Memo to Pats fans

[SeauOUCH]

Don't get me wrong, there is plenty of room for improvement. Plenty of things that need to be fixed this year. Some other things that need to be addressed in the offseason. And many people have brought up some very good points about the coordinators, lack of creativity/predictability in play calling, lack of pass rush, etc. I agree with the vast majority of those assessments.

It's the 'this team stinks', 'the season is over', these are the biggest under achievers ever', etc., that leaves me shaking my head. I live outside New England and one of the biggest things thrown in my face is 'bandwagon fans', 'cokcy and arrogant fans', etc. Even though all that is easily refuted, when I see Pats fans talking that way, it makes me wonder if the fanbase as a whole may indeed be spoiled and delusional.

Coming into this year I figured 12-4 and I still think the same thing. I felt like 16-0 is something that happens once every thirty years, and that may have raised a certain portion of fans expectations so high that they feel shortchanged with anything more than one or two losses in a season. On top of that they honestly expect that every single year.

Those are excellent aspirations, but they're also unrealistic expectations in my opinion. Of course I aspire for this team to be more than 11-5, but to freak out over any and every loss seems absurd to me.

Maybe the preseason hype by the media left some with such high expectations that there was no place to go but down.

These chicken littles remind me of my girlfriend, she really started getting into football during the '07 season & is so spoiled by that year that every loss is mind blowing to her. When your only reference point is a perfect season when we had the best offense of all time you are bound to be disappointed.

People forget that even in our Super Bowl winning years we had a clunker now & then, on '03 we got DESTROYED by Pitt in the regular season & returned the favor in the playoffs.

This team has flaws but I'll take 11+ wins every single year & the chance to compete in the playoffs. Only the Colts have been as consistantly good as us over such a long period of time ( not counting the playoffs ) Its pretty rare for any team to stay competitive year after year for such a long stretch so ENJOY IT while you can, it wont last forever.

 

[Jackson 2]

I was going to post this as a reply to a comment elsewhere, but rather than hijack that thread I figured it would be better to start another one instead. It was specifically in response to a comment that '11-5 is mediocre', but it's not directed to that specific person; it's more in response to all the forum members that have so much to say after a loss but so little to say after a win.


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11-5 is mediocre? What's 14-2, slightly above average? Better yet, what's 9-7, epic failure? I can't imagine what label you give to those fifteen or so teams that lose more than they win.


The losses have been disappointing, but let's get real people. Half the Pats losses this year were to teams that nobody else has beaten either, in 22 games so far. They've lost one game by more than a touchdown. A grand total of six out of 32 teams have a better record, and three of those are only one game ahead. Obviously the Pats are not in the NFL's elite at this moment, but that group includes only three teams. There's still one-third of the regular season to be played, plus the playoffs.


Sorry, I don't mean to single any one person out but the over reaction on this board seems to grow exponentially after any loss by this team. Nobody seems to remember the Giants run in '07, where the Steelers were two years before that at this time of the season, and worst of all the only thing anybody seems to remember from 2001 is three games to glory - while conveniently forgetting the fact the Pats were 5-5 that year.

14-2 regular seasons followed by a bye and three straight wins are awesome but they're not a birthright; they're a whole lot of fun but they are the exception and not the rule.

Will the Pats turn things around and win another championship? Who knows, why not stick around and see what happens rather than write the season off? It's possible they will, but there's more of a probability that somebody else will instead; that's because there are a lot of other good teams trying to win too.

Not one single team - even the Saints or Colts - has a better chance of winning the Super Bowl than they do of not winning the Super Bowl right now. So if not winning it all is going to cause such despair, then why follow the game at all? Any NFL team has only about a 3% chance of winning the Super Bowl, and on average an NFL fan will see his team win three championships from the time he is born till the day he is 80 years old.

So think about it. If anything less than a championship is going to cause you such anguish, I suggest you turn in your Pats gear for a Brees, Manning or Favre jersey; after all, the Saints, Colts and Vikings have the NFL's best records right now. It sounds to me like you might be a whole lot happier.

Thank you for an absolutely terrific post. I haven't responded to anything here for a while and not only because I've been away for a week (including at the game Monday night in NOLA), but principally because I've been somewhere between disgusted and bored with the unrealistic and negative tone of what's appeared here lately. A description of this team's potential record of 11-5 as "mediocre" (definition: inferior to average in quality) displays a laughable misunderstanding or deliberate misuse of the term. The Patriots right now are a far from perfect team. What they are, in my opinion, is a talented team with flaws which may or may not be correctable enough to win a Super Bowl. If someone wants to express doubt that it's possible for them to do so, it's OK with me. But anyone who claims that it's out of the question is playing fast and loose with the truth as it relates to the recent history of teams which have been in similar situations at this point in their seasons and gone on to win the Super Bowl. Once again, just my opinion.

 

[Patstopia]

I guess its all in your point of view. I plan on watching and enjoying the rest of the season and hope for good things to happen rather than wring my hands and expect the worse. I've seen too many turnarounds happen in football to assume anything until the games are played.

 

[patsfan-1982]

it's not about how many regular season win's the pats get cause 16 and 0 did not work for them

and it's not about not being a fan any more because my team is not 16 and 0 i am a redsox fan and i went most of my life with out seeing them get a ring and a lot of fan's did not get to see them win in there life time

i will all way's be a pats fan and yes i am grateful that my team even in a rebuilding year, can make the playoff's.

yes this is a rebuilding year. and most team's would not win more then 6 game's, in a rebuilding year.

yes some of us take it to far by saying brady suck's, BB suck's, and so on.

but saying this team dose not have what it take's to get a ring this year is just the truth it's not jumping ship.

yes 10 and 11 win team's like the 2005. steelers, the 2007 g man. and the 2001 pats, all got to the super bowl. with a tough defense. and a power running,


the 2009 pats, are a finesse team. and when you hit them in the mouth they fold, and cant put point's on the bord. and on defense there in not a nuff talent, they can't stop a team with any kind of a passing, game they can't stop the run. and they have no pass rush at all,


and that's the truth there is no way to sugar coat that

 

[mgteich]

I suspect much of the disappointment comes from those who hated the colts for the last 10 years. We have become the colts. We have a great offense and are building a defense.

What is hardest to take about Monday night was the ability of the saints defense to thoroughly confuse our offense. They played without all three of their corners and still had no trouble confusing Tom Brady. Their corners had been on the team one and two WEEKS and they didn't have trouble with coverages. Their coaches didn't have problems hiding defensive weaknesses. I think a player by player comparison of the defenses will show that we have as much talent as they do.
============================================
I STRONGLY agree with the OP. Of course, we want to win the Super Bowl every year, but the other 31 teams are NOT failures. The patriots and the colts have won an incredible number of games this decade (more than anyone ever), including four Super Bowls. This has been one of the great rivalries of all time. We both have expected to win 10 games each season and be in the playoffs or very close. The colts have won a couple of more games in the regular season. Our advantage is where it counts, in the second season.

The patriots of this decade are one of the best teams of any decade. The 2003 and 2004 patriots were on of the best all-time teams for a single season. Could this decade have been better for us? Sure! Can we still win this last Super Bowl of the decade? Sure!

But let's all face it. We are not the 2004 patriots. That quality of team doesn't come around often.

We weren't in 2005, 2006, 2007 or 2008. We've done incredibly well in these rebuilding years. After collapsing in the AFC championship in the 2006 season, we almost won with a weak defense in 2007. We only needed to cover one more play than we did.

For me, the dynasty is the Kraft patriots. For me, there has never been a franchise like it. And yes, I know that others would point to the celtics or the lakers or even the yankees as consistently great franchises in their day.

 

[supafly]

You must have watched a different Giants team than I saw in 2007. They had a 6 game win streak that ended in October, and were pretty much one win, one loss through November and December. They also lost 41-17 to the Vikings on November 25th.

As for the game against the Pats, the Giants had a 12-point lead at the beginning of the 3rd and were up by 5 at the end of the third before losing the lead.

In short, the Giants were actually highly inconsistent down the stretch before figuring out how to win in the playoffs. Feel free to follow the link and update your history accordingly.

I stand corrected in my memory of the last regular season game of 07. You are right, we were not down 11 with about a quarter to go, we were down 12 with 1 1/2 quarters to go--I knew it was damn close going to the wire, but was about 1/2 a quarter wrong.

Regardless, the Giants were bringing it during that last game, and were very pumped up.

Where you're wrong in your comparison is the NYG team of 07 was more than capable of winning on the road, as they could go into any other teams' stadium at will and win. That is more than key for a team heading into the playoffs, unless you have locked up the #1 seed and HFA. This 09 NE team is headed into the month of Dec. with a winless road record, that does not bode very well for a team needing wins away from home and headed to the playoffs. And I am not saying they can't pull it off, just that the comparisons to the 07 NYG are getting old quickly.

I will agree that there are some similarities with any team who has a 10-6 or 11-5 record, you could even compare them with the 01 Pats who had a 5-5 record, or any team who didn't play dominant throughout the year. Many teams who have won the SB have suffered poor losses throughout the yr, the 07 NYG aren't special in that regard. What they did well was win away from home, as they reached 9-10 straight away wins in a row. They also had a dominant defense in many areas, and were capable of rushing the QB.

I will admit there are some similarities with the 09 Pats/07 NYG, but a lot are just saying that because the 07 Giants were inconsistant and 'only' accumulated a 10 win season. Several of their losses were due to poor turnover performances by Eli, their defense was still tougher, IMO. The main thing that helped the NYG that yr in the playoffs is that they only had 1 real hard game.

Only time will tell if we can get hot down the stretch like they did, and I hope you're right and we do--we all know they certainly have the potential.

 

[supafly]

but saying this team dose not have what it take's to get a ring this year is just the truth it's not jumping ship.

yes 10 and 11 win team's like the 2005. steelers, the 2007 g man. and the 2001 pats, all got to the super bowl. with a tough defense. and a power running,


the 2009 pats, are a finesse team. and when you hit them in the mouth they fold, and cant put point's on the bord. and on defense there in not a nuff talent, they can't stop a team with any kind of a passing, game they can't stop the run. and they have no pass rush at all,


and that's the truth there is no way to sugar coat that

These are some of the things most of us are afraid of, and why I am cautious to keep comparing this team to the 07 NYG/05 PIT/01 NE.

 

[supafly]

For me, the dynasty is the Kraft patriots. For me, there has never been a franchise like it. And yes, I know that others would point to the celtics or the lakers or even the yankees as consistently great franchises in their day.

Just to be considered with these other great teams is quite an honor, and as a fan base we really should cherish every single game.

The great thing is with the Kraft's acquisition we can pretty much bank on being in contention just about every December. Even in the 02 and 08 yrs when we didn't go to the Playoffs, we still were able to enjoy Pats football through the very final week of the regular season.

That in itself is quite an accomplishment, and a gift to the fans in itself.

 

[MassPats38]

I stand corrected in my memory of the last regular season game of 07. You are right, we were not down 11 with about a quarter to go, we were down 12 with 1 1/2 quarters to go--I knew it was damn close going to the wire, but was about 1/2 a quarter wrong.

Regardless, the Giants were bringing it during that last game, and were very pumped up.

Where you're wrong in your comparison is the NYG team of 07 was more than capable of winning on the road, as they could go into any other teams' stadium at will and win. That is more than key for a team heading into the playoffs, unless you have locked up the #1 seed and HFA. This 09 NE team is headed into the month of Dec. with a winless road record, that does not bode very well for a team needing wins away from home and headed to the playoffs. And I am not saying they can't pull it off, just that the comparisons to the 07 NYG are getting old quickly.

I will agree that there are some similarities with any team who has a 10-6 or 11-5 record, you could even compare them with the 01 Pats who had a 5-5 record, or any team who didn't play dominant throughout the year. Many teams who have won the SB have suffered poor losses throughout the yr, the 07 NYG aren't special in that regard. What they did well was win away from home, as they reached 9-10 straight away wins in a row. They also had a dominant defense in many areas, and were capable of rushing the QB.

I will admit there are some similarities with the 09 Pats/07 NYG, but a lot are just saying that because the 07 Giants were inconsistant and 'only' accumulated a 10 win season. Several of their losses were due to poor turnover performances by Eli, their defense was still tougher, IMO. The main thing that helped the NYG that yr in the playoffs is that they only had 1 real hard game.

Only time will tell if we can get hot down the stretch like they did, and I hope you're right and we do--we all know we certainly have the potential.

I didn't compare the present Pats to the '07 Giants. I just pointed out the Giants were far from great during the season. As that link also points out, the Giants' defense barely broke the top 10 in any category for the season. I don't doubt the quality of the Giants defensive line, but it did not show during the season with any consistency.

As for winning on the road, the Giants had a weak schedule that year and beat abysmal teams on the road (the Redskins ended up at 9-7 and was the only team with close to a winning record played on the road), losing only once to the only team that year that went to the playoffs (the Cowboys). Everybody discounts the Pats road win over the Bucs, but by comparison that represents a similar win to most of the Giants wins on the road in '07. Take a look at the standings and the teams beaten on the road and I supect you would not conclude the '07 Giants were road warriors during the regular season. The Giants did not beat any good team in away games, so it is not fair to compare Pats losses on the road to likely number 1 seeds in the AFC and NFC to that road record. It would be fairer to compare the remaining Patriot road games to that record as the quality of opponents is closer, but still significantly better, than what the Giants beat that year.

In reality, the Giants are an example of a team that overperformed in the post-season in a manner similar to the 2001 Patriots (although the 2001 Pats went into the playoffs on a tear, unlike the Giants). It is virtually impossible to make an intelligent comparison between the 2009 Patriots and the 2001 Patriots or 2007 Giants as each situation has so many moving pieces that had to click at precisely the right time. I believe the OP is simply trying to point out that teams have done more with worse regular season performances than a 1 and done as many fans here appear to have concluded is the probable outcome after game 11. The Patriots have 5 more games to fix the problems, and then the real season begins. I for one am not writing them off at this point.

 

[Itsallovernow]

Yeah dude! Preach it! Humiliate all these fair-weather fools.

 

[supafly]

I didn't compare the present Pats to the '07 Giants. I just pointed out the Giants were far from great during the season. As that link also points out, the Giants' defense barely broke the top 10 in any category for the season. I don't doubt the quality of the Giants defensive line, but it did not show during the season with any consistency.

As for winning on the road, the Giants had a weak schedule that year and beat abysmal teams on the road (the Redskins ended up at 9-7 and was the only team with close to a winning record played on the road), losing only once to the only team that year that went to the playoffs (the Cowboys). Everybody discounts the Pats road win over the Bucs, but by comparison that represents a similar win to most of the Giants wins on the road in '07. Take a look at the standings and the teams beaten on the road and I supect you would not conclude the '07 Giants were road warriors during the regular season. The Giants did not beat any good team in away games, so it is not fair to compare Pats losses on the road to likely number 1 seeds in the AFC and NFC to that road record. It would be fairer to compare the remaining Patriot road games to that record as the quality of opponents is closer, but still significantly better, than what the Giants beat that year.

In reality, the Giants are an example of a team that overperformed in the post-season in a manner similar to the 2001 Patriots (although the 2001 Pats went into the playoffs on a tear, unlike the Giants). It is virtually impossible to make an intelligent comparison between the 2009 Patriots and the 2001 Patriots or 2007 Giants as each situation has so many moving pieces that had to click at precisely the right time. I believe the OP is simply trying to point out that teams have done more with worse regular season performances than a 1 and done as many fans here appear to have concluded is the probable outcome after game 11.

Fair enough, FWIW--I agree with you on some key things here, particularly the OP's intent, etc.

Just getting quickly tired of all the 07 NYG comparisons the past couple days, if anything I would hope to be more like the 01 Pats--although the offense and defensive scheme is way different, I would like the fieryness and underdog role to return.

And the holy terror down the stretch and #2 seed wouldn't hurt either.

Anyway, nice analysis--good back and forth, etc.

 

[eagle eye]

I suppose its all relative to what you are used to and younger Patriots fans are used to winning seasons, playoffs and Superbowls. Some of us grew up in different times when we made the Superbowl in '85 it was huge and the fans felt that we had been building towards it with I think it was 8-8 and 9-7 the two seasons before. We went 11-5 that season, the Bears were unbeaten for a long time that season, I'm not sure and I'm not bothering to check but I think they went 13-0. Anyways 11-5 made all us fans think we were in the big leagues and when we did it again the next season we were sure that it was gonna be our year but Elway took care of that very quickly, then we dropped back into the shadows and boy those were lean years in the late eighties and early ninties. Like a 1-15 and 2-14 season, you young guys don't know how lucky you are.
But then Kraft came along and Bledsoe and Parcells and Curtis Martin and we looked all set for to be a big time team making the Superbowl in 96 after we drafted Terry Glenn. Parcells gets on his bike to the dismay of all the fans and then really hurts us by taking up the HC job with the Jets in an underhand capacity, he was not supposed to coach that season but he wangled his way around it. And then Martin leaves the year after to follow him to the Jets and we are all even more disgusted and dismayed and now everything was falling apart. And then Belichick arrived and its been wonderful since then.
I've seen the rough times, the blowups that looked like it would end us and we were all unhappy with Kraft for pissing off the Tuna at first but that soon turned to rage towards Parcells.

Still though, we have only had one losing season since '96. Thats just unbelievable, its like these days you wonder before the season starts if we are gonna make a push for the Superbowl. Years ago it was just hoping we could win the division or maybe even scrape into a wild card spot.

FWIW I would rate a 11-5 season as a very good season, 12-4 is excellent and above that is superb, of course the 16-0 thats just on another planet altogether.
I remembered the ups and downs in the 80's and early 90's, its like we have been living a dream since then.
Sorry for blabbering on there.

Just wondering, do we have the longest current run of winning seasons?

 

[patsfan-1982]

I suppose its all relative to what you are used to and younger Patriots fans are used to winning seasons, playoffs and Superbowls. Some of us grew up in different times when we made the Superbowl in '85 it was huge and the fans felt that we had been building towards it with I think it was 8-8 and 9-7 the two seasons before. We went 11-5 that season, the Bears were unbeaten for a long time that season, I'm not sure and I'm not bothering to check but I think they went 13-0. Anyways 11-5 made all us fans think we were in the big leagues and when we did it again the next season we were sure that it was gonna be our year but Elway took care of that very quickly, then we dropped back into the shadows and boy those were lean years in the late eighties and early ninties. Like a 1-15 and 2-14 season, you young guys don't know how lucky you are.
But then Kraft came along and Bledsoe and Parcells and Curtis Martin and we looked all set for to be a big time team making the Superbowl in 96 after we drafted Terry Glenn. Parcells gets on his bike to the dismay of all the fans and then really hurts us by taking up the HC job with the Jets in an underhand capacity, he was not supposed to coach that season but he wangled his way around it. And then Martin leaves the year after to follow him to the Jets and we are all even more disgusted and dismayed and now everything was falling apart. And then Belichick arrived and its been wonderful since then.
I've seen the rough times, the blowups that looked like it would end us and we were all unhappy with Kraft for pissing off the Tuna at first but that soon turned to rage towards Parcells.

Still though, we have only had one losing season since '96. Thats just unbelievable, its like these days you wonder before the season starts if we are gonna make a push for the Superbowl. Years ago it was just hoping we could win the division or maybe even scrape into a wild card spot.

FWIW I would rate a 11-5 season as a very good season, 12-4 is excellent and above that is superb, of course the 16-0 thats just on another planet altogether.
I remembered the ups and downs in the 80's and early 90's, its like we have been living a dream since then.
Sorry for blabbering on there.

Just wondering, do we have the longest current run of winning seasons?

the colts have 8 straight winning season's the pats need 2 more win's to make it 9 straight wining season's

but the record is the 49er, ( 16 ) straight season's of 10 + win's no one will ever touch that record

 

[eagle eye]

the colts have 8 straight winning season's the pats need 2 more win's to make it 9 straight wining season's

but the record is the 49er, ( 16 ) straight season's of 10 + win's no one will ever touch that record

I didn't actually know that but its not surprising with Marino and Young following each other and Jerry Rice there for almost all of it I presume.

 

[patsfan-1982]

I didn't actually know that but its not surprising with Marino and Young following each other and Jerry Rice there for almost all of it I presume.

Montana started the first 8 year's of it and young end it the last 8 and rice was there for all but the first 2 season's

 

[BradyFTW!]

I was going to post this as a reply to a comment elsewhere, but rather than hijack that thread I figured it would be better to start another one instead. It was specifically in response to a comment that '11-5 is mediocre', but it's not directed to that specific person; it's more in response to all the forum members that have so much to say after a loss but so little to say after a win.


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11-5 is mediocre? What's 14-2, slightly above average? Better yet, what's 9-7, epic failure? I can't imagine what label you give to those fifteen or so teams that lose more than they win.


The losses have been disappointing, but let's get real people. Half the Pats losses this year were to teams that nobody else has beaten either, in 22 games so far. They've lost one game by more than a touchdown. A grand total of six out of 32 teams have a better record, and three of those are only one game ahead. Obviously the Pats are not in the NFL's elite at this moment, but that group includes only three teams. There's still one-third of the regular season to be played, plus the playoffs.


Sorry, I don't mean to single any one person out but the over reaction on this board seems to grow exponentially after any loss by this team. Nobody seems to remember the Giants run in '07, where the Steelers were two years before that at this time of the season, and worst of all the only thing anybody seems to remember from 2001 is three games to glory - while conveniently forgetting the fact the Pats were 5-5 that year.

14-2 regular seasons followed by a bye and three straight wins are awesome but they're not a birthright; they're a whole lot of fun but they are the exception and not the rule.

Will the Pats turn things around and win another championship? Who knows, why not stick around and see what happens rather than write the season off? It's possible they will, but there's more of a probability that somebody else will instead; that's because there are a lot of other good teams trying to win too.

When Tom Brady is your QB, I think it's fair to say that 11-5 is pretty mediocre. To me, that means that you've put a pretty decent team around him: not great, not bad. That said, Brady hasn't really been Brady this year, so the Pats aren't dealing with quite the leg up that they usually have, but he's still having a very good season by any objective measure. There are a lot of teams that would go 12-4 or better with Tom Brady at QB.

Not one single team - even the Saints or Colts - has a better chance of winning the Super Bowl than they do of not winning the Super Bowl right now. So if not winning it all is going to cause such despair, then why follow the game at all? Any NFL team has only about a 3% chance of winning the Super Bowl, and on average an NFL fan will see his team win three championships from the time he is born till the day he is 80 years old.

I totally agree with that part, though. I have an assignment for everyone: go back and watch the 2001, 2003, and 2004 playoffs, and count the number of times that we survived by a matter of inches. Winning a SB is not a matter of having "it" or not having "it". It's a matter of putting yourself in a position to win, and even then the odds are stacked against you, and you just have to get lucky and seize your opportunities when you get them. All you can do is play the odds, and however frustrated I am now, I still think that Belichick does that better than anyone.

As far as this year, though, I hate to say it but I just don't think we have the fundamental abilities that a team needs to take advantage of those opportunities. Pass rushes and pass protection don't just appear. We don't do either particularly well, and while I do think that the pass protection issue might be fixable, I don't see where we're going to suddenly get a pass rush from. Of course, I didn't think that run defenses appeared overnight either, until Indy's did just in time for the 2006 playoffs, so I guess equally weird things have happened.

 

[oldskool138]

Isn't this type of post getting pretty lame? Browbeating other fans by saying your team doesn't have a "birthright" to a good record after a frustrating and tough loss does no one any good.

Yes, some posters can get a little over the top in their criticism of the Pats after a loss but implying that people are going to jump off the band wagon suddenly totally misreads the Pats fanbase.

I mean, seriously, do you think that after the Pats get their collective bntts handed them that people are going to suddenly throw up their hands and say "That's it! I'm rooting for some other team! F the Pats!"?

 

[eagle eye]

I certainly don't think that at all. The difference I suppose might be that newer fans almost expect perfection all the time. My first thought is our record, if its good enough to make the playoffs then its still a great season for me.

 

[Wolfpack]

11-5 was good enough to win 3 of the past 10 Super Bowls (actually, one of those 3 was 10-6, not 11-5). And 12-4, which I think the Patriots will finish, was good enough to win 4 others.

 

[farn]

Being "in it" every year IS awesome.

I think, though, that the defense is pretty much who we thought they were. I expected the O to deliver on several occasions (4th down, 2nd halves of losses...) and I expected them to keep us close vs the Saints.

They are good. I wish they carried the team to two more wins (maybe Colts and Denver) which would change the record to 9-2. A closer loss to the Saints would then seem less of a huge problem.

The defense IS a problem, but I expected some problems there in transition. I wish the O would've won us two more games I guess.