleyes: Give that one a rest, PF, or you risk looking like a total imbecile talking out your wrong end. (Peee-yewww)

    As for M&M (Mike Moore), I'm against his film because of HIM, because of HIS super-sized hypocrisy. As you admit, HE makes money off the very system he wants to topple! What is that!!?? :confused2: Self-disgust, self-loathing??? Michael, guy, I'm sorry you have problems but don't make ME and the rest of America pay for YOUR problems. Deal with YOUR issues without spilling them all out onto the rest of us, dude. Capiche?? WTH.

    If Mike was genuinely concerned about "fixing the system" he would lead the way by fixing himself FIRST: he would show us all -- demonstrate to us, teach us by his example -- the right way to live; he would NOT be like all the Hollywood celeb libbies who live pampered lives of opulence & extreme luxury, then want to pretend to know about "suffering" in the world. WTH?? Please.

    Then, when M&M (Moore) has compiled a track record of success that is irrefutable, .... and ONLY then .... he can speak. Until that time, he is just a self-confessed "slacker" who knows how to do a good dry-by hit piece interview and catch people off guard and make them look stupid. Nothing more. Drive-by artist. Nada mas.

    As for the points you raise about the failures of capitalism: true and right on the mark. Capitalism is NOT the ideal system because it is too open to selfish abuse of others, taking advantage of and exploiting others. But this is a common trait among ALL the systems the world has seen until now: America's capitalist system, Europe's, Asia's, Africa's, everywhere; AND ALSO under the various communist and socialist regimes of the world, too. So NO system to date has been flawless, not one.

    But why is that?? It's not the system all by itself; it's the fallen nature, the sinful nature of human beings .... THIS is the underlying cause of human abuse and exploitation by our fellow man. Therefore, it is this underlying cause that needs to be addressed first and foremost; until it is, NO "SYSTEM" will ever be able to undo the internal corruption of the human spirit. In the end, we need an internal revolution in the hearts and minds of people; and for each one of us it starts with "me", the "me" that is the first person that "I" need to change. We each are an "I" and a "me", and we each need to change ourselves BEFORE we can mount the crusade against others, be they "capitalists", "communists", "socialists", "liberals", or "conservatives", or whatever other category we choose select.

    Peace, out. V

    //
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2009
  29. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thats right as much as I dislike people like Moore I have to say he saw what happened way back when he went after GM and he figured out he could really make money if he zeroed in on America "the capitalists".

    Barnum & Bailey would love Moore (a sucker born every minute)

    The "Blame America Goof Balls" of the country will flock to to the theatres to sit and squirm with delight as the "Fat Bastard" trashes our country and our way of life, you can bet your a$s Moore will never leave this country.

    Moore Is A Disgusting Person ($$$$$$$$$$$$$)
  30. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, the only knowledge I have of how you make your living is what you have posted here. My understanding is that you are church-supported. Is that not the case?

    From what I've seen of his work, Moore actually critiques capitalism, but (in my own viewing,) has not advocated the abandonment of a market economy. Here is another example of the same principle:

    Let's say I buy a pair of slacks and they are too loose. I go to the tailor and ask him to take in the waste 2 inches. Have I advocated the abolition of trousers? No, I have noticed a fault with the trousers I have.

    I have never seen Moore advocating that we switch to a theocracy or communism are anything of the sort. I have seen him critiquing capitalism and the greedy rich at the top. He's hardly alone in that. (See House Republicans, Autumn 2008.)

    From what you've written so far, I think your problem with him is that he is not full of self-loathing. He's just fat. He doesn't seem particularly unhappy about it... he actually seems fairly cheerful, actually. And quite astute about the failings of a system you seem quite emotionally defensive of.

    And now the cult follower lectures the successful filmmaker on how he should best lead. But Fog, what if others among us are not looking for a messiah? What if we think he's just a filmmaker? He does not seem to be a particularly pampered glitterati type. Last I heard he splits his time between Detroit and NY, and does not live in Hollywood -- but this is only so important. I am sure he doesn't wear rags and sandals. I do not think it is necessary to be an ascetic to notice faults with capitalism. Again, Moon is a fair example. He is not poor and does not live an impoverished lifestyle to my knowledge. Yet he too says he is concerned with those who are poor. Is Moon a hypocrite?

    So he needs a track record of dropping out of society? Because he has the critical acclaim, and he has the usual yardstick of success in American, money -- which, for Moore and for Moore only, you seem to believe is irrelevant. He has succeeded as a filmmaker.

    Oh and by the way, he can speak now. We do not live in a theocracy or any other form of dictatorship. We have the freedom to speak here (I speak of the U.S., where I live.) We like that freedom here.

    If you have enough to eat, and don't give 90% of your income to charity, aren't you a hypocrite for critiquing Capitalism? You seem to say above that you do, in fact, work within the capitalist system for your money. Perhaps there is yet another sector you toil in, or toiled in, if you are retired. But you're sort of screwed now if you work in the private sector, assuming you don't work in one way or another for the church (i.e., dependent on charity.)

    And in your last 'graph you do note the heart of the matter, as regards human nature. You are correct: utopia will not be an achievement of government or of an economic system. So, essentially, you have need of perfecting yourself, before you can "mount the crusade against others," Moore included (not to mention the various stalking-horse targets you usually throw out there.)

    I personally do not regard myself as perfect, yet I notice this in you. You do not regard yourself as perfect, and you perceive it in Moore. So it seems that none of us refrain from judging one another, despite our imperfections.

    But again, there is a problem here: I ask you whether you live up to your own standard. Moore has never espoused a standard of hair-shirt asceticism as a prerequisite to commentary on the capitalist system.

    I feel quite free to say there are problems with our system, as do you. I doubt we agree on what those problems are. Yet we are both thriving and alive.

    Perhaps Moore recognizes that there can be not a perfect world, but a better world, if we fight against the worst excesses we see therein.

    Why is it bad when those excesses come from Craigslist (or at least are transacted using Craigslist,) but okay when those excesses come as an organic concommitant of the economic system within which we function?

    PFnV

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