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McCain told "Cross Story" in 1971

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PonyExpress, Aug 18, 2008.

  1. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress Rookie

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    There has been an accusation by some on the left that McCain "plagiarized" from Solzehnitsyn the touching story about a prison guard drawing a cross in the dirt of his Hanoi Hilton cell.

    The Solzehnitsyn account was published in 1973.

    Turns out McCain's fellow prisoner, Orson Swindle, recounts McCain telling him that story in 1971 while they were together in a holding cell in Hanoi:

    http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OGZiOGI3OTQ3YWMxYzFhM2UyYTk3NzJiYTM4MGNiY2U=

    Oops.
  2. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wasn't aware that this was a controversy, unless it was one of those right wing sources that said it was a left wing problem.. without regard, the below is telling, nuf said...


  3. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey


    These guys are just warming up GJ, as my avatar liked to say :disagreement: "there will be blood" :disagreement:
  4. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    These campaign is getting brutal, what are the issues again???
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No reason to trust this Swindle guy anymore than the righties trusted the guys who were with Kerry on the swiftboat. Clearly, McCain is lying about this just as he lied in his book about the the affair he had while still married to his first wife. Also, it's interesting that McCain never told this poignant story until he decided to run for President, and in 2000 apparently told the story, but that it happened to someone else.

    http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/08/the-mccain-cross-in-the-dirt-s.html
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2008
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Is Obama a Muslim? Is he an American citizen? Is he friends with terrorists? Does he have a secret middle name of Mohamed? Did he and his wife give each other the terrorist high five? Does he have a messiah complex? Is he really an airhead like Paris Hilton and Britney Spears? Geez, GJAJ15, I'm surprised I have to tell you the issues!
  7. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    And how exactly do you know this ? Seriously, man, I'm starting to hate you. You are so partisan it's beyond nauseating.
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Then you sort of know how I felt during the swiftboat era, but honestly I never hated anyone. I look at politics as a game. I think that's what you should do too. It doesn't mean we can't argue seriously when we talk issues, but we can also play the game, as was done here with Ayers, Obama's religion, Hagee, both candidate's birth certificate's and so on. This kind of crap really is a game and nothing more, and for the moment advantage Obama. I hope you can see that.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2008
  9. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    This is a political forum, not solitare. Sheesh. why would anyone "play a game" in here, like the pols do? That's retarded. We come here to discuss politics and assorted other topical issues. If you come here to lie, or tell have truths purposely, then why bother? :confused:
  10. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    I guess making things up is fine today. I just watched 15 minutes of Hardball as the Democrat twice referred to McCain knowing the questions ahead of time (hint - he didn't) and the guest host didn't stop him. It's truely pitiful.
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If you really don't see the many ways you do, I'm awfully surprised. In fact, almost all of us do it and maybe tomorrow I'll go through the trouble of finding examples.
  12. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The word on McCain is that when he talks to much he puts himself in danger ... I never watched him much and now that I am I can see where this is coming from. Obama tends to do this also but he always uses family members which is much safer as it's easier to keep them away from the hacks.
  13. PatsFanInVa

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    So a good friend from the time said he "vaguely remembers" McCain telling this story, "among others", after 37 years, and in the heat of a presidential campaign in which McCain is apparently caught red-handed appropriating someone else's experience?

    I suppose it's possible. I'll be fairer to McCain than we would be to Obama or (God help us) Kerry. First let's look at the accounts themselves, McCain first:

    The Solzhenitsyn story is recounted in a 1997 story, "The Sign of the Cross", by one Luke Veronis:

    Veronis' story, of course, is a retelling from Solzhenitsyn's own 1973 memoir, The Gulag Archipelago.

    McCain chose not to tell his cross story in this 12,000 word account in US News and World Report in 1973:
    http://www.usnews.com/articles/news...r-of-war-a-first-person-account.html?PageNr=1

    McCain tells a story on page 9 about a message he wanted to deliver on Christmas, and he has a story on page 13 about not being allowed to worship on Christmas, and then he has another story about confronting the Vietnamese about him and his men holding church services. He has many mentions of faith, in a first-person account of his treatment in Vietnam, and despite the fact that he'll "never forget the story," he did not think it needed to be mentioned in this exhaustive first account of his captivity. He neglected to tell or write this story, in fact, until his 1999 book, written for the 2000 Presidential Campaign.

    In 1999, running for the presidency, I take it that McCain realized something very similar had happened to him, although he never wrote or spoke publicly about it until shortly after the 1997 Veronis account. I do not have Faith of My Fathers. I understand that McCain, in the 1999 account, was still telling the story in the third person, as he did on the campaign trail in Virginia in 2000, when he spoke of a "scared American POW," not "I".

    By the time of this 2007 campaign commercial, he loses such modesty and tells the story in the first person. He evidently also considers it artistic license that the cross is depicted being drawn with a stick (consistent with the Solzhenitsyn story), not, as he claimed in the Saddleback version, a sandal:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WTu...kos.com/story/2008/8/17/122230/161/239/569299

    But again, it is possible that these two events happened to these two men. It is possible that while Solzhenitsyn told his story in 1973, McCain chose to wait twenty-six years and to first tell his cross story in 1999, in the midst of a presidential campaign, just two years after Solzhenitsyn's story is recounted in Communion. There may simply be no reason for the 26-year lag between the occurence and the telling, although McCain tells 12,000 words in 1973 and a good many between that date and 1999, regarding his captivity at the hands of the Vietnamese. It's also possible that McCain, out of modesty followed by the brashness necessitated by our crass electroral process, drifted from third person to first person in telling the story. It's possible that McCain thought the 2007 ad was better visually with a stick -- whcih coincidentally is the instrument used in the Solzhenitsyn story.

    God works in mysterious ways, after all.

    However, in this particular case, the Almighty seems to have seen to it that McCain's story would appear the work of a plagiarist: something that could have happened to him, but in fact happened to somebody else entirely.

    And that's a pity, since if all these coincidences did, in fact, occur - unlikely though that may be - the good Senator indeed lived a rich, rewarding moment of faith in those bleak days.

    But the facts suggest that however many such touching moments he lived, none of them made as perfect a story as that singular moment lived by Solzhenitsyn.

    But the whole forum was about faith, after all. If you have faith, you can believe him. It's not the literal truth of the story that really matters, right?

    Wait, that's the bible. Never mind.

    PFnV
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2008
  14. PatsFanInVa

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    Regarding McCain's "Cone of Silence":

    http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12594.html

    Unless the U.S. Secret Service coated the interior of the limo with lead, or otherwise shielded McCain from cell conversations, radio, television, or other broadcasts, it is unlikely that he was, in fact, insulated from the goings-on while en route.

    The green room with no broadcast feed, I take it, is the "cone of silence" the pastor talked about. But in that the Senator was en route in a motorcade for at least part of the Obama segment, it strikes me as odd that McCain's team is lambasting NBC's reporters for reporting that Obama's people are questioning Pastor Warren's patently false "cone of silence" claim.

    I have no idea whether Pastor Warren knew McCain was not in a cone of silence the whole time.

    The trouble is, he wasn't. He was in a motorcade part of the time, according to his own aides.

    The right wing reaction? Throw a hissy fit at the media for reporting the facts on the ground.

    PFnV
  15. BelichickFan

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    You actually thought he was sitting in a cone ? :singing:

    Both sides were given advance concepts of questions - McCain prepared better while Obamy was on vacation. Deal with it.
  16. patsfan13

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    I believe the objection is not that MCCain could possible have heard the questions, it is that the story was reported that he had heard Warren with BO,
    Funny thing is that no matter what MCPain could have heard it doesn't explain BO's stuttering cluelessness.
  17. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress Rookie

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    The swift boat veterans for truth were military veterans who served in Kerry's unit in Vietnam. They signed legal affidavits swearing to the truth of their statements.

    There is a difference between internet innuendo and a signed legal affidavit by a witness to an event.
  18. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    That's the funniest part - it's not like there was a surprise question : "who is the New England Patriots backup QB" - Obamy had trouble with when does a fetus get the rights of a person; well, duh, that was fairly obvious. But Obamy could only stutter, stammer and look foolish.
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Politics has always been like that, even in Washington's day. I'm watching the PBS John Adams series, which shows him accused of being a Monarchist and referred to as "Your Royal Rotundity"!

    I suppose it would be nice is there was a way to eliminate the garbage, but it's part of our competitive spirit. I think there are two aspects to political life: reason and emotion. They are equally strong in all of us, and because they exist they are equally valid. I wonder if reason alone would make you more liberal and me more conservative. I wouldn't be surprised.
  20. PatsFanInVa

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    LOL, no Belichick fan, I did not think he was in a cone of silence. I thought he was isolated and unable to hear Obama answer the questions.

    I understood the "cone of silence" to be a metaphor for a soundproof booth of some sort, like the green room the McCain aide took care to mention was without electronic communications.

    I did not understand it to mean "listening over the radio or getting notes on the cell phone."

    But I see you guys would rather bicker on this one than on the plagiarism story, which is sort of a slam dunk. In a church, no less.

    I mean, let's go out on a limb and say that the 35 unlikely coincidences did not occur. Occam's razor and all that.

    That's bearing false witness, in the middle of a church.

    You'd think people of faith would be upset with that... or at least view him as something less than washed in the blood of the lamb. I mean, that's a biggie, right in the middle of a church, right?

    I do hope that these questions make the right-wing-controlled media, but I doubt they will.

    :) Eh well.

    PFnV

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