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Matthew Shepard Act or the Pedophile Protection Act???

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by DarrylS, May 10, 2009.

  1. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It always is amazing how the most innocuous situation gets polarized in this day and age.. Senate Bill 909 aka the Matthew Shepard Act.. which has to do with hate crimes.. is it a Pedophile Protection Act?? Or is it necessary legislation..

    Not a big fan of more laws to enforce.. but part of this bill has to do with crimes committed on Indian Reservations.. for example if an man or woman, goes onto a reservation and commmits an act of violence.. there is no jurisdiction when that person leaves the reservation.. the laws have become so muddled there is no one who can prosecute.. it has gotten to be a big problem in some of the tribal lands in the Dakota's.. so effectively a crime will of violence will have no consequences..

    Anyways Worldnet paints it as a Pedophile Protection act.. others do not..

    'Pedophile Protection Act' heads to Senate committee

    While a copy of the law is here, it already has 39 co sponsors so it looks like a slam dunk.. Snowe and Collins are co sponsors..

    Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

    Last edited: May 10, 2009
  2. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    This is one of those times where I could put forward all the reasons why this is the most idiotic argument against Hate Crimes prevention I've ever seen, but instead I'll just say "who cares what they say," ignore them, and watch the bill get passed.
  3. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    If my straight neighbor is murdered by his gay neighbor who called him a homophobe just before he did it, it's no worse than if my gay neighbor is murdered by my straight neighbor who called him a swish. And that's no worse than my fat neighbor being beaten to death while his skinny assailant is calling him a fat piece of....All three lives are just as valuable. All of them are hate crimes.

    Tell me a wife who murders her husband isn't a hate crime 90% of the time.

    Sick people do sick things. Thought- policing society will never be morally justifiable. It's fascist and selective.
  4. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    I agree with Wista. Hate crime laws dodge the First Amendment by going directly after what a person thinks; but they violate the spirit.

    Besides Sheppard's killers got two consecutive life sentences each. They'll die in jail hopefully many, many miserable years from now. That's good enough for me.
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The part that is interesting is beefing up federal prosecution and increasing jurisdiction on Indian Lands.. this should have been addressed stand alone, rather than just lumping it in to this bill.
  6. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    Great post. :youtheman:

    Murder is murder. Assault is assault.

    This should get over turned by the supreme court, if it gets that far.
  7. PatsFanInVa

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    I think hate crime legislation is the closest thing to anti-terrorism we have in our law.

    The goal of desecrating a cemetary, for example, is to cause those in the community whose cemetary was desecrated to feel fear based on their communal standing -- not to cause (let's say) $291 in property damage.

    That is why a lynching is different from a drug deal gone bad or other killing for profit motive, or a wife shooting her husband in flagrante. We recognize that flash of anger, by the way, as unlike premeditation, and both as different from an accidental manslaughter. I see no reason to pretend that the law just now started treating different killings differently. The law is already involved in such "mindreading," so the argument that this flaw attends hate crime legislation only is a specious one.

    A hate killing is not intended solely to destroy, unjustly, the life of one man. It is intended rather to infect that man's community with the fear and hate felt by the perpetrators toward a community. It combines a murder of one with a threat against every person in that community.

    PFnV
    Last edited: May 10, 2009
  8. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    That's why we have judges instead of sentence givers who just tally up the crime convictions and give those found guilty their 'bill'
  9. PatsFanInVa

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    Can judges give the death penalty for a parking violation? Can they award the estate of the victim to his murderer as the murderer's "sentence"?

    The judges have varying degrees of lattitude. Obviously one of the big jokes of that system for 30 years or so has been this "mandatory minimum" horsehockey as related to drugs. But I digress.

    The point I am making here is that whether or not you favor hate crime legislation, you cannot make the argument that it differs in kind from other judicial practice.

    PFnV
  10. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    You make good points, as usual, but I think there are various sentencing guidelines and practices already in place that you alluded to. More serious punishment for violent crimes needs to be realized so there is no question what will happen when ANYONE is violated.

    An aside:
    I find it particularly odd that so much effort is going into this legislation while serious crimes against children, the elderly and disabled continues to be insufficiently prosecuted and punished.

    Also, I think lynching of black Americans should carry a special punishmentm which might make my position seem inconsistent, but the history of slavery in the US still resonated with some of America's oldest families. I'm nothing if not inconsistent.
  11. PatsFanInVa

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    I think the point is that the law itself recognizes a variety of circumstances in the classification of crimes -- in your own formulation, W, you seem to recognize one form of intimidation but not others based on one idea of what practices would carry with them the terrorist threat against communities. I think those should probably apply for group-violence threads via violent hate crimes as a category.

    Other laws that wouldn't fly with a one-size-fits-all judiciary include the law that if someone is killed and you are committing a crime with a gun (even using it as a threat, unloaded [I believe,]) that death becomes a capital murder in some states. So if you go in flashing your gun to get a thousand bucks from the register, and the police come and an officer shoots and kills your accomplice, you're guilty of a capital murder.

    There is a similar drug related law. One would think that drug use would make you still a raging ass if you commit a violent crime, but the crime is not necessarily any more violent than if you're just naturally ornery.

    These "sentence enhancers" are all over the place. Just sayin.

    PFnV
  12. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    What worries me (so to speak) is that language is being submitted as evidence about a violent crime. I hear white kids using the N-word all the time with other kids black and white. How is the government going to apply the "hate crime" ordinance in cases where there is great ambiguity as there is bound to be.

    Granted on the special circumstances points you make. I assumed those were in place already but. like most laws, aren't enforced all the time.
  13. PatsFanInVa

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    Yeah, and that's where the judge part comes in, I suppose. I've gone so far as to say this doesn't differ in kind from the types of things we already do. I am by and large in sympathy with the idea of hate crime laws, and think they can be implemented at least to the same standard of consistency as the rest of our laws. That doesn't mean I'll sit here and say "I am dead certain there will never be any consequences from said laws that I don't like." Same with the rest of our legal code, basically. I think there is actually a need for such laws, but it's very likely that in this venue, pretty much among a white, Christian, middle-class-and-above audience (with some few counterexamples,) we will see an exaggerated horror at said laws.

    The one part of that demographic broad sweep that falls apart here is the "Christian" bit, even if we take it to mean "culturally christian," i.e., inclusive of agnostics, atheists and druids who nevertheless go back to the family home on Christmas and theoretically celebrate God being born (even if they claim they are celebrating the tree or something.)

    In terms of hate crimes, that part falls apart in such "white guy" venues because Jews got into the "really white" club for the most part, but are still on the Nazi/Klan shlitz list, and so remember (and are continually re-submitted to) the terrorist methodology of hate crimes. Gays are another example. Liberals and progressives in any demographic are more likely to actually think through such legislation too.

    But what would the opinions look like hereabouts were were a predominantly Jewish bulletin board, a predominantly Muslim one, a predominantly gay one, or a predominantly Black one?

    I point this out because I so often notice that the spectrum hereabouts goes from full-blown racist to a sort of gradualist anti-racist approach (such as is my own tendency.)

    We don't have examples here of radical anti-racism, or for that matter, of insistence on the "right" to counter-racism, as many here argue their "right" to racism (or homophobia or antisemitism.) Now cue up the armies of violinists for the beset and beleaguered members of the majority, claiming a war on Christmas (and/or Christians,) claiming that the Bakke case pretty much was the equivalent of 200 years of slavery, etc.

    Anyhoo, I guess I'd throw in a caveat: We're not polling a representative sample. It's good to see that the opinions reflect some thought and some breadth of spectrum, but we as a community do reflect some of the demographic homogeneity that makes the racists and right wing fringe elements so comfortable on PatsFans.com.

    It's worth remembering that in a few decades, such a venue's average opinion will actually reflect only the largest minority opinion. Even now, it is not a sufficient representation of American opinion, a fact that is often apparently lost on the right wingers here.

    But of course, we are "where" we are, and it is what it is. Like I said it's been a pretty good discussion given the limitations that go without saying here.

    PFnV
  14. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What happened to the criminals who murdered Mr Sheppard?

    Oh wait they're both serving life sentences. Death Penalty would have been better. Since they killed a gay man no lib judge will let these animals out.

    More 'feel good' legislation for a designated victim group. If someone is murdered the killer should lose their life or serve life in prision no matter the political ststus of the victim. EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW.
  15. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Are the native americans a "feel good" group??, that is also adressed in this legislation.. guess you went for the headlines and worldnet article only..
  16. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Then why is the legislation centered in Sheppard rather than addressing a problem in/on reservations.

    Apparently nothing concerning Indian lands affected justice being done in the Sheppard case.
  17. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    That was my initial question as the question was raised about outside violence no Native American Lands...
  18. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Pat Dobson agrees that it is the "Pedophile Protection Act"....

    Dobson: 'There's utter evil coming out of Congress'

    Last edited: May 15, 2009

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