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Maybe we already have a solid WR corps?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Gwedd, Mar 30, 2013.

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  1. Gwedd

    Gwedd PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Alright, here's where my own argument come out.

    I'm thinking that the Patriots aren't in a bad position just now, vis-a-vis the wide receiver corps/situation. Considering the personnel on hand, they could do a lot without adding anyone else.

    Why do I say this? Because I believe that Belichick plans to use both WR's and his TE's in the same role, relegating their titles to administrative purposes.

    At present, NE could line up Gronkowski and Hernandez, Danny Amendola and Jenkins, plus put Ridley in the back field. Which of those threats gets the double coverage?

    Hernandez is tall and fast, with the ability to knock a defender out of the way. Perhaps he's the true speedy WR we've been looking for. Ah, but then there's Gronkowski who excells at TE, but also has the speed on a post as well as the ability to stretch and pluck it away.

    Amendola? He's an excellent slot receiver. A known quantity. If he gets in synch with TFB, watch out. No one will miss WWW. Which brings us to Jenkins. Everyone is complaining that's he's a JAG. Perhaps he is. Perhaps he hasn't been able to get into synch with a QB or playbook? Who knows. What his stats DO tell us, however, is that when he's in Man to Man, he has some issues. Those issues aren't a problem with him in Zone coverage, however.

    So my point is that our offense might well eveolve and play pretty doggone good with those we have to hand, not to mention potentially regaining Edelman.

    Who gets the double team? Hernandez? Gronk? Amendola? Jenkins? It's likely that teams end up playing zone, and when they do, Jenkin's abilities are upgraded. Zone is like a force multiplier with these guys.

    I'm not saying that this is how things will play out, but at present, the Patriots have 3 tall targets for TFB, and a fine slot receiver and aa couple decent RB's to run a screen. Could we use another, better, pure WR? Sure. So can every single team. But as it stands, after a couple nights thoughts, I'm not near as concerned as I was earlier this week.

    Those are my thoughts, anyway. I welcome yours. :D
  2. voluntarysaftey

    voluntarysaftey Rookie

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    Answer to your question:
    No
    We need an additional Lloyd or better to have a solid core
  3. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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  4. BoTown

    BoTown Rookie

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    No offense to the OP, I'm speaking more in general here, but I can't stand the school of thought that our TE's can be counted as our WR's in place of a real WR tandem. No, no, no. The whole idea of getting a studly 2-TE set was to give the Pats an advantage on offense. Split those two guys out wide and now you've neutralized the advantage a bit. You want the defense to have to account for the WR's AND the TE's. But as of now, it's the two TE's and Amendola. It's really no different than it's been for the last 2-3 seasons. The outside WR who can take the top off the defense is what's missing, and when defenses take away the middle that hole is very glaring.
  5. PatriotReign

    PatriotReign Rookie

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    It's not a complete disaster but it needs to get a lot better before the season starts.
  6. Get it shawtaay

    Get it shawtaay Rookie

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    As a group of targets, they'd be a little below league average, because of the excellence that is Gronk and Hernandez. But Amendola and Jenkins might be the single worst starting combination in the NFL. Seriously - name a worse WR core, I dare you.

    I don't see a way Jenkins passes Donald Jones on the depth chart. Given the strengths and weaknesses of Amendola, Gronk, and Hernandez, Jones represents a better "fit" in that 221 group. While younger and just as productive as Jenkins, he does less of his work in the middle of the field, where the other targets are at their best, than Jenkins. Additionally, while he's not the deep threat the board have been clamoring for, he can threaten the deeper areas of the field in a way none of the other guys listed can, as well as break one off if not accounted for. He's also an option on screens, which we love to mix in.
  7. BoTown

    BoTown Rookie

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    You're right, this WR core fails to stand out positively against the rest of the league. Only Oakland and St. Louis have WR cores I would hesitate to trade Amendola for (I trust Amendola more than Denarius Moore or Chris Givens, and those two teams have talented but raw and unproven receivers).
  8. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

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    I don't think it's as far off as many think.

    We still need someone to stretch the field and that's a big hole - but for the short, slot and mid range game, with 2 or 3 starting TEs - one of whom might actually line up as a WR - not to mention some RBs who can catch the ball, this is far from a 2006 situation with Reche Caldwell leading the ranks.

    If the season started today, Brady would almost be forced to spread the field, without Welker's trusted 110+ catches. There's some upside to that believe it or not - but Brady would still rack up enough passes to please those obsessed with stats.

    But they could still find themselves just that "one play short" when they needed it most - but then again that pretty much describes the most recent seasons.
  9. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The question is about the WR core. People using the TEs and RBs are just muddling the issue. The WR core isn't solid. It's lousy. It has no OWR1 or OWR2.
  10. Boomer B

    Boomer B Rookie

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    The WR core at this moment is Amendola and a couple of cast offs. Jenkins and Jones can fight for the spot that Branch held last year, but we still need an outside WR who can stretch the field to take over Lloyds spot. If we went into next season with the WR as is right now, i'd be pretty pissed. If Amendola goes down (which we know is possible) we'd be screwed. My guess is that one of our first 2 picks will be a WR.
  11. Brady_to_Moss

    Brady_to_Moss Revis Island is here PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1 guy that is injury prone is not a "core". It's a **** show
  12. Keyser Söze

    Keyser Söze Rookie

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    Get Justin Hunter, then we'll be ok.
  13. tonyto3690

    tonyto3690 Banned

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    I don't think WR is a disaster right now (like it was immediately after Welker left), but we still need a real #2. Amendola is arguably not even a #2 receiver. We don't need a prototypical 6'3, 4.2, 230 pound #1, but we really need another guy who can win outside the numbers and occasionally win deep.

    The two other guys we signed are solid #3 and #4 receivers that I'm big fans of in those roles, but asking anything more of them (and expect Amendola to carry the load the majority of the season) is asking for a disaster to happen.


    Resign Edelman, hope your guys stay healthy and spend the extra money on defense.

    Order of need imo.
    1. DT
    2. CB/S (flexibility because of McCourty, we need a real starter)
    3. #2 WR
    4. DE

    Luxury needs:
    1. Coverage LB
    2. DL depth
    3. CB/S depth (depending on which you fill the CB/S need)
    4. OL depth
  14. KontradictioN

    KontradictioN Do you even lift? PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Get Hunter and bring Lloyd back and it will be solid. Right now, our WR situation is pretty close to terrible.
  15. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    Gwedd IS stretching it a bit with his OP, but it has to be remembered that the #2 WR on the Pats is going to be the #4 receiving option and perhaps #5 if one of the RB's moves up the chart.

    Now that reality could mean a bunch of things for this season's version of the Pats offense.

    1. It could mean that it will be worth it for BB to invest in that high draft pick big receiver. So even if he produces only around 500 yds, it will be worth it for future, if he can become a true #1 or 2 down the road.

    2. It could mean that resigning Edelman would give us enough depth for the #2 WR position/back up slot receiver. Now we will have plenty of cap room for Abraham or Freeny or BOTH (how's that Andy ;) ) and still have room for a 3rd round WR prospect.

    3. We grab ESanders from the Steelers on the 19th for about $3-5MM/yr (the steelers currently have about $2.5 left on the cap plus rookies), to be a true #2 WR, and still add Edelman as a back up #2/slot slot guy, and go all defense with our 4 picks

    Bottom line Jimke, you petulant child, who I sometimes want to slap more than life itself ;) . there are a lot of WR permutations that are out there for the Pats to make before we even go into TC. So take a breath man. We aren't playing anyone next week I doubt we take less than a dozen WR's to camp and as I've stated before, I would 't be shocked if we kept only 4 true WR's when we break camp in September.
  16. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    Our current wide receiving corps consists of a solid but often injured player,
    a special teams player, two players cut for not being good enough and/or
    too slow, and three practice squadders. Hardly a solid group.

    To boot, Belichick has not had any luck drafting wide receivers since 2002.
    I don't expect him to take a chance on one with his first three draft picks.
    Better to draft a defensive lineman, offensive lineman, cornerback (not
    much better drafting cornerbacks either), pass rusher, or safety.

    I expect Belichick to use one or both of his 7th round picks on wide receivers and supplement them with 4 or 5 UDFA wide receivers. If he adds enough
    WRs to the roster, he might get lucky.
  17. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    .....and if you wanted to make a brief opinion, this wouldl suffice as a good as any :D
  18. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    I can't believe that I am rooting for Lloyd to return. He is too slow and
    doesn't get real good separation but he also caught 74 balls for 900 yards.
  19. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    2011:

    Welker
    Chad Johnson
    Deion Branch
    Edelman
    Underwood


    2013 (to date):
    The porcelain Italian (I know, but I'm more amused by it this way)
    Jones
    Jenkins

    As of right now, 2011, which was flat-out not good enough once we saw what Johnson was not bringing to the teable, is the superior group, by about a country mile. If the current group isn't a disaster, it can see disaster from where it's standing, and it's certainly got the potential to become one.

    It's early and the group is obviously not complete, but let's not pretend it's anything but what it is.
  20. BoTown

    BoTown Rookie

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    Lloyd was productive, though not a real difference maker as many, including myself, had been hoping. If the Pats can bring him back cheaper, they get a proven, productive veteran who is already familiar with the system.

    The hope was that if the WR core was getting an overhaul, that it would turn out looking better. It's still early, but that's not the case. Instead it's just different names.
  21. Hercules Rockefeller

    Hercules Rockefeller Rookie

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    I know you are responding to the OP, but you end up making the point that I feel is most important with the bolded part.

    Of the 2011 group that you named, only 3 of those guys were on the roster as of 3/30. That's why I am not as worried about the position---there are a lot of opportunities to add players before September.

    Completely agree that right now, on paper, it is a weak group, but the fact is that it does not matter at all...there are going to be additions to this group before the season starts. When all is said and done, I am extremely confident that the 2013 team will have a better WR group than the 2011 one.
  22. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In a word, "NO".

    You would line up Amendola and Molasses Mike and think that we have a solid wide receiver corp? Jenkins is not likely to even beat out Ebert for a roster spot. Even under your scenario, where is the "depth". This would be the worst WR corps of any of the playoff teams. BTW, imagine what happens when Amendola is out for a game or two.

    It is good that we have many months in which to acquire wide receivers.

  23. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with you in terms of the WR depth being able to be improved upon, and that 2/3 of the players we have now which consist of Amendola and ONE of Jones/Jenkins should be fine to take up 2 spots.

    Where I don't agree, and where I think you may have lost some people is the suggestion that we'd be okay at the present moment...

    I am not nearly as worried about the WR position as others, but we need to add at least one/two draft picks and also bring in a handful of other players to battle it out. Even then the majority of us likely won't be too optimistic, but it will most likely be just fine to get the job done.

    Llyod had somewhere near a 54% catch rate last year (IIRC). Our replacement likely won't see as many actual targets due to the hopeful return to health of the TE's, but we should be able to see a replacement put up roughly the same catch rate and close to 60-65 catches in my opinion.

    We've got to remember who's slinging the ball back there. Brady connected with Caldwell for 61 catches in a year where the entire depth sucked and teams had to worry about no one at all. If he can do that with Caldwell, then the replacement should be able to catch 60-65 balls WITH the exceptional talent surrounding him of Gronk, Hernandez, and even Amendola.
  24. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, this would be a mark against this year's final makeup, if you think about it. 2011 was lousy, and they didn't have their group in place by now, so it's not just early misses, but late failures.

    I hope you're right.
  25. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    The missing aspect is the ability to force attention outside the numbers and make the defense pay when they collapse inside. DA is better than Welker when working outside so that is a net plus. The problem with Lloyd was that he was always single covered. His stats were fine but he should have been constantly open and/or had massive YAC yards.

    Given the WR depth in the draft, I would expect the Pats to look there. Sanders would be a fine addition and a 3rd is not too high a price. But I don't think that changes the dynamic too much...they would still need a guy Brady could consistently throw to until the defense widened out to compensate.
  26. grux

    grux Rookie

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    The 2011 line up was good enough to get to the super bowl. That wasn't to bad.
  27. Frezo

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    Hey Gwedd, the WRs will be fine as long as we have Evan Williams.
  28. FredFromDartmouth

    FredFromDartmouth Rookie

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    This is way off base. The Patriots absolutely need a deep threat to force the safeties to play deep. Last year they did not have this and the result were pretty obvious against the Raven in the playoffs; the Ravens (like a lot of other teams) laughed at the Patriots WRs and clogged the intermediate / center of the field leaving the Patriots slow-footed WRs to be covered one-on-one. The first team to expose the Patriots joke at WR was Seattle but I saw it in pre-season; Lloyd could be covered in single coverage.

    A deep threat is far and away the Patriots biggest hole and you can expect (shutter) them to target it in the draft...ugh.
  29. Tunescribe

    Tunescribe PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not "core." That has to do with apples. It's corps. :)
  30. crowell33

    crowell33 Rookie

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    What you see is what you get.

    This may be the year that a WR is not drafted in the entire first round. Patterson with his one year of division one ball, and 46 catch, 778 yard season, is currently ranked as the drafts best receiver. Maybe you prefer Tavon Austin, the tiny 5'8", 173 pound slot receiver.

    Unrestricted free agency? By some estimates, Edelman is the top remaining WR. Lloyd appears finished with his nearly NFL low 2.4 YAC.

    Restricted FA? There is always E. Sanders with his career averages of 30 catches, 420 yards. Yes I know, last year's 1 TD, 598 yards was his best ever so maybe he is peaking. Lets not forget his career long reception is 37 yards.

    Personally I think the Pats, with Gronk, Hernandez, Ballard, Amendola, Vereen, all playing with a HOF QB behind the best Oline in the NFL, already have a fantastic passing attack. But a #1 or #2 receiver is not walking through that door.

    Yes, I know, we have months to find new receivers. That's great, you can have months in the desert looking for an Olympic swimming pool but you won't have much luck. ( unless of course your in Vegas ).
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