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Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Wolfpack, Jun 28, 2010.

  1. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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  2. JackBauer

    JackBauer On the Roster

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    Are you really citing this accident as an argument against the deep water moratorium?
  3. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #11 Jersey

    If so, it truly boggles the mind, doesn't it?

    edited to add:

    On second thought, maybe he's referring to the milk thing.

    One can only hope.

    [edited to add a second time]

    Nope, the milk thing doesn't make sense. Just because someone's gone off the deep end and proposed declaring a milk spill "hazardous," it doesn't compare with stopping over-the-road fuel hauling. An oil spill on a road is already considered hazardous. There is no comparison and similarities are a real reach.

    I eagerly await clarification from the thread starter.
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
  4. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    I am taking the logic presented by those who support stopping deep well drilling and applying it to this case.

    There are people who believe we had a bad oil spillin the gulf, therefore we should stop offshore drilling. Now we've had a bad oil spill on I-95. Extending that same logic, we should stop trucker transport of oil, shouldn't we?
  5. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #11 Jersey

    Dear Jack:

    Do you want to take this one or should I?

    Love,

    Mrs.PFnV

    P.S. Or is it just so self-evident that we should ignore it all together since I doubt there is a soul here, no matter how conservative, how liberal, how smart, how dumb, how well-read or how illiterate who doesn't "get" the difference between an oil spill with a pre-determined resolution, a pre-written clean up plan which is understood by all involved and has been proven to work, a finate amount of spillage, no known or unknown long term consequences, and no immediate or ongoing loss of human or animal life and a hole in the ocean floor through which millions of gallons of oil are flowing virtually unchecked with numerous dangerous long term consequences to animals, humans and the enviornment because no one really knows how to fix it?
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
  6. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Gee, I didn't realize the Gulf Oil spill wasn't finite. All this time of being told our oil resources were limited, and it turns out that there is an infinite supply right off the Gulf shore!

    I don't think you really grasp the concept of the finite versus the infinite.

    And here's another thing you don't understand: The Gulf Oil Spill is literally a once-a-lifetime event off our own shores. But truckers get into accidents and spill oil all the time. 11,000 gallons here, 11,000 gallons there and sooner or later we're talking about some serious accumulation. So for you to say there are no consequences to such accidents is pretty darn hypocritical (and ignorant) to say the least.
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
  7. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    I'll give you the finite point. I understood what she meant, but yes finite technically was a poor word.

    I'd also argue that during the first week alone there was probably more oil spilled in the Gulf than there will ever be spilled on land via trucks. It will also have a far larger environmental impact.
  8. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Do you have any facts to support that assertion, or are you just pulling it out of think air?
  9. JackBauer

    JackBauer On the Roster

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    Doesn't even matter. A concentrated spill in a marine environment is always going to be worse than isolated spills on roadways.
  10. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #11 Jersey

    As it stands now, we have no idea of how much oil is underneath the sea, do we? Or how much more will be spewed into the ocean before the well can be capped. It shows no signs of slowing after more than two months, does it?

    I'll admit "finite" was a bad choice of words - Hyperbole, exaggeration - almost (but not quite) like saying a person who was accused without proof of touching someone's body part is a rapist - I'm sure you'll understand and excuse me.

    What I'd like to know is how you know the Gulf Oil Spill is "literally a once-in-a-lifetime" event - especially when all of the other oil companies admit they, too, have no plan for dealing with such an occurance should it happen to them.

    As for the "serious accumulation" of oil spilled from tanker trucks - you're not serious, are you? That oil stays in one place, tankers are restricted as to where they can travel which minimizes consequences, fire departments and hazmat teams respond immediately with the proper clean-up tools and generally it's gone within hours - a day at most. If it's in a populated area, people are removed to a safe distance, those working with it are given proper ventilation suits, they're trained in the use of breathing apperatus and there's little danger to anyone or anything.

    Anywhere from 67 million to 127 million gallons of oil have been spewed into the ocean in the last two months. Do you have any idea of how many 11,000 gallons here, 11,000 gallons there that is?

    I'll tell you how many - 11,545 of them at the high side of the equation and 6,090 at the low end. Do you really think if there were 96 to 183 1/4 tankers overturning on the highways every day (without even taking into account that no one knew how to clean it up or stop it) there wouldn't dam well be a moratorium on transporting that way?

    Give me a break.
  11. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Why would you say that? Ignoring the fact that, like, ya know, last time I checked, people live on land, there's no wildlife on land? No marshes, no wetlands, no nothing that could potentially be damaged by 11,000 gallons of oil just gushing through?
  12. JackBauer

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    For the simple fact that oil is easier to retrieve on a road than it is diluted in an aquatic environment.

    Obviously it's going to cause damage, but compared to probably the worst environmental disaster in US history, and one that was completely avoidable... no contest.
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
  13. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #11 Jersey

    If you think 11,000 gallons which spilled from a tanker-truck is "gushing" what do you call 1.5 to 2.5 MILLIONS of gallons per day?

    Researchers have estimated that between 35,000 barrels (about 1.5 million gallons) and 60,000 barrels (about 2.5 million gallons) of oil are gushing into the ocean every day.

    Relief well close to Gulf oil spill source - CNN.com

    That's 104,166 to 205,000 gallons per hour - or roughly 10 to 20 times your one tank overturning - and not just once but repeatedly for the last 60 odd days.

    Definitely the same amount of danger to people and the enviornment, definitely.
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
  14. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #11 Jersey

    Not in the middle of a hazmat transport approved highway, no.

    I don't feel like looking because I don't think it exists, but if you're serious, maybe you'd like to find me a marsh or a wetland with a hazmat approved highway running through it.
  15. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    Sp when 11,000 gallons of oil seep into the ground, it's easily to retrieve than when it is out at sea? :confused: As Butch Sterns says, I'm not so sure about that.
    All accidents are "completely avoidable" with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. But they are an unavoidable fact of life and they are here to stay.
  16. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    What part of "these tanker truck accidents happen all the time" did you not understand? Obviously 100 million gallons is worse than 10,000. But the 100 million gallon accident is literally a once-a-lifetime accident. How many countless tanker trucks have overturned on the highways of America over the past 50 years? I did a Google search and without even trying, I found 15 such examples over the last month alone (most not as big as the Foxborough spill but each representing thousands and thousands of gallons).

    So if I found 15 examples without even trying then I'll gladly wager at least twice that amount took place. Multiply that by about 25 years and you have just about the same amount of oil being dumped on our land as went into the Gulf (depending on which estimates we believe).

    So now what were you saying about the amount of tanker truck spills being not even remotely comparable to the Gulf spill?
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
  17. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Banned

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    You've obviously never driven on 95, 93, 495 or 128. You go through and over all sorts of waterways. That is, unless you don't consider the Merrimack River to be a waterway.
  18. wistahpatsfan

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    This is yet another diversion from what the real hazards are in relation to the mining and burning of fossil fuels. It's a straw man and it's a classic tactic of the unthinking drones of their corporate masters. They throw these scenarios that create false comparisons of unrelated or insufficiently related events or situations as fodder for their soldiers who then take it and run through the media, blogs and message boards. Hopefully, for the corporate PR folks, enough of this crap will disseminate down into the lazy, incurious population and the gutless politicians will react accordingly.

    This tactic is being used to blame environmentalists for the oil spill because they are the ones who forces drilling in deep water, which is nowhere near the full truth of the Big Picture of American energy consumption dynamics. A lie, told often enough, will eventually be seen as the truth. This linear thought process, disguised as some sort of pseudo-intellectual Socratic method of debate, is typical of those with simplistic views of very complex systems.

    Bad comparisons are dangerous...just ask the turkeys that Les Nessman dropped out of the helicopter.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2010
  19. Harry Boy

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    Registered Democrats should be forbidden to purchase Gasoline, Engine Oil, Heating Oil or any other type of oil anywhere in America if they are caught doing so they should imediatelly be sent to prison for 25 years, no parole.
  20. TBradyOwnsYou

    TBradyOwnsYou Rookie

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    From: http://www.epa.gov/OEM/docs/oil/edu/oilspill_book/chap2.pdf
    Page 4 (to help deminstrate to you the difficulty of cleaning up oil in water)

    To compare to spilling on land, do this experiment that I am inventing as I type this.
    Take 5 drops of motor oil (the same amount as used above) and spill it on to a pile of dirt.
    Now dig up the dirt with a shovel and put it in a garbage bag.
    Take the bag to an appropriate disposal area.
    Which one was easier to clean up?

    100,000,000 once in a lifetime.
    10,000 gallons per "countless truck spills"
    100,000,000/10,000=10,000(number of times it would have to happen to be equal)
    Average human lifetime=67.2 years (we'll say 100 for ease)
    10,000/100=100(number of times it would have to happen per year in a century to equal the once a lifetime)
    So using grossly over-estimated numbers, we would need (100/365) one 10,000 gallon oil spill every 3.65 days for a century to be equivilent to the oil spill in the Gulf.
    You "easily found" 15 spills in the last month, and though they were smaller than 10k, you estimate at least double happen, so I'll say that your estimates agree with the numbers I provided above (assuming by 25 years you meant 100).

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