Manning vs Brady, yes again

[everlong]

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.co...as-playoff-like-performance-cincinnati/32597/
I didn't realize Peyton had 8 seasons of 15+ interceptions. That really is pretty crappy. All time leader in pick 6's as well is a bit shocking. The follow up article on why Brady is better is the most complete I've read.

Following a four-pick night in Cincinnati, Peyton Manning has more interceptions this season than Brother Eli. He also clinches his eighth season of at least 15 interceptions.

For the sake of argument and comparison, Tom Brady has zero.

Also consider Peyton Manning has 28 pick-6's since his rookie season in 1998. Brett Favre is next with 27 followed by Drew Brees (23) and Carson Palmer (22).

Tom Brady has 10 pick-6's in his career, by the way. Consider it another log on the fire that Brady is better than Manning.

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.co...w-tom-brady-better-than-peyton-manning/31873/

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Beating Brett (Pick) Favre in career interceptions is truly a lofty accomplishment.
We have a Patriotic duty to propagate the meme that Peyton's nickname is Pick Six, P6.

 

[Anteros]

I just read that article yesterday. Although he's preaching to the choir as far as I'm concerned, I'm glad articles like this exist for the haters.

 

[LightSkinSmurf]

Ill revisit this debate once both of them retire. Sort of tired of talking about it for now.

 

[Observer]

I thought this was neat:
"Look at it this way: the Patriots could go 12-4 this year, earn the No. 1 or 2 seed in the playoffs, win both playoff games, win the conference title for a record sixth time under one QB, then lose in the Super Bowl ... and Brady's career winning percentage will DECLINE, simply by falling short in the Super Bowl. The pace of victory has been incredible and unprecedented. "

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

This is becoming like a debate on whether the sky looks blue or not.

 

[everlong]

This is becoming like a debate on whether the sky looks blue or not.

And yet some would apparently tell you it's orange and blue and the clouds form an 18 in the sky out of homage.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

I'm a firm believer of Brady > Manning, but this piece doesn't really say much. There are lots of great arguments towards Brady being better than Manning, but this one is kind of stupid.

Since when did 15 INTs become the arbitrary line in the sand of a bad season by a QB? If we use 14 as the imaginary line, it would be 9 to 3 for Manning, still more, but not as misleading, especially at the beginning of their careers.

5 of those 8 seasons where Manning threw 15+ occurred in his first 5 seasons, including his rookie season where he was thrown into the fire and left to figure things out. Brady threw 14 INTs in 3 of those seasons, and probably missed out on a 4th because he was fortunate to sit for a year as a rookie and develop. During those first 5 years, Manning averaged over 54 more pass attempts per season than Brady, so to say Manning's 15 INT season is poor while Brady's 14 INT seasons are ignored seems like a really bizarre way to measure success.

And even after those 5 years, what exactly is wrong with a 15 INT season? Not all 15 INT seasons are the same. Here are Manning's other 15-INT seasons as he got older:

- 2014: 67%, 8.0 YPA, 296 YPG, 39 TDs, 15 INTs
- 2010: 66%, 6.9 YPA, 294 YPG, 33 TDs, 17 INTs
- 2009: 69%, 7.9 YPA, 281 YPG, 33 TDs, 16 INTs

None of those are terrible seasons.

Yes, he has more INTs than brother Eli this season. But I'd much rather have Peyton's 67% Comp/8.0 YPA/296 YPG/39 TDs/15 INTs than Eli's 64% Comp/7.3 YPA/265 YPG/29 TDs/13 INTs.

And I really hate to harp on it, but 15 INTs is one of the stupidest potential "benchmarks" I've ever seen published by someone older than 7 years old.

Andrew Luck has thrown 38 TDs vs 16 INTs this season. He's thrown more INTs than Eli Manning but I doubt you'd find anyone suggesting Eli is having a better season. Brees is at 32 TDs vs. 14 INTs. If he throws one more INT or not is not going to determine whether he has a good season or not.

There are lots of good reasons why Brady is better than Manning. This article is not one of them though.

 

[The Brandon Five]

I'm a firm believer of Brady > Manning, but this piece doesn't really say much. There are lots of great arguments towards Brady being better than Manning, but this one is kind of stupid.

Since when did 15 INTs become the arbitrary line in the sand of a bad season by a QB? If we use 14 as the imaginary line, it would be 9 to 3 for Manning, still more, but not as misleading, especially at the beginning of their careers.

5 of those 8 seasons where Manning threw 15+ occurred in his first 5 seasons, including his rookie season where he was thrown into the fire and left to figure things out. Brady threw 14 INTs in 3 of those seasons, and probably missed out on a 4th because he was fortunate to sit for a year as a rookie and develop. During those first 5 years, Manning averaged over 54 more pass attempts per season than Brady, so to say Manning's 15 INT season is poor while Brady's 14 INT seasons are ignored seems like a really bizarre way to measure success.

And even after those 5 years, what exactly is wrong with a 15 INT season? Not all 15 INT seasons are the same. Here are Manning's other 15-INT seasons as he got older:

- 2014: 67%, 8.0 YPA, 296 YPG, 39 TDs, 15 INTs
- 2010: 66%, 6.9 YPA, 294 YPG, 33 TDs, 17 INTs
- 2009: 69%, 7.9 YPA, 281 YPG, 33 TDs, 16 INTs

None of those are terrible seasons.

Yes, he has more INTs than brother Eli this season. But I'd much rather have Peyton's 67% Comp/8.0 YPA/296 YPG/39 TDs/15 INTs than Eli's 64% Comp/7.3 YPA/265 YPG/29 TDs/13 INTs.

And I really hate to harp on it, but 15 INTs is one of the stupidest potential "benchmarks" I've ever seen published by someone older than 7 years old.

Andrew Luck has thrown 38 TDs vs 16 INTs this season. He's thrown more INTs than Eli Manning but I doubt you'd find anyone suggesting Eli is having a better season. Brees is at 32 TDs vs. 14 INTs. If he throws one more INT or not is not going to determine whether he has a good season or not.

There are lots of good reasons why Brady is better than Manning. This article is not one of them though.

Well, Peyton must have been still "figuring it out" in 1998 because he didn't just throw 15 INTs, he threw 28. The other 7 seasons with 15 or more:

1999: 15
2000: 15
2001: 23
2002: 19
2009: 16
2010: 17
2014: 15 (and counting)

Interestingly enough, the year the Colts won the Super Bowl (2006 season) was the year he threw the fewest (9). Tom's best year was 2010 when he only threw 4.

 

[Ivan]

Ill revisit this debate once both of them retire. Sort of tired of talking about it for now.

Why bother, there is no debate any more.

 

[upstater1]

My favorite stat-based argument is the domed passing rating v. outdoor passing rating. That says it all. Brady's rting is higher than Manning's outdoors, higher than Manning's indoors.

 

[1960Pats]

Beating Brett (Pick) Favre in career interceptions is truly a lofty accomplishment.
We have a Patriotic duty to propagate the meme that Peyton's nickname is Pick Six, P6.

P6's nickname has been P6 for as long as I can remember. And he's held on to it right to this day. He's the best (or worst if you're a Bronco).

 

[stevedogc]

My personal favorite Brady vs. Manning fact:

What did Tom Brady do in first ever playoff start that Manning has never done in the playoffs, spanning 23 games? A double digit, 4th qtr comeback (pats were down 13-3 to Oak at start of 4th qtr during snowbowl game).

 

[LightSkinSmurf]

Why bother, there is no debate any more.

If manning wins another ring or two, there will surely be a debate. Heck, people are already debating the hell out of this topic now. I personally got bored and tired of debating this a long time ago. There is still much left to be determined. I think in order for it to not be a debate anymore brady has to win one more ring.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Well, Peyton must have been still "figuring it out" in 1998 because he didn't just throw 15 INTs, he threw 28. The other 7 seasons with 15 or more:

1999: 15
2000: 15
2001: 23
2002: 19
2009: 16
2010: 17
2014: 15 (and counting)

Interestingly enough, the year the Colts won the Super Bowl (2006 season) was the year he threw the fewest (9). Tom's best year was 2010 when he only threw 4.

Those facts are true, but again, are INTs the almighty measurement of a QB?

The rookie season, I tend to overlook. He was a true rookie starter for a team that finished 3-13 the year before. He wasn't the first rookie QB to struggle before turning great, and he certainly won't be the last. Terry Bradshaw threw 6 TDs/24 INTs. Steve Young threw 8 TDs/21 INTs over his first two seasons as a starter. Troy Aikmen threw 9 TDs/18 INTs in only 11 games as a rookie starter.

And Manning learned quite a bit that rookie season, throwing only 6 TDs vs. 14 INTs in the first 6 games, then 20 TDs vs. 14 INTs over the last 10 games.

As for those 15-INT+ seasons, you only look at the INTs, and nothing else. Let's fill those in a bit more.

1999: 15 INTs. 62%, 26 TDs, 258 YPG, 90.7 RAT
2000: 15 INTs. 63%, 33 TDs, 276 YPG, 94.7 RAT
2001: 23 INTs. 63%, 26 TDs, 258 YPG, 84.1 RAT
2002: 19 INTs. 66%, 27 TDs, 263 YPG, 88.8 RAT
2009: 16 INTs. 69%, 33 TDs, 281 YPG, 99.9 RAT. NFL MVP and went to the Super Bowl.
2010: 17 INTs. 66%, 33 TDs, 294 YPG, 91.9 RAT
2014: 15 (and counting) INTs. 39 TDs, 297 YPG, 102.9 RAT

The 2001 and 2002 seasons are probably the worst of the bunch, but for the era, they were quite good (more on this below). However, it seems absolutely ridiculous that this "measurement" we are using includes an NFL MVP season (2009). In fact, it includes a second one (for another QB).

That 2001 season ended with Manning finishing 8th in passer rating. Kurt Warner won the MVP award in 2001 and threw 22 INTs. Based on the 15-INT "mark," that's a terrible season.

In 2002, Manning finished 5th in passer rating. Passer rating is a notoriously bizarre stat and hardly the most objective way of evaluating a QB (example: Chad Pennington led the league in 2002 while leading the Jets to their only division title during the BB era). But it does give a more rounded picture than just INTs alone, and it shows that even when Manning was at his most mediocre outside of his rookie season, he was still a top-10 QB.

Evaluating QBs by INT numbers alone is really not a reliable indication of the QB's season. That's all I'm trying to say here.

 

[FourierSeries]

The debate will end this year when Brady does something Manning failed miserably at last year - i.e. beating the Seahawks in the SB.

 

[borg]

I would love to see a graphic representation of where completions are made on the field relative to the QB...much like the graphic in baseball that charts every hit.

Though the two QBs play the same position, Brady and Manning play the game differently. Brady's game has always been the high percentage, short game over the middle. Manning's has always been a higher risk passing game that attacks the perimeter and down field. Both have succeeded but in different ways. This INT comparison sheds a bit of light but is too simplistic to define these guys .
Efficiency or risk....both guys hoisted trophies when their team fielded the best defense. Manning definitely coughed up a major lung last year....and Brady has had some moments to forget in big games during the team's decade of "almost"
The reality....usually.......the best team, not the best QB hoists the trophy.

 

[RelocatedPatFan]

Evaluating QBs by INT numbers alone is really not a reliable indication of the QB's season. That's all I'm trying to say here.

Didn't the article basically state that they were very similar in all other stats (by averages, not total volume). It was just the ints that stood out? I don't think it was the end-all-be-all of a single stat, the author was basically stating that the INTs was noticeably the most different (and INTs had a higher correlation to losing).

 

[borg]

He's three interesting statistical comparisons:

Brady: Playoff Record as Starting QB: 2001 (3-0), 2003 (3-0), 2004 (3-0), 2005 (1-1), 2006 (2-1), 2007 (2-1), 2009 (0-1), 2010 (0-1), 2011 (2-1), 2012 (1-1), 2013 (1-1)
Manning: Playoff Record as Starting QB: 1999 (0-1), 2000 (0-1), 2002 (0-1), 2003 (2-1), 2004 (1-1), 2005 (0-1), 2006 (4-0), 2007 (0-1), 2008 (0-1), 2009 (2-1), 2010 (0-1), 2012 (0-1), 2013 (2-1)

Brady: Playoff Comebacks: 2001 (1),2003 (1),2006 (1),2011 (1)
Manning: Playoff Comebacks: 2006 (1)

Brady: Playoff Game-Winning Drives: 2001 (2),2003 (2),2004 (1),2006 (1),2011 (1)
Manning: Playoff Game-Winning Drives: 2006 (1)

 

[1960Pats]

My personal favorite Brady vs. Manning fact:

What did Tom Brady do in first ever playoff start that Manning has never done in the playoffs, spanning 23 games? A double digit, 4th qtr comeback (pats were down 13-3 to Oak at start of 4th qtr during snowbowl game).

And he capped it all off with an incredible drive to win it in OT. All done in a blizzard. Amazing.