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Maybe they had no choice

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Bostonian1962, Oct 7, 2010.

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  1. Bostonian1962

    Bostonian1962 Rookie

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    I was like most, in that I originally did not like the trade. However, if the following is true, maybe we should be glad we even got a 3rd for the guy.

    I was just told, and maybe you all know more about it, that the following happened:

    First, Moss goes off on O'Brien in the locker room. On the flight home, BB goes back to talk to Moss. Moss completely ignores him, keeps his head phones on, and won't talk, like some friggin' 10 year old. Two players see this, and go back to talk to him, and get the same treatment. Then two coaches go back and the same thing happens. They got off that flight, and agree "he's got to go".

    You cannot let that behavior go on period. They could have fined and/or suspended him, but then you have a petulent, immature jerk, distracting the team. He guaranteed that these are his final 12 games with the Patriots, but at what cost to team unity?

    They traded him to a team playing their rivals this week. They got a 3rd pick for him.

    If all this happened, I would now like to apologize to Bill Belichick. I and others don't know all that is going on behind the scenes. I didn't like the trade. Now, I see, you probably had little choice, and made the best out of a horrible situation.
  2. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Rookie

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    I don't believe that the pats would trade a guy like moss unless they had to.

    its not like they got drunk and did this as a prank
  3. convertedpatsfan

    convertedpatsfan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    As others pointed out, he also ignored Brady on the field after Tom came over to say something to him. It was obvious that Moss didn't care at all about the win.

    We've only won 3 games so far, yet after 2 of them, Moss blew up. That week 1 rant was really bizarre and unbelievable. And even after a huge division win on the road, Moss couldn't care about anyone but himself. Winning can solve a lot of problems, but in this case, even wins didn't matter to Moss, and at that point, it's a lost cause.

    I wish we got back more, and thought the Vikings would be way more desperate with the Rice injury and Harvin's migraines, but after all this info has been leaked, I now realize we were the desperate ones. The situation was so bad that we couldn't wait it out, couldn't even bring Moss back to practice for a few days because he would have been a disruptive presence.
  4. serifyn

    serifyn Rookie

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    Its a combination of 3 things, moss becoming a distraction, moss having a huge contract and moss's diminished production this season.

    all those things together and yea, you better get what you can.

    keep in mind as well that although moss is a great football player, the patriots see him every day and they dont do like alot of us fans do and instantly associate a name with greatness,

    i guarantee that the patrots saw his slip in production in practice and on the field and that was their greatest reason for trading him, if they thought he was the same randy moss he has been the past couple of years here, i dont think they trade him even if his 'disruption' is beating up rookies and wearing jets gear.
  5. PatsFanSince74

    PatsFanSince74 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm surprised this is a revelation. The only reason to make this trade, if you are sane, is because you have no choice. That it got to the point where it had to be done is a management "Fail" from top to bottom of the Patriots organization: from Kraft to Belichick to O'Brien.

    There is no way the Patriots are better or even at stasis with this trade. If you don't believe that, ask yourself one question: do you think the Ravens will be disappointed or pleased that they don't have to game-plan for Welker Moss WR coverage?

    That doesn't mean that, over the course of four or five games they can't adapt. Unfortunately, those four or five games include games against Baltimore, San Diego, Pittsburgh and Minnesota.
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
  6. Patjew

    Patjew PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #18 Jersey

    I've come back to earth and realized that there was no real choice, so I can't blame BB or the Pats. But it still sucks.

    My parents got divorced when I was a kid. Even though I knew it was the right thing, it didn't make it hurt less.

    The Moss trade is exactly the same. Except more painful.
  7. Sean Pa Patriot

    Sean Pa Patriot Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    after a day it has set it, there is more to this... if he was the model citizen that he was for the last 3 years , then this doesnt happen...but this we do know

    The softball game calling out how the pats dont pay, then Kraft responded by saying that we payed him 20 million the last 2 years..

    The kickoff gala where kraft asked there players to mingle with guest.. he puts his headphones on and ignores people...


    the outburst after a big team win...

    then on miami with the outburst at halftime, and ignoring the team on the flight on home...

    Belichick could not cover for him anymore.. there were probably more stuff we dont know about it..

    I still say this trade stinks... but the short term will be bad, the long term will be fine, but would love to still have Tom Brady have weapons in his prime.. because 2 years and 4 games of with Brady and Moss is not enough...
  8. Mike the Brit

    Mike the Brit Minuteman Target PatsFans.com Supporter

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    :youtheman:

    Thank you. You've said all that needs to be said. Now all I need to do is find a way to get to sleep without crying -- and change my sig.
  9. Uncle Rico

    Uncle Rico Rookie

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    Jackie MacMullen has a good column, which Reiss sums up this way:

    Jackie MacMullan discusses Randy Moss' downfall with the New England Patriots - ESPN Boston
  10. MrBoxscores

    MrBoxscores Rookie

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  11. Froob

    Froob Rookie

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    Yea I guess if that's the case it was the right move. Freaked me out at first too. You want a guy who cares about winning. Would of liked to get a player out of it though. They couldn't of thrown in greg lewis?
  12. RhodyPatriot

    RhodyPatriot Rookie

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    Of course they had no choice
    Does anyone honestly believe Belichick made this move IN SEASON because he is interested in stockpiling picks? :rolleyes:
    And I guarantee you Tom Brady was consulted on this move.
    Even he has had enough of Diva Dog.
  13. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    That and this thread pretty much says it all. The fact that reports are that Moss was initially shocked that he was traded show how out of touch he was. What did think would happen? This isn't Oakland where things fester for year(s). After the Adalius Thomas and Deion Branch sagas, this was one problem that was going to get nipped in the bud before it exploded and dominated the news for weeks on end eclipsing everything else.
    One thing about the Patriots is that they are resilient. What would we be saying had it not been a trade but an injury (or a holdout) that left him out for the year?
    Others will have it step up and in like Matt Cassell did, like Dan Connelly did, like BJGE did (granted it's early)....
    Let Randy have the narcissist QB in Minnesota with that coaching staff and we'll see how long until he's pining to come back here or talking about "how we did things in New England". If reports of tension between Childress and Favre are true , it just adds fuel to the fire. Oh he'll probably have a 10 catch 150 yd 2TD night on Monday and then go sulk because they haven't given him the big extension... Thanks but the team won 3 Super Bowls with a no name receiver corps and I trust the QB to get them the ball...
    Rant over.
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
  14. vyrago

    vyrago Rookie

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    I know a number of you patsfans won't like this, but this is very reminiscent of The Sox history with Manny Ramirez. They are both "I,me, mine guys" and though they will give the team concept a try for a while, as soon as the spotlight, and more to the point, the cashlight is off them, they turn into who they are--big, selfish babies.


    I've been on the wrong side of this Moss argument. He is a jerk--a talented jerk, but a jerk none-the-less. BB did the right thing. :(
  15. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't consider this a management fail. He was never going to be a system fit, that's just not in his DNA. They could have just avoided the whole experience, but they knew better than we did they had the horses to manage his ego out of the gate given the existing circumstances. Re-signing him in 2008 was another calculated risk, but by not tagging him they tested his commit level and he passed muster. I wouldn't have necessarily extended myself as far as they did financially to further test his committment level... I suggested after 2009 I thought they would be wise to walk away and I was lambasted for uttering such a ridiculous idea. I'm a student of human nature as much as football and if you took off the rose colored glasses you could see this day was fast approaching because it always does with these guys no matter how much effort you put into maintaining them. That maintenance was wearing on Brady and Belichick at a time when they had more significant long term issues on their plates.

    When he held his impromptu self absorbed post game presser in week 1 I knew we were at the point where the rubber meets the road, whether fans in general or Moss enablers/apologists were ready to accept that or not. I'm just relieved they were able to deal with the situation quickly heading into what has amounted to a blessed early bye with the team 3-1 in the standings. It could have been a lot worse. I just hope he hasn't already done too much psychological damage to his young corps of admirers, many of whom oddly play (or don't) in the secondary... Randy was the piedpiper to them as he was to many of the bandwagon, highlight reel fans here - all of whom need to get over him and start concentrating on making an impact on the field and impressing their coaches and planning for an old school Patriots experience - choosing once again to be introduced as a team...because teams are what win championships.
  16. PatsFanSince74

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    You might be right, but I see it a little differently. As you say, they knew what they were getting when they got him and did manage him, as you detail, pretty well for the first three years. We'll never know everything that happened, at least not until BB writes his book, but I find it hard to believe that a team that prides itself on management couldn't have figured a way to manage its way through this. Startups and established companies alike are constantly managing the egos of prima donna contributors. We all have to move on now, but I'm not ready to let them off the hook for this, until I have more information.

    Completely agree with your second paragraph. Whatever went bad, started way before this week, which is why I question how the situation was managed.
  17. p8ryts

    p8ryts Rookie

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    Addition by subtraction. How can you have someone on the team that pouts after a win because he didn't get the ball? Maybe now there will be some legitamate attempts at blocks on running plays and screens. He's another Manny, a home run threat but not a ball player.

    Now if we can just trade Gisele, we can get the old Tommy back.
  18. Brady'sButtBoy

    Brady'sButtBoy Rookie

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    The trade was clearly a case of cutting your losses. Moss was going to get worse and worse. How do I know this? Because he had already been getting worse and worse - from the spoil brat routine at the Pats' charity events, to his bizarre tirade after game one, to his his so-so effort later in the Jets game, to his snit with O'Brien, to playing mute on the way home, the arc toward disaster was well underway.

    The thing that sucks is that by acting like a self-centered child, Moss got traded somewhere he wanted to go, where he thinks he'll be able to ring up big numbers. Acting badly gets you some of what you want - this lesson Moss has now taught the youngsters on the Pats and there is no undoing it.
  19. PatsFanSince74

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    I hadn't thought of that angle. It's a very good point. Ugh! Another reason to dislike this mess!
  20. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

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    We're playing a bit of armchair QB here. No doubt if he was acting up, it's not a bad decision to send him packing.

    But Randy's recent behavior should be separated from what he gave this team in previous years. He went through the Matt Cassel saga pretty well (then again, what could he do?)

    Randy has always seemed immature but I would not knock on him for getting surly about his contract. He's about the money? Yeah, of course, but so is every player. Even Brady.

    Moss is approaching his final years. The next contract is his last. The league could go on hiatus next year. Think about it: if that happens, then Moss NEVER cashes in. If I were in his shoes, I'd be pissed as well. The good part is this: that's Minnesota's headache now. As the year goes on, and Moss continues to play without a contract, and as the stoppage for next season looms, Moss isn't going to take it well. He shouldn't, I know I wouldn't--but that doesn't necessarily mean I would act like an immature kid.
  21. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    74

    Sometimes there is simply no answer.

    If Moss was given a big contract this would not have happened. If the gameplan, provided Moss the chance to prove he is worthy of another big contract, I doubt this would have happened. However, the two are not mutually exclusive because you don't give huge contracts to guys who will play dimished/secondary roles.

    My guess is BB decided after 2009 on a different direction. We have those pieces and they checked out the past two weeks. If Moss would have accepted the secondary, "decoy' role then fine.

    My guess is management realized that would not happen based on play and comments so they were prepared for the inevitable. However, the inevitable was only possible if the new direction worked.

    Would they prefer to have Moss? Hell yes

    Would they prefer to have Moss on their terms? Hell, yes

    Is that realistic? Probably not

    I have enjoyed his play here and like Moss alot. Yet sometimes you simply have to move on.
  22. cmasspatsfan

    cmasspatsfan Rookie

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    I think they could have managed their way through it but it would have expended a lot of energy, energy better spent elsewhere. They probably knew Moss had a shelf life and they would keep him til the shelf life expired, then either dump him or trade him.
  23. unoriginal

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    Have you ever noticed how often those prima donna contributors change companies? And most of them aren't chasing a $10 million per annum paycheck.
  24. smg93

    smg93 Rookie

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    His trade was exactly how they manage the team. Perhaps the goals are a bit different here for you and I. What you seem to be saying is that management should be more about keeping talented individuals on the team so that they remain happy. My thoughts are kind of the opposite on this. Management to me is about making sure the system/team is secure and not any one individual person.

    By trading him, I believe the team has sent an extremely strong signal to players and fans that the team's interest will always be greater than any one individual's.
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
  25. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What you fail to grasp is Bill is committed to not managing egos, that responsibility rests with the player and their teamates. He abhored what Parcell's did with egos like LT, and while it worked in increments he knew it spelled long term consequences he never wanted to have to live with on HIS teams. Just like Kraft stipulated to him he wanted nothing to do with thugs and hoodlums if that was the price he was expected to pay for winning in this league, Bill wanted nothing to do with divas. So few here understand what the basic philosophy of the "system" is at it's core. Responsibility, accountability, selfless dedication to the common goal. That is why as Pioli often pointed out we select from a more limited talent pool that many other teams. We want the unselfish self starter, the player who is coachable and driven and committed to winning. The guy who lets his playing do the talking and knows he has to earn his living and it's not a hype driven given and who cares more about winning here than making every last nickle he can squeeze out of a career.

    Bill clearly knows you can't handle every guy the same way, but the rules apply to all of them regardless of talent or standing or perceived value. That was made clear to Moss the day he cried and promised his way onto the roster. Had Brady not made that meeting last winter that Bill placed so much emphasis on, he'd have been fine with that under the circumstances. The beauty of Brady is he wasn't going to ask for the favor, rather he was going to set the tone because he knew how badly the team needed to set that tone. Randy felt disrespected when he was sent home just like all the other clowns who didn't get it... Randy felt disrespected when Brady reemed him in practice for not making a play on a ball...even though he knew that Brady regularly endured reaming in front of the team, as did Rodney and Tedy and every other starter or sub or benchwarmer on this team.

    This organization saved Randy Moss' ass and career and they had his back against all comers and critics and they coddled his delicate psyche within and sadly even beyond reason IMO, and what he did in return is ultimately revert to the form that landed him here in the first place. A leopard never changes it's spots no matter now well you think you're managing it. Now he's off to rejoin a bunch of kindred spirits back at the same place his journey started, the first place he wore out his welcome and shot his way out of... Oddly there remain a collection of desperation fueled enabler/apologist psynchophant fanboys waiting to revel in his return...

    Good, let them manage the end of his career as well as they did it's beginnings...ultimately with the same thing to show for it...:popcorn:

    Hopefully the lesson has been learned here. I wouldn't hold my breath for the replacement diva...Bill's done with the talented malcontent reclamation projects who pay lip service to loving the game or loving to win when what they love above all else is themselves...
  26. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    Folks........ It's pretty simple. Remember Moss came to us amid a lot of trepidation. Many argued for, based on his talent, other said.... No way, he'll turn into a cancer, look at his history.

    We've all forgotten about his past because of everything he's done for us.

    Right now, I'm reminded of Denny Green's CLASSIC RANT that is fitting.

    Folks, it turns out that Randy Moss is who we thought he was.

    He's a self-absorbed, petulant, me-first talent that is fine when things are going well, but a team-killer when they aren't. He was in Minny the first go round, Oak, and now NE...... Anyone want to take bets on how it ends up for the Minny in the end? It'll be fine this year, then next year when T-jack is throwing him the rock, we'll see what happens :rolleyes:

    Minny will remember all the reasons they dumped him the first go round. Ever consider re-marrying your ex-wife? :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
  27. Bella*chick

    Bella*chick Addicted to the light

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    Agree, except I think it needs to be narrowed even further....Moss is fine when things are going well for the team because of HIM. If he's a focal point of a great team, well, it's all good. But we're 3-1 and we won an awesome road game the other night and Randy wasn't fine with it by a long shot.
  28. Patriot_in_NY

    Patriot_in_NY Rookie

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    Point taken ;)
  29. Teenuh

    Teenuh Banned

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    Yeah, Bill and Kraft would never do something like that. They would never trade players that were an important part of their offense or defense like Moss, Seymour, Vrabel, Branch, etc... No, never... :rolleyes:
  30. ctpatsfan77

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    The main reason why it was only a 3rd is that this is, apparently, just a rental. Even the Vikings aren't sure they're going to resign him long-term.
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
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