Measuring "Movement"

[mayoclinic]

Based on the numbers that I've looked at so far, some day 3 guys who stand out from an athletic perspective (most have whom have been discussed):

- RB Tyler Gaffney (Stanford). 5' 11 1/2" 220#. Incomplete (no BP yet), but explosiveness probably in the 65-70 range; 17.0 mobility score is competitive with Matt Forte.

- WR Jeff Janis (Saginaw Valley St.). 6' 2 7/8" 219#. 67 explosiveness score for a WR is outstanding. Mobility of 16.54 rivals Brandin Cooks and Odell Beckham; the last big WR with that kind of mobility was Julio Jones.

- LB Jordan Tripp (Montana). 6' 2 3/4" 234#. Explosiveness of 69 is borderline elite. Mobility of 17.1 would be solid for a DB.

- LB Kevin Pierre-Louis (Boston College). 6' 1/2" 232#. Explosiveness of 77 and mobility score of 16.98 are both extraordinary. However he is in terms of his football skills, this is a freakishly athletic kid.

- DB Dontae Johnson (North Carolina St.). 6' 2 1/8" 200#. 17.07 mobility score for a DB with his size is exceptional.

 

[sircole]

- LB Kevin Pierre-Louis (Boston College). 6' 1/2" 232#. Explosiveness of 77 and mobility score of 16.98 are both extraordinary. However he is in terms of his football skills, this is a freakishly athletic kid.

I don't know anything about him, but is he fluid enough on the field to play the linebacker/safety hybrid position that Belichick seems to be seeking?

 

[manxman2601]

Based on the numbers that I've looked at so far, some day 3 guys who stand out from an athletic perspective (most have whom have been discussed):

- RB Tyler Gaffney (Stanford). 5' 11 1/2" 220#. Incomplete (no BP yet), but explosiveness probably in the 65-70 range; 17.0 mobility score is competitive with Matt Forte.

- WR Jeff Janis (Saginaw Valley St.). 6' 2 7/8" 219#. 67 explosiveness score for a WR is outstanding. Mobility of 16.54 rivals Brandin Cooks and Odell Beckham; the last big WR with that kind of mobility was Julio Jones.

- LB Jordan Tripp (Montana). 6' 2 3/4" 234#. Explosiveness of 69 is borderline elite. Mobility of 17.1 would be solid for a DB.

- LB Kevin Pierre-Louis (Boston College). 6' 1/2" 232#. Explosiveness of 77 and mobility score of 16.98 are both extraordinary. However he is in terms of his football skills, this is a freakishly athletic kid.

- DB Dontae Johnson (North Carolina St.). 6' 2 1/8" 200#. 17.07 mobility score for a DB with his size is exceptional.

I am all aboard the Kevin Pierre-Louis train. Potentially great later round value and a Jamie Collins clone in terms of playing style ( Collins is obviously bigger). Saw one game of Jordan Tripp and was a little less impressed. Some of that movement skill and explosion was evident and he had terrific range but KPL struck me as having better instincts. I see KPL as a WILL or SS whilst Tripp has the versatility to play all three positions as a LB. Both would be tremendous value and I think that both can be quality starters in time and would provide tremendous depth and special teams early. Finally, whilst I prefer KPL's tape to Tripp (bear in mind only one game of each), Tripp actually strikes me as being the more likely pick.

 

[mayoclinic]

Based on the numbers that I've looked at so far, some day 3 guys who stand out from an athletic perspective (most have whom have been discussed):

- RB Tyler Gaffney (Stanford). 5' 11 1/2" 220#. Incomplete (no BP yet), but explosiveness probably in the 65-70 range; 17.0 mobility score is competitive with Matt Forte.

- WR Jeff Janis (Saginaw Valley St.). 6' 2 7/8" 219#. 67 explosiveness score for a WR is outstanding. Mobility of 16.54 rivals Brandin Cooks and Odell Beckham; the last big WR with that kind of mobility was Julio Jones.

- LB Jordan Tripp (Montana). 6' 2 3/4" 234#. Explosiveness of 69 is borderline elite. Mobility of 17.1 would be solid for a DB.

- LB Kevin Pierre-Louis (Boston College). 6' 1/2" 232#. Explosiveness of 77 and mobility score of 16.98 are both extraordinary. However he is in terms of his football skills, this is a freakishly athletic kid.

- DB Dontae Johnson (North Carolina St.). 6' 2 1/8" 200#. 17.07 mobility score for a DB with his size is exceptional.

Given how deep this draft is, I could frankly be quite happy grabbing a lot of these guys day 3:

- Cut or restructure Vince Wilfork; cut Isaac Sapoaga and Adrian Wilson
- Re-sign Aqib Talib
- Re-sign LeGarrette Blount
- Re-sign Julian Edelman or sign a UFA WR like Sidney Rice
- Sign a UFA DE like Michael Johnson (fantasy: Greg Hardy - won't happen, but it would be unreal)
- Dream: trade Ryan Mallett and Stevan Ridley to Houston for #33

Draft:

- Trade #29 and 62 to Dallas for #16.

16. Aaron Donald, DT, Pittsburgh. Explosiveness score of 76, mobility score of 17.77 for a DT = unreal athleticism, plus tremendous motor, intelligence and combat skills.

- Trade 33 to Jacksonville for 39 and 102.
- Trade 39 to San Francisco for 56 and 77.

56. Austin Seferian-Jenkins, TE, Washington.

77. Best available interior OL: Joel Bitonio, Marcus Martin, Weston Richburg or Travis Swanson.

93. Justin Ellis, NT, Louisiana Tech. Ellis and Sealver Siliga would make a good young NT tandem.

102. Antone Exum, DB, Virginia Tech. SS conversion, would complement McCourty well. Can also play outside press-man CB.

4b. Jordan Tripp, LB, Montana. Versatile LB with the athleticism to play in space and cover and the explosiveness to come off the edge.

6a. Jeff Janis, WR, Saginaw Valley St. Big WR with elite movement skills. Needs to learn how to catch the ball.

6b. Dontae Johnson, DB, North Carolina. Big CB/S with excellent mobility.

6 (comp). Larry Webster, DE/TE, Bloomsburg. Move TE conversion with tremendous agility

7. Tyler Gaffney, RB, Stanford or Lorenzo Taliaferro, Coastal Carolina. Big RBs with good mobility to replace Stevan Ridley in a RBBC.

 

[Kontradiction]

Given how deep this draft is, I could frankly be quite happy grabbing a lot of these guys day 3:

- Cut Vince Wilfork
- Re-sign Aqib Talib
- Sign a UFA DE like Michael Johnson (fantasy: Greg Hardy - won't happen, but out would be unreal)
- Dream: trade Ryan Mallett and Stevan Ridley to Houston for #33

Draft:

- Trade #29 and 62 to Dallas for #16.

16. Aaron Donald, DT, Pittsburgh. Explosiveness score of 76, mobility score of 17.77 for a DT = unreal athleticism, plus tremendous motor, intelligence and combat skills.

- Trade 33 to Jacksonville for 39 and 102.
- Trade 39 to San Francisco for 56 and 77.

56. Austin Seferian-Jenkins, TE, Washington.

77. Best available interior OL: Joel Bitonio, Marcus Martin, Weston Richburg or Travis Swanson.

93. Justin Ellis, NT, Louisiana Tech.

102. Antone Exum, DB, Virginia Tech. SS conversion.

4b. Jordan Tripp, LB, Montana. Versatile LB with the athleticism to play in space and cover and the explosiveness to come off the edge.

6a. Jeff Janis, WR, Saginaw Valley St. Big WR with elite movement skills. Needs to learn how to catch the ball.

6b. Dontae Johnson, DB, North Carolina. Big CB/S with excellent mobility.

6 (comp). Larry Webster, DE/TE, Bloomsburg. Move TE conversion with tremendous agility

7. Tyler Gaffney, RB, Stanford or Lorenzo Taliaferro, Coastal Carolina. Big RBs with good mobility to replace Stevan Ridley in a RBBC.

I'd be very happy with that draft, but I have my doubts about ASJ lasting that long. Also, I'm not as high on Janis as you are. He's athletic, that's for sure. But this team had is fair share of issues with drops and the last thing they need is another athletic WR that drops the ball. I'd rather a less athletic big bodied WR with softer hands. Otherwise, very solid.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'd be very happy with that draft, but I have my doubts about ASJ lasting that long. Also, I'm not as high on Janis as you are. He's athletic, that's for sure. But this team had is fair share of issues with drops and the last thing they need is another athletic WR that drops the ball. I'd rather a less athletic big bodied WR with softer hands. Otherwise, very solid.

I think that one of ASJ (injury and off-field issues), Troy Niklas (concussion issues) and Jace Amaro (didn't run well at the Combine) will slip.

I get your point about Janis. You could be right. OTOH, he would be drafted as a developmental prospect, and wouldn't be expected to be thrown into the fire.

 

[mayoclinic]

I was looking at a few measurables for "flex backs" - RBs with receiving skills and enough power to potentially be 3-down backs:

- Ray Rice (2008): 5'8" 199#; explosiveness = 39.5 VJ + 10'2" BJ + 23 BP = 72; mobility = 4.42 40 + 1.47 10-split + 4.20 SS + 6.65 3C = 16.74 (elite for a WR/CB).
- Matt Forte (2008): 6'2" 217#; 33 VJ + 9'10" BJ + 23 BP = 65 (good but not elite); 4.44 40 + 1.49 10-split + 4.23 SS + 6.84 3C = 17 (borderline excellent for a WR/CB, and exceptional for a 217# RB).
- Shane Vereen (2011): 5' 10 1/4" 210#; explosiveness = 34 VJ + 9'7" BJ + 31 BP = 74 (elite); mobility = 4.49 40 + 1.56 10-split + 4.28 SS + 6.95 3C = 17.28 (good but not elite for a WR/CB).
- Doug Martin (2012): 5' 9 1/4" 223#; 36 VJ + 10 BJ + 28 BP = 74 (elite); mobility = 4.46 40 + 1.60 10-split + 4.16 SS + 6.79 3C (borderline excellent for a WR/CB, and extraordinary for a 223# RB).
- Bishop Sankey (2014): 5' 9 1/2" 209#; explosiveness = 35.5 VJ + 10'6" BJ + 26 BP = 71 (elite); mobility = 4.47 40 + 1.59 10-split + 4.0 SS + 6.75 3C = 16.81 (borderline elite for a WR/CB).

One sleeper of note:

- Tyler Gaffney (2014): 5' 11 1/2" 220#; explosiveness = no BP, but 36.5 VJ and 9'8" BJ put him likely in the 65-70 range unless he struggles with the bench press; mobility = 4.49 40 + 1.53 10-split + 4.18 SS + 6.78 3C = 16.98. Those numbers suggest that Gaffney has the athleticism to be another Matt Forte kind of player. Obviously, it says nothing about his receiving skills.

Out of curiosity, I wondered what Trent Richardson's numbers were like. He never did the vertical or broad jump, so we don't know what his explosiveness was, but I'm guess it wasn't elite based on his play in the NFL; and he never did the short shuttle or 3-cone, so we don't know much about his lateral movement. I think this is a good example of where it might be useful to check some quick numbers to see if they are consistent with what you think you see on film, and perhaps be cautious of buying high on a guy who you haven't checked out very fully.

One interesting Combine comparison:

- Bishop Sankey: 5' 9 1/2" 209#; explosiveness = 35.5 VJ + 10'6" BJ + 26 BP = 71 (elite); mobility = 4.47 40 + 1.59 10-split + 4.0 SS + 6.75 3C = 16.81 (borderline elite for a WR/CB).

- Jerick Mackinnon: 5' 8 7/8" 209#; explosiveness = 40.5 VJ + 11' BJ + 32 BP = 83 (unreal); mobility = 4.41 40 + 1.46 10-split + 4.12 SS + 6.73 3C = 16.82 (borderline elite for a WR/CB).

 

[Kontradiction]

I think that one of ASJ (injury and off-field issues), Troy Niklas (concussion issues) and Jace Amaro (didn't run well at the Combine) will slip.

Yeah. I think it will probably be Amaro, if anyone. I would be fine with Niklas as a back up option to ASJ and Amaro anywhere but the first round, though.

I get your point about Janis. You could be right. OTOH, he would be drafted as a developmental prospect, and wouldn't be expected to be thrown into the fire.

I hear you. I just have my concern with drops is all. If he can fix it, I didn't see any issues within his route running that would throw me off. But the drops are a big mark against his game. Then again, it's not like the team would be using premium draft capital for him.

 

[mayoclinic]

Yeah. I think it will probably be Amaro, if anyone. I would be fine with Niklas as a back up option to ASJ and Amaro anywhere but the first round, though.

I think that Amaro is mis-understood by many as a prospect. He was used mainly as a WR by Texas Tech and people looked at him as providing the skill set that Colt Lyerla had. But he's quite different. He's 265#, and he's quite capable of blocking, even though that part of his game wasn't particularly featured in college. He runs mostly underneath routes (over 75% of his receptions were within 10 yards of the LOS). Matt Waldman compares him to Jason Witten in a very detailed analysis, and I think that's a good comparison:

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | Futures: Texas Tech TE Jace Amaro

I'd be quite happy if Amaro fell to 62.

 

[sircole]

One interesting Combine comparison:

- Jerick Mackinnon: 5' 8 7/8" 209#; explosiveness = 40.5 VJ + 11' BJ + 32 BP = 83 (unreal); mobility = 4.41 40 + 1.46 10-split + 4.12 SS + 6.73 3C = 16.82 (borderline elite for a WR/CB).

Mckinnon is more interesting to me as a wide receiver convert than a running back. Because Georgia Southern ran a flex bone offense, his route-running skills and maybe catching are going to be rudimentary.

With Seattle winning the super bowl and this being a copycat league, there is going to be an uptick of bigger defensive backs coming into the league. However I wonder if a potential mismatch matchup (Steve Smith v Aquib Talib) will be shorter, powerful receivers playing outside against these taller conerbacks.

Someone like Mckinnon could be a Steve Smith type of convert that could exploit some of these matchups.

 

[mayoclinic]

Mckinnon is more interesting to me as a wide receiver convert than a running back. Because Georgia Southern ran a flex bone offense, his route-running skills and maybe catching are going to be rudimentary.

With Seattle winning the super bowl and this being a copycat league, there is going to be an uptick of bigger defensive backs coming into the league. However I wonder if a potential mismatch matchup (Steve Smith v Aquib Talib) will be shorter, powerful receivers playing outside against these taller conerbacks.

Someone like Mckinnon could be a Steve Smith type of convert that could exploit some of these matchups.

I agree with your premise, but I think Mackinnon could be a "flex back" like Shane Vereen who lines up at WR quite a bit.

 

[sircole]

Yeah, I just want our perfect "flex back" to be someone as physical as David Givens with Shane Vereen skills to wear out the cornerback just like what happened to us in the panthers game.

 

[Coach42]

Jason Verrett out of TCU 4.38, 1.47, 4.00, 6.67 total 16.53. I'd take a chance on this kid.

 

[manxman2601]

BYu's safety Daniel Sorensen is a name that we might want to consider more. He has a 16.68 rating which is borderline elite movement skills and that's despite a 4.67 40. He went 6.47 on the 3 cone and 3.95 on the shorts shuttle. All that on a 6'1", 205lb frame.

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

BYu's safety Daniel Sorensen is a name that we might want to consider more. He has a 16.68 rating which is borderline elite movement skills and that's despite a 4.67 40. He went 6.47 on the 3 cone and 3.95 on the shorts shuttle. All that on a 6'1", 205lb frame.

How about Mo Alexander? Maurice Alexander | Utah State, SS : 2014 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

Ranked as number 460 at CBS.

 

[manxman2601]

How about Mo Alexander? Maurice Alexander*|*Utah State,*SS*:*2014 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

Ranked as number 460 at CBS.

Haven't watched him but he had the slowest SS amongst DBs at the combine. Admittedly he was also the biggest DB at the combine at 220lb. I'm not wowed by his numbers though.

Having said that, 4.54 40 and 38" vert at 220 aren't bad.

 

[manxman2601]

BYu's safety Daniel Sorensen is a name that we might want to consider more. He has a 16.68 rating which is borderline elite movement skills and that's despite a 4.67 40. He went 6.47 on the 3 cone and 3.95 on the shorts shuttle. All that on a 6'1", 205lb frame.

Only four WRs put up a better SS time than Sorensen and none put up a better 3 cone.

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

Haven't watched him but he had the slowest SS amongst DBs at the combine. Admittedly he was also the biggest DB at the combine at 220lb. I'm not wowed by his numbers though.

Having said that, 4.54 40 and 38" vert at 220 aren't bad.

He has good numbers for his size. I prefer his numbers to Exum's.

I know you don't care about size at safety, but 220 pounds means a lot to me.

 

[mayoclinic]

Doug Kyed reviewed some of the potential FA alternatives at CB for the Patriots:

Aqib Talib, Alterraun Verner Among Top Free Agent Cornerbacks For Patriots | New England Patriots | NESN.com

One interesting name that came up: Minnesota CB Chris Cook. Cook has great size at 6'2" 212# and had nearly identical movement measurables to Aqib Talib:

- Talib: 6' 0 3/4" 202#; explosiveness = 38 VJ + 10'11" BJ + 10 BP = 58-59 (almost identical lower body explosiveness, not much better on the BP); mobility = 4.42 40 + 1.47 10-split + 4.25 SS + 6.82 3C = 16.96

- Cook: 6'2 212#; explosiveness = 38" VJ + 11' BJ + 7 BP = 56 (great lower body explosiveness, terrible upper body strength); mobility = 4.46 40 + 1.49 10-split + 4.15 SS + 6.85 3C = 16.94.

Almost identical raw athleticism, including near elite movement skills for big CBs. The knock on Cook coming out was that he wasn't that physical, and he has had a decent but not exceptional 4 year career to date. But he's be an interesting lower-cost alternative, at least athletically speaking.

 

[mayoclinic]

Doug Kyed reviewed some of the potential FA alternatives at CB for the Patriots:

Aqib Talib, Alterraun Verner Among Top Free Agent Cornerbacks For Patriots | New England Patriots | NESN.com

One interesting name that came up: Minnesota CB Chris Cook. Cook has great size at 6'2" 212# and had nearly identical movement measurables to Aqib Talib:

- Talib: 6' 0 3/4" 202#; explosiveness = 38 VJ + 10'11" BJ + 10 BP = 58-59 (almost identical lower body explosiveness, not much better on the BP); mobility = 4.42 40 + 1.47 10-split + 4.25 SS + 6.82 3C = 16.96

- Cook: 6'2 212#; explosiveness = 38" VJ + 11' BJ + 7 BP = 56 (great lower body explosiveness, terrible upper body strength); mobility = 4.46 40 + 1.49 10-split + 4.15 SS + 6.85 3C = 16.94.

Almost identical raw athleticism, including near elite movement skills for big CBs. The knock on Cook coming out was that he wasn't that physical, and he has had a decent but not exceptional 4 year career to date. But he's be an interesting lower-cost alternative, at least athletically speaking.

Cook also played safety at Virginia, and was considered a CB/S 'tweener coming out in 2010. I wonder whether he might make a good safety conversion. Sounds a bit like Antone Exum this year, though Exum sounds like he's more physical and a better tackler.