McShay mocks Graham to the Patriots (link)

Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by upstater1, Feb 10, 2010.

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  1. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

    Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

    This is according to Reiss.

    One concern, I guess, is that Graham may not be big enough.

    This got me to wondering about the changes in the game, the emphasis on passing, away from running the ball. Is Belichick's ideal still a big OLB? That was mainly to set the edge against a running game.

    But that might not be the blueprint for Belichick anymore given all the changes we've seen since Polian went insane.
  2. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks Supporter Supporter

    Bill's ideal OLB profile is going to be consistent here despite the passing game emphasis, or I should say rather 'because' of that emphasis.

    Recall that he himself does not view sacks as the ultimate measure of a pressure defense's effectiveness, if we could put it into one or two words his philosophy would narrow down to two primary measures: turnovers and field position. You create turnovers by pressuring the QB into mistakes - interceptions, fumbles, and incompletions. These lead to field position. 6'6" clogs passing lanes, disrupting the QB's view and tipping the ball. 6'1" speed rushers can create strips sacks and flush the QB into other rushers for sacks/turnovers, but they aren't the ideal.

    McShay is correct that Graham possesses many of the qualities Bill likes in his edge rushers, but Graham is also a pure speed rusher with limited inside moves and will be ranked higher by teams like Pittsburgh and San Diego. He's also a "conversion" project, which limits how he can be used for a couple years and doesn't argue for his final NE ranking making him a round one value.

    Bill appears to be trying to improve the D-line's ability to collapse the pocket, hence Pryor in last year's draft and the increased use of Mike Wright on passing downs - both are excellent at flattening the pocket. Jarvis Green was a stud at this, but injuries have slowed him the past couple years, I don't know how much he has in the tank now at 31. Ty Warren doesn't do too badly either, when healthy. Vince Wilfork is another good pocket disrupter, though I thought he was carrying too much weight last season. Looking at this draft class for 6'4" 260+ fellows who can pressure the QB and collapse the pocket I can find several starting with Dunlap, Morgan, Odrick, Wooton, Pierre-Paul, Austen, Carrington, Misi...
  3. patsfaninpa

    patsfaninpa In the Starting Line-Up

    I don't like to read too much into the combine. Especially when you have 2-3 years of film on a guy. But, I'd like to see Graham run. See what kind of agility he has and explosion in that 20-30 yard range. Be curious to see his split in the 40 and cone drill. His lower body looks a little blocky/bulky to me. But, the kid plays very well.
  4. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #12 Jersey

    With edge speed rushers, the 40 time is NOT as important as the suddenness of the first step. The corner is won on the strength of that first step.
  5. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #12 Jersey

  6. borg

    borg In the Starting Line-Up

    I'm warming up to Graham...take a look at his 2009 production. Note his stats against bowl participants.

    recorded a career-best 64 tackles, 26 tackles for loss, 10.5 sacks, two forced fumbles, one fumble recovery and two PBUs ... led the nation in tackles for loss and was 14th nationally in sacks ... scored one touchdown on a punt return and blocked two punts ... contributed one tackle and one PBU vs. Western Michigan (Sept. 5) ... recorded three tackles and two TFL vs. Notre Dame (Sept. 25) ... posted four tackles, one TFL, one PBU and a fumble recovery vs. Eastern Michigan (Sept. 19) ... made six tackles and 1.5 TFLs vs. Indiana (Sept. 26) ... posted his first sack of the season, two TFLs, four total tackles and forced one fumble at Michigan State (Oct. 3) ... recorded a career-best nine tackles, three-and-a-half TFLs and two sacks at Iowa (Oct. 10) ... registered three tackles, two sacks and returned a blocked punt two yards for his first-career touchdown vs. Delaware State (Oct. 17) ... recorded seven tackles, 3.5 TFLs and 0.5 sacks vs. Penn State (Oct. 24) ... earned his first career punt block and recovered the ball in the third quarter against PSU ... posted seven tackles, 1.5 TFLs, one sack and blocked a punt for the second straight week at Illinois (Oct. 31) ... made two solo tackles vs. Purdue (Nov. 7) ... registered a career-best 11 tackles, four TFLs and two sacks at Wisconsin (Nov. 14) ... forced a fumble on a sack that was returned by Ryan Van Bergen for a touchdown against the Badgers ... set a career high with five tackles for loss vs. Ohio State (Nov. 21) ... posted seven stops and two sacks against the Buckeyes.

    Graham Video
    YouTube - DE Brandon Graham Highlights 2009 Michigan
    How about ILB/rover for this guy
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  7. Marqui

    Marqui In the Starting Line-Up

    I've been sold on Graham to the Pats for a little while now.
  8. WesWelker83

    WesWelker83 Practice Squad Player

    It seems to me like every year BB looks for the perfect OLB while he misses out on guys who have slight flaws but are still excellent players. I have been reading every single year since 2006 about the how the Patriots are getting long in the tooth at LB and we never bothered to address the position until 2008 with Mayo, Crable, and Guyton. In 2007 we passed on Lamaar Woodley twice in the first round! I know we ended up getting Mayo by trading the 2nd pick but I would still rather have Woodley. I know Pitt plays a different 3-4 then we do (1 gap attacking scheme vs 2 gap reacting scheme ) but Woodley would fit in any scheme in the league! The guy is one of the best OLBs in the league and he is a double digit sack guy every year. I feel like we missed out on Woodley because he didnt have ideal measureables (too short, conversion guy from DE, no prior history dropping into coverage). I feel if we don't draft Graham we will be making this same mistake again. The guy definitely is more then a speed rusher. I have seen him bull rush OT's into the QB numerous times at Michigan in the past two years. This guy is also excellent vs the run and he can easily be very effective setting the edge despite his ideal arm length. Graham is also very good using his hands and he has excellent technique like Elvis Dumerville which can make up for a lack of ideal measureables. The only weakness I see with Graham is his lack of previous history dropping into coverage but I would wait until the combine to judge him here. I also think Wooten and Odrick are only 3-4 five technique DEs. I like both of them a lot for the Patriots at 22 and if BB thinks they are better then I would take them but they will play totally different positions. Derrick Morgan is clearly a 4-3 DE and doesn't fit in our scheme. Pierre Paul is very raw and most likely wont be around when we pick anyways. Dunlap is a bust waiting to happen. The guy is very inconsistent game to game. He was awful in that Tennessee game. He is also lazy, has a poor work ethic, and takes plays off. This guy is an anti BB type of player. He is a huge underachiever who doesnt play up to his measurables, isnt strong at the point of attack and isnt the athlete you would think he would be. Austin Lane I like but I view him as more of a weakside OLB and he doesnt even have a first or second round grade. Carrington's motor runs hot and cold but he has good measurables. I don't know enough about him but I think we take a look at him 2nd round. Misi looks like a great athlete but the production isnt there and hes definitely a project. I wouldn't take him before the third. Graham is better then all these players IMO!

    Unless we go out and sign a Julius Peppers or Aaron Kampman then I don't see a better guy next year that could play the elephant position for us. I am not fine with some combination of Tully Banta Cain, Derrick Burgess, and Adalius Thomas starting at OLB next year! These three guys didn't get the job done last year! Banta Cain had 10 sacks for the year but he had 5 vs Buffalo and disappeared in big games (Indy, NO, and Balt). Thomas was a huge disappointment and was benched for a few games. Burgess was an awful trade (3rd and 5th we gave up :eek:) and he only had a few sacks which he ended up getting towards the end of the year vs weak opponents.

    Brandon Graham is the best 3-4 OLB in this draft and he is Lamaar Woodley all over again. The question is did BB learn from his previous mistake of passing on Woodley?
  9. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks Supporter Supporter

    My ability to get inside Bill's head has been pretty limited. He's stated his physical preferences, what he was looking at when he drafted other players we can only guess - he had Woodley graded well below the projected Top 15 pick he was anticipating from SF for #28, such is life. If Crable could stay healthy maybe it wouldn't look so bad, then again maybe it would. Until he does change how he drafts round one Graham doesn't appear to be a strong option.

    At this point in the pre-draft process I look at NT & DE as BB's most likely choices. Dan Williams, Jared Odrick, and Cory Wooton look like the players most likely to fit what BB wants from his DL in terms of playing the run well and be effective at pushing the pocket. Unlike Graham, these three wouldn't be playing a significantly new role.

    More likely Bill trades down to get some more ammo, but if he does pick I'd bet on it being a 3-4 DL.
  10. jczxohn1

    jczxohn1 Supporter Supporter

    We never saw Roosevelt Colvin at his best, due to his hip injury, which limited that all-important first step.
  11. upstater1

    upstater1 Pro Bowl Player

    Pats draft party video: Analysts talk pick 22 - Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

    Out of all the guys talked about for the Patriots at the draft party, Graham outshines everyone by a mile. The kid knows how to rush a QB, angle his body for leverage, and burst.

    The clips on Kindle do not reveal a great deal about his moves so it's unfair to judge him other than saying he's fast and he hits hard.

    Graham shines in this video. It looks like the kid is a future star in the NFL.
  12. I Augustus

    I Augustus On the Game Day Roster

    If BB thinks that Brandon Graham is a starter he will be drafted by NE.
    First thing BB looks at is productivity . After that coachability,durability,heart,toughnes.Mel Kiper and his mesmerism with measurables be damned.
  13. RodThePat

    RodThePat In the Starting Line-Up

    Except for the fact he has publicly stated that "it's hard to find that 6'4, 4.60 forty guy" when asked about his reasons for not drafting OLB's high.
  14. patsinthesnow

    patsinthesnow Supporter Supporter

    #87 Jersey

    He's #3 on my preference chart for #22 based on who's available.

    1. Dez Bryant
    2. Jared Odrick
    3. Brandon Graham
    4. trade down
  15. I Augustus

    I Augustus On the Game Day Roster

    Pats still need an answer at OLB.If Shawn Crable can't find himself on the field( again ) and Adalius Thomas is a goner you need to draft a player like B.Graham to fill the void.He's a disruptive player,relentless pass rusher,good tackler,team captain etc.By your logic players like E.Dumervile,Zach Thomas or even Tedy Bruschi shouldn't be on the field because they lack perfect measurables.
  16. MaineMan

    MaineMan 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

    Moments later, the Jets drafted Vernon Gholston and the entire Patriots War Room erupted in howls of derisive laughter.
  17. jays52

    jays52 In the Starting Line-Up

    #91 Jersey

    Brandon Graham is a defensive end.
  18. MaineMan

    MaineMan 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

    Here's the thing. Because it's so hard to find that "6-4, 4.60 forty guy" who can rush a bit AND cover the run AND cover the pass, I'm thinking that BB may be in the process of shifting gears toward guys like TBC who can rush fairly well and set the edge when need be, but whose pass coverage isn't their strong suit. [Note: Many wise veterans on this board disagree that BB is moving this way at all.] IF that is the case, Graham would be a great fit. He's probably out of reach, though, and I seriously doubt that BB trades UP to get him - especially because there are a number of guys who are close enough to Graham who'll be available much later than #15. However, if enough teams take their stupid pills that day and Graham (incredibly) slips to #22 . . . .
  19. SeauOUCH

    SeauOUCH On the Game Day Roster

    This guy is my binky big time, 6'5+ OLB that have the speed BB likes ( & can actually play ) come around like once per 10 years ( & go top 10 ). I really don't think he is gonna last till #22 but if he does & we pass I'm gonna be pissed.

    This guy is gonna be DROY.
  20. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    #12 Jersey

    I can't see Graham going before #19. If I am Tom Dimitroff and Graham falls to me at #19, I am jumping for joy and rush the card to the podium.
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