Mayo leads NFL in tackles - BY 33

[BritPat]

Mayo is the best middle linebacker in the NFL right now. No argument can be made against that.

I loves me some Mayo - but Patrick Willis has been the best MLB/ILB in the league since he turned Pro, and is having another unbelievable year.

The guy has the potential to be better than Lewis.

 

[ausbacker]

I loves me some Mayo - but Patrick Willis has been the best MLB/ILB in the league since he turned Pro, and is having another unbelievable year.

The guy has the potential to be better than Lewis.

Willis is a gun. There's no doubt about that but I believe Mayo is having a better season this year.

 

[Kontradiction]

It's funny how everyone around here touting Willis is forgetting that he's led the NFL in tackles the last couple of years. On the same note, they're very quick to dismiss it with Mayo. Fact of the matter is that guys like Willis are always going to compile more sacks because they play in a more aggressive defensive system that blitzes their ILB's more often. Whereas the Pats, if we blitz either of our ILB's on any given play, it would more likely be Spikes.

 

[BritPat]

It's funny how everyone around here touting Willis is forgetting that he's led the NFL in tackles the last couple of years. On the same note, they're very quick to dismiss it with Mayo. Fact of the matter is that guys like Willis are always going to compile more sacks because they play in a more aggressive defensive system that blitzes their ILB's more often. Whereas the Pats, if we blitz either of our ILB's on any given play, it would more likely be Spikes.

Personally, tackles do little for me. I have Willis as the best ILB for two reasons.

1. Teams game-plan to go away from him.

2. He still makes an unbelievable amount of plays considering the above.

He's as quick a 3-4 ILB as there is in the league, he stacks and sheds as well as anyone (even including Bart Scott), and his instincts are scary. You'll see him moving to gaps before the play has started and he's almost always got it right.

I wanted him badly coming out in '07, but I'm more than happy we have Mayo.

 

[ausbacker]

Personally, tackles do little for me. I have Willis as the best ILB for two reasons.

1. Teams game-plan to go away from him.

2. He still makes an unbelievable amount of plays considering the above.

He's as quick a 3-4 ILB as there is in the league, he stacks and sheds as well as anyone (even including Bart Scott), and his instincts are scary. You'll see him moving to gaps before the play has started and he's almost always got it right.

I wanted him badly coming out in '07, but I'm more than happy we have Mayo.

You obviously missed the comments where Browns players were saying they were scheming against Mayo and directing plays away from him.

 

[Kontradiction]

Personally, tackles do little for me. I have Willis as the best ILB for two reasons.

1. Teams game-plan to go away from him.

2. He still makes an unbelievable amount of plays considering the above.

He's as quick a 3-4 ILB as there is in the league, he stacks and sheds as well as anyone (even including Bart Scott), and his instincts are scary. You'll see him moving to gaps before the play has started and he's almost always got it right.

I wanted him badly coming out in '07, but I'm more than happy we have Mayo.

Mayo commands and does all of the above just as well as Willis... with the exception of shedding blocks. That's about the only area where it's a clear cut victory for Willis.

 

[Urgent]

Please provide a compelling argument as to why a tackle is not a great statistic? I look forward to reading your summation with some interest.

I agree that having a very large number of tackles is not necessarily a very good thing.

Would you rather see the Patriots get 50 tackles a game or 100?
100 is larger. That's better right? What if Mayo had 25 of those 100 tackles?

50 tackles is usually far preferable. Usually, it means you are stopping the opponent and getting the defense off the field. 100 tackles a game is really, really bad.

Or, 50 tackles could mean that you give up a lot of touchdowns, and your defense never tackles anyone. Or that you have a ground-control time-consuming offense, and your opponent has a quick-strike vertical offense, and their drives last five plays to your fifteen. It could mean a lot of things.

You tend to measure running backs by yardage and especially yards-per-carry. If you are looking at ILB performance, you may want to consider yards-per-tackle average. A YpT average of under 5.0 might be good, weighing coverage and rushing. Or it might vary quite a bit in an offense with, say, a Ted Thomas and Roman Phifer, with Phifer mostly in coverage and Thomas mostly attacking the line.

When comparing college LB's, you tend to look at tackle totals, but need to consider high tackle numbers on terrible defenses.
For example:
2009: Matt Mayberry from Indiana had 108 tackles to Brandon Spikes' 68. 2008: Frantz Joseph from Florida Atlantic had 154 tackles to Rey Mauluga's 79.
2007: Thaddeus Washington from Colorado had 137 tackles.
2006: Tim McGarrigle from Northwestern had 156 tackles.

I don't know whether any of those guys are in the NFL. None converted those high tackle numbers into high draft picks, because those stats didn't correlate with capabilities or projected performance. It certainly didn't mean that Mayberry was better than Spikes, or that Joseph was better than Mauluga.

According to this stat:
2010 NFL Team Total Stats - National Football League - ESPN
New England is listed at #32 in total defense, having given up 4390 yards. That's a stunning 1700 more than #1 San Diego, or 62% more.
OK, skewed because only six teams have played 11 games.
In terms of Yards per Game, they are at #30.

Both Kyle Orton and Carson Palmer have more passing yards than Tom Brady. Who is the better QB?
David Garrard has more Yards per Attempt than Brady.
Michael Vick has more Yards per Game than Brady.
Line up those five QB's: how many pick Orton, Palmer, Garrard, or Vick over Brady?

In baseball, Pitcher Felix Hernandez had a 13-12 record.
Philip Hughes with NYY had an 18-8 record. Wins is one of the most important stats for a pitcher -- it's the first pitching stat listed on the ESPN baseball stats page. 2010 MLB Team and Player Stats - Major League Baseball - ESPN
Clearly Hughes is the better pitcher.
Until you compare their ERA's, which were 2.27 and 4.19. One stat in isolation, wins, is out of context with total performance.

So, it's hard to correlate really high tackle numbers for Mayo with performance.

It doesn't mean people think he is over-rated.
But if you want to assess comparative performance, you need a more robust statistic.

 

[MustaphaM0nd]

The eye test tells me Mayo is a top 5 ILB. Doesn't cover like Timmons, play sideline to sideline like Harris, or stack and shed like Willis, but he can do a little bit of everything. On a team that is young and prone to mistakes that a nice thing to have.

 

[tombonneau]

Please provide a compelling argument as to why a tackle is not a great statistic? I look forward to reading your summation with some interest.

Well since you asked, you accumulate tackles when you can't get an offense off the field. I'm reminded of what Crash Davis deemed a "dubious distinction" when he broke the record for minor league home runs.

 

[aluminum seats]

Please provide a compelling argument as to why a tackle is not a great statistic? I look forward to reading your summation with some interest.

A couple of good responses to this already, better than what I would write.

I just wanted to add that to me a good message board is similar to the back & forth of a good group conversation in a bar or living room or whatever, and snippy little posts like the one you made here are really irritating.

 

[ZoisKing]

Mayo is a playmaker, as he makes plays all over the field and is consistently in on a majority of the defense's tackles. He makes as many tackles from side to side as any linebacker today.

As far as the perceived "playmaking" stats go (ints, FF, sacks), the only one that I really see Mayo being ineffective is in interceptions. He's not going to get many sacks, because that's not something the Pats prefer his role to be. He's a contain guy. He's had a chance to get his hands on quite a few picks this year, but hasn't come up with any. That's part of his performance that does need some work. This year in particular, he's had a handful of batted balls land right in his lap and he hasn't come up with any.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

This thread is more evidence that the Pats fans are the crappiest chicken littles that ever crawled the earth.

 

[aluminum seats]

This thread is more evidence that the Pats fans are the crappiest chicken littles that ever crawled the earth.

Actually, that's not true at all. Your post, however, is worthy of a Jets' board.

 

[JackBauer]

I loves me some Mayo - but Patrick Willis has been the best MLB/ILB in the league since he turned Pro, and is having another unbelievable year.

The guy has the potential to be better than Lewis.

I'd respectfully disagree. Willis is a stud, no doubt, but he's been up and down this season like that entire team.

Ray Lewis is a once in a generation player, one of the best, if not the best to ever play his position. Willis' odds of eclipsing Ray Ray are extremely long.

 

[strngplyr]

Actually, that's not true at all. Your post, however, is worthy of a Jets' board.

I'm curious why this thread makes us bad fans. Are we supposed to think every play on our roster is the best? Darius Butler/Kyle Arrington are the next Cro/Revis tandem!! Woo! I love Mayo and think he's a complete baller and he's always classy, but I would love to see him force some fumbles, get some picks. I'm sure those will come eventually, but for right now he's just a tackling machine. I'd like to see more difference making plays, but we need a better supporting cast around him first because right now he's basically on cleanup duty for the rest of the defense IMO.

This doesn't mate sense. If you put yourself in a position to make a play regardless of down, distance, position, outcome and you execute that play given there's 10 other guys on the field with you who can make that same play what's problematic about that?

Right now Jerod Mayo is the best performing MLB in the NFL for mine. The production says so. His career still calls for a lot of accomplishment to reach Lewisonian status but his 2010 craps on Lewis' and any other middle or inside linebacker in 2010.

Ok, lets create a scenario. Remember when Alphonso Smith got trucked by BJGE into the endzone for a TD? Lets pretend it wasn't the endzone, and after BJGE trucks him he just trips, gaining 15-20 yards. Pretend this happens 15 times a game, every game. Alphonso Smith gets credit for every single one of those "tackles". So, he's the freaken' best, right? He gets 15 "tackles" every game. He must be amazing, right? No.

My point is that with nothing to go side-by-side with it, tackles are a complete garbage stat, you could be laying on the ground pouting like beached whale Albert Haynesworth and have someone trip over your fatass, guess who gets credit for the tackle?

I am NOT saying this is the case with Mayo, or that he is bad, but when all you look at is how many tackles he has, that doesn't tell you a single thing, except that he's the last player to touch the ball carrier before he goes down/out of bounds.

 

[ausbacker]

I still haven't read a compelling argument as to why a tackle isn't a valid measure of performance on the basis of

1. They don't state down,
2. They don't state position of the tackle,
3. They can be padded.

What I have read is people attempting to discredit the fact that Mayo is performing to an exceptionally high level.

Not one of you has provided a compelling argument as to why a tackle isn't a measure of performance that is any different to any other statistic given all stats can be padded. I would have thought most of you would watch the plays to know that Mayo makes a heap of tackles between the markers and sideline to sideline.

Embarrassing really.

 

[Ring 6]

Personally, tackles do little for me. I have Willis as the best ILB for two reasons.

1. Teams game-plan to go away from him.

I think if you researched that you would find the opposite. Willis' strength is chasing plays run away from him. Teams often run right at such a player to neutralize his effect.

2. He still makes an unbelievable amount of plays considering the above.

He also is in a defense that puts a premium on shielding him from blockers.
Our system requires Mayo to beat a blocker on every play, theres tries to get him unblocked.

He's as quick a 3-4 ILB as there is in the league, he stacks and sheds as well as anyone (even including Bart Scott), and his instincts are scary. You'll see him moving to gaps before the play has started and he's almost always got it right.

I disagree about his ability to take on and shed blockers, however thats not high on the list of what is needed in their defense.

wanted him badly coming out in '07, but I'm more than happy we have Mayo.

Both teams are in good shape with the guy they have.

 

[aluminum seats]

I still haven't read a compelling argument as to why a tackle isn't a valid measure of performance on the basis of

1. They don't state down,
2. They don't state position of the tackle,
3. They can be padded.

What I have read is people attempting to discredit the fact that Mayo is performing to an exceptionally high level.

Not one of you has provided a compelling argument as to why a tackle isn't a measure of performance that is any different to any other statistic given all stats can be padded. I would have thought most of you would watch the plays to know that Mayo makes a heap of tackles between the markers and sideline to sideline.

Embarrassing really.

This is the kind of prissy posts I was talking about. Urgent had an excellent post on the stat, and strngplyr has commented a couple of times as well. Nobody's trying to "discredit" Mayo, the discussion is about the usefullness of the stat generally.

 

[Ring 6]

I still haven't read a compelling argument as to why a tackle isn't a valid measure of performance on the basis of

1. They don't state down,
2. They don't state position of the tackle,
3. They can be padded.

What I have read is people attempting to discredit the fact that Mayo is performing to an exceptionally high level.

Not one of you has provided a compelling argument as to why a tackle isn't a measure of performance that is any different to any other statistic given all stats can be padded. I would have thought most of you would watch the plays to know that Mayo makes a heap of tackles between the markers and sideline to sideline.

Embarrassing really.

I think that tackles have to be taken in context. There are many variables that may or may not impact that statistic.
Example: If you have the best run stopping LDE in the world, your RDE is probably going to make more tackles because he will get run at most of the time.
Secondly a tackle made at the line of scrimmage is differnt than a tackle made 7 yards downfield after you were blown back by the guy blocking you.
Third, scheme has an impact as well between players who play similar positions. Willis for example is in a system that frees him to run to the ball, and attempts to get him unblocked. Mayo plays in a system that requires him to worry about the area between the C and T on his side until not only the play goes away, but after he has covered the counter/cutback area.

Of course tackles have meaning, but they require a lot of further examination. In other words, it is a less CONCLUSIVE stat than many others.

 

[ausbacker]

This is the kind of prissy posts I was talking about. Urgent had an excellent post on the stat, and strngplyr has commented a couple of times as well. Nobody's trying to "discredit" Mayo, the discussion is about the usefullness of the stat generally.

That's fine but not one of you has stated why a tackle is a misleading or discreditable statistic compared to any other statistic considering they can all be misleading and all have contextual application.

That's the point.