Welcome to PatsFans.com

Manning is more skilled than Brady? Please explain.

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Deus Irae, Jun 29, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2006
    Messages:
    40,755
    Likes Received:
    52
    Ratings:
    +70 / 3 / -1

    My Jersey:

    (Please note that I'm not asking this to bash Manning, or anyone else for that matter. I'm just trying to get a better grasp of the thinking behind the claim, since it's not just Colts fans who put this forth.)

    On another thread, someone made an assertion that I see made quite a bit on message boards, radio programs and television, in one form or another:

    That post brought to mind a question I often ask and never get a satisfactory answer to:

    What "skillsets" is Manning better at than Brady?

    Is Manning more accurate than Brady? His completion % overall is higher, but does it hold up when you adjust for conditions? What about once you adjust for receiver quality?

    Is Manning's arm stronger than Brady's? If so, is the difference really enough to make a difference? Should the difference, if any, really be called a skillset?

    Does Manning read defenses better than Brady? If someone says "yes", what's the evidence?

    Is Manning a better leader of football players than Brady? Again, if someone says "yes", what's the evidence?

    Is Manning better at maneuvering in the pocket?

    Does Manning make better adjustments?


    What skills does Manning have that are superior to Brady's, and what is the evidence for the claim? Anyone.....?
  2. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2007
    Messages:
    16,254
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +11 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #12 Jersey
    He's demonstrably better at waving his arms around at the line of scrimmage, so there is that.
  3. aurakilla

    aurakilla Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2009
    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    he helps lead the colts to Ws all season..............then playoff time forgets how to throw the ball, except for 1 season.
  4. nabwong

    nabwong PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2007
    Messages:
    2,319
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +3 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    #12 Jersey
    Couldn't you reverse this also? What evidence is Brady better than Manning? (don't say 2 more superbowls).

    I just think that we can never quantify them. They're both great players. The patriots will always rather have Brady and the Colts will always rather have Manning. If Brady did not exist, we'd all want Manning to be our QB.
  5. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2005
    Messages:
    12,955
    Likes Received:
    22
    Ratings:
    +30 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    He is more skilled at letting everybody know he might be calling an audible.

    He is more skilled at growing a forehead.

    He is more skilled on SNL skits.

    He is more skilled at Oreo licking competitions.

    He is more skilled in communicating to the media that it was the offensive line's fault.

    He is more skilled at Riverdance impersonations when there is pocket pressure.
  6. Keegs

    Keegs Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2006
    Messages:
    4,924
    Likes Received:
    7
    Ratings:
    +7 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    i wouldn't

    id want big ben
  7. matt9071

    matt9071 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2009
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Agreed although Brady did have a solid SNL appearance.
  8. bagwell368

    bagwell368 Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    739
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Manning plays in a dome. Manning has had on average the most expensive offense in the league since his 2nd year, and far better WR, TE, RB's to catch and run the ball then the Pats have had. Those two things account for Mannings better regular season stats - 25 ypg and 1.8 higher QB rating then Brady.

    However, in the playoffs, he goes hysterical (see tape of Jan '04 and Jan '05 playoff games in Foxboro, loses his cool, demonstrates he isn't a leader, and his QB rating is 5 points worse then his regular season, while Brady's is better in the playoffs against better teams.

    Brady has made far more out of what he has to work with in terms of skill players. He was a low draft pick, and his lifetime earnings are still well below Mannings in total and average by year. This allows the Pats to get more solid players to put around him, while Manning's Colts are built around 5-6 stars.

    Manning wins the battle of commercials. Sadly for him the Colts are going into decline for the next 3 years at least, and by the time they come out of it, Manning will likely be done, or near done, no more SB for you!
  9. feldspar

    feldspar Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Well, Brady and Manning are both excellent QBs. You can argue which one is better until the moon goes down.

    Manning, however, calls his own plays and does audibles...actually calls the shots a LOT more than Brady. Also, Manning hasn't had the benefit of a decent defense for much or most of his time in Indy. That's why Manning has had to shoulder the burden of his whole team in his time in Indy more than Brady has...a lot more, I'd say.

    I figure Brady has had the benefit of a lot of things, including better coaching, something you shouldn't underestimate.

    It would take me quite some time to consider which of these two I'd rather have on my team during his prime. But I'd have to go with Manning right now. Sorry, but he's much more accomplished. You can't pin the winning or losing of Super Bowls on one guy, so don't bring that up as an indicator.

    Manning has NINE season of over 4,000 yards. His other two seasons were pretty close to 4,000...both under 300 yards to that mark. This is an incredible feat, folks. Meanwhile, Tom has had only TWO seasons of over 4,000 yards.

    Brady fumbles the ball A LOT more than Manning...a lot more.

    If you care about passer rating, Peyton's is higher than Tom's. His completion percentage is slightly higher.

    Manning is less than a year and a half older than Brady, and Manning has...

    19,128 more yards
    136 more touchdowns

    Manning has just done more...a lot more. Manning is probably the best pure passer I've seen. Not to put Brady down; he's damn good as well.

    You asked, I told.
  10. glm

    glm Rookie

    Joined:
    May 13, 2009
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    So, how's Manning in the postseason?
  11. upstater1

    upstater1 Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12,926
    Likes Received:
    9
    Ratings:
    +9 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    You're blinder than blind. Manning is a huge choke artist who has had all world weapons on offense, and he just turtled in the playoffs and threw interceptions left and right.
  12. feldspar

    feldspar Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    See post #9.
  13. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,787
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    My impression is that Manning is more accurate than Brady when he is in the pocket. His accuracy is worse, however, when he is on the move.

    I can't see any difference in the speed of the ball (i.e. arm strength) between the two.

    They both slide around the pocket well; Brady is probably the best in the League at that.

    Tom Brady handles adversity better and is a great leader.

    They both work really hard.

    Oh, and Brady is much more clutch.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  14. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,845
    Likes Received:
    28
    Ratings:
    +31 / 2 / -0

    My Jersey:

    So the fact that Manning has had an all pro WR core around him for his entore career, and has played his entire career in a dome (and struggled in outdoor games) has no bearing on the statistical discrepancy?

    The first full season Brady had with weapons comparable to Peyton's, he blew the doors off the league even without the dome factor.

    The only reason why it's even a question at this point is because Peyton was drafted higher and was hyped coming out of college and started in the league earlier than Brady did.

    I guarantee you that Brady has a much bigger impact on the rest of the team than Manning does.
  15. Dirk3601215

    Dirk3601215 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Brady's SNL was pretty funny.
  16. TommyBrady12

    TommyBrady12 Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Messages:
    3,328
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -1

    My Jersey:

    i've argued this a lot on the colts board. manning is a better regular season quarterback and not so much a playoff qb. He's thrown 22 TDs in the playoffs: 9 TDs have been in two games against the Denver Broncos. Take those two Bronco games away and he's only thrown 13 tds in 13 playoff games. this is very average for a qb of manning's stature. also, manning has thrown for 0 or 1 td in 12 out of 15 playoff games or something to that extent. this is why the colts keep losing in the playoffs - manning. all i hear is peyton doesn't have a defense, offense, coaching or special teams from colts fans every year. in the post season you have to be wired differently as a qb. peyton doesn not have the mindset of a great playoff quarterback. in the playoffs you have to go on the road in places like NE, Denver, Pitt and Baltimore. you don't always have the opportunity to stay in a warm fuzzy dome.
  17. eagle eye

    eagle eye Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,206
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Ok Feldspar, I will ask you to answer these questions.

    You have a choice of either Brady or Manning for the Superbowl.

    Who do you go with and why?

    I want the plus and minus for both.

    Who is the best quarterback in history not including any of the present players? And why do you rate that guy no.1?


    Just so I can get a handle on where you are coming from. ;)
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  18. Dirk3601215

    Dirk3601215 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    The fact that Peyton has played with Marvin Harrison his whole career obviously didn't enter into your reasoning. Brady's played with scrubs his whole career.

    Neither did the fact that he plays indoors. Like, you know, where snow CAN'T get in. Brady plays outside. You know, where snow and rain and wind and the cold and all that other stuff that happens outdoors CAN get in. U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D?

    Regular season numbers FTL. Wanna post some playoff stats please?
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  19. feldspar

    feldspar Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    What, like in 2000, when he posted a 121.4 QB rating, completing 72.7% of his passes for two TDs and 0 INTs in Indy's only playoff game? Do you figure that it's his fault the Colts lost that game?

    2002, not so good.

    2003, excellent in 2 of 3 games. Absolutely mind-blowing excellent...until he faced New England. First game, 158.3 rating...I'm not sure, but I don't think you can do better than that...5 TDs, 0 INTs, 84.6% completions, 377 yards. Second game, 138.8 rating, 73.3% completions for 304 yards, 3 TDs and 0 INTs. Then it all fell to sh*t in New England.

    2004 - One game...excellent again statistically, although I don't know why he only attempted 10 passes. According to nfl.com, he completed 6 of those 10 passes though, and HALF of them were for touchdowns. 3 TDs and 0 INTs for a passer rating of 143.8. The Colts lost that game. Was it Manning's fault?

    2005 - had one bad game in the playoffs. Pretty bad, actually.

    2006 - didn't have the best postseason, but the Colts win the Super Bowl anyway. They came in as a Wild Card and benefited from their defense stepping up. Are you going to give him credit for winning this Super Bowl. Well, you should, if you are going to give Brady credit for winning three.

    2007 - had a pretty good game, but his team lost. 118.5 QB rating.

    2008 - good game. Manning completed 59.5% of his passes for 310 yards, a TD, and no INTs.


    There you have Manning's postseason history. It's not the choke-job people make it out to be. And without Adam Vinatieri, Brady might not be labeled Mr. Perfect, or whatever the hell...
  20. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    20,236
    Likes Received:
    32
    Ratings:
    +33 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    FWIW, I once took a look at this (I was bored or sick or something. . . .).

    If you go game-by-game, and compare Brady and Manning, you'll find that by the end of their 16th games as starters, Brady had a higher QB rating than Manning—and that never changes.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  21. TruthSeeker

    TruthSeeker PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,787
    Likes Received:
    3
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    The question is whether or not Manning does it better than Brady, not whether or not he does it more. I hardly think that Manning either calls his plays or audibles better than Brady.


    Again, the question isn't whether he's had to shoulder more of the burden; the question is whether he is better at shouldering the burden than Brady. Based on their performances when they've actually had to shoulder the burden, I think Brady has clearly done the better job.

    Again, the question isn't who has had what advantages; the question is who does the better job.


    Certainly a factor to consider. But, on the other hand, you also have to consider

    - what Manning was asked to do in the Colts offense (score, baby, score)
    - what Brady was asked to do in the Pats offense (in 2007: score, baby, score. In other years, play more conservatively in order to maximize the chances of winning the game)
    - the weapons each had (consistently better for Manning up until 2007)
    - the field they've played on (turf vs. natural grass)
    - the weather conditions they've played in (dome vs. New England weather conditions)
    - Brady's performance when he actually had great offensive weapons (record setting season)

    Taking everything into account, I don't see much difference. I think you could make an argument either way. Brady's 2007 season - including all the games in less than ideal conditions - is a very powerful statement that he may well have performed as well or better than Manning given the same circumstances as Manning. However, it was only one season that far surpassed his other seasons. But it was the only season he truly had weapons on offense that came close to matching what Manning has had his entire career.


    I'll take your word for it. Good point.

    As I mentioned in another thread, Manning has a lower rating on turf and a lower rating on grass. It is reasonable to conclude that he has a higher rating than Brady because he has played so much more on turf than grass. At any rate, I don't think QB rating significantly rates one over the other.

    I'm sorry, age is supposed to matter? (as opposed to something like games played or passes attempted?) Your bias is showing...

    I see you left out other relevant categories that don't favor Manning as much such as clutch play and playoff performances to name a couple. Also, to essentially ignore Championships in favor of offensive statistics (which are also produced by a team, not an individual) seems biased as well to me.

    That would be Dan Marino for me.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  22. Gunnails

    Gunnails Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    2,622
    Likes Received:
    4
    Ratings:
    +4 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    It's a hell of compliment to both QBs to be compared to each other.

    They are both Hall Of Fame bound, I say you could not go wrong with either in there prime.
  23. aurakilla

    aurakilla Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2009
    Messages:
    605
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    we should do this by wins, and i think brady has more in less starts..........correct??
  24. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    6,665
    Likes Received:
    8
    Ratings:
    +8 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Let's compare apples to apples. Manning has played 11 season to Brady's 7 when you don't count 2008 (lost season) and his rookie year when he sat behind Bledsoe.
    Compare season averages and Brady (outside with the likes of Reche Caldwell and journeymen until 2007) 3766 total passing yards 28.1/12.28 TD/int average 1 Int per 42.4 attempts...
    MAnning with pro bowlers mostly (and indoors mostly) 4148 seasonal average 30/15 and 1 int per 36.1 attempts.

    First round playoff games Manning 3-6
    First round playoff games Brady 6-0......
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  25. feldspar

    feldspar Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Meanwhile, here is Tom Brady's post-season history:

    2001: threw one TD through three entire games along with 1 INT. Good completion percentage at 61.9%, but 2 of the three games saw him passing for under 150 yards. 77.3 passer rating. Not very impressive numbers, but it was his first year starting, and it got the job done, enough to flush out Bledsoe and his unprecedented $100 million contract.

    2002 - didn't make the playoffs.

    2003 - just OK in the first two games. Passer rating in the mid-seventies, 2 TDs, one pick, percentage of completions in the mid-fifties somewher... In the Super Bowl, he did very well, though...

    2004 - Did very well statistically, although averaged less than 200 yards per game. He didn't throw a single pick through the three games, and had 5 TDs. Passer rating of 109.4. Very good, and nothing to complain about here.

    2005 - did enough to win the first game...55.6% completions with 3 TDs and 0 INTs with a passer rating of 116.4, although he fumbled the ball twice with 0 lost. The second game, he gained 341 yards, but threw 2 picks as opposed to one TD for a passer rating of 74.

    2006 - Brady was pretty mediocre in the post-season, all things considered. He was lucky to get past San Diego the way he was playing...the whole team got lucky there. 58.4% completions, 5 TDs to 4 INTs, and a 76.5 passer rating. Not bad for the playoffs, but not good enough.

    2007 - Excellent first game, pretty bad second game, and mediocre third game. The point I want to make here is that, if any Pats fan thinks that Manning has ever "choked" in the playoffs, I can't see how they could ever say that Brady didn't "choke" in this playoff run. You simply can't have it both ways. This year, the Patriots had probably the best offense in league history, and they'd dominated teams like I'd never seen throughout the season. If you want to talk choke, look no further. Yeah, I know, I'm a "hater." But really, I'm making a valid point here if you can get past your emotions.

    2008 - doesn't apply.
  26. Dirk3601215

    Dirk3601215 Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    150
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Epic failures.

    2002-AT NYJ. Not in his warm, comfy little RCA dome. 0 TD's, 2 INT's, 31.2 QB rating. Not so good? More like terrrible.

    2003-The first game he played was in the RCA dome. He plays good in the RCA dome because the weather is nice. The 2nd game was in KC, he played the 19th ranked defense in the NFL. 19th. That's not very good. Still, got to give credit to Peyton here. He played very good. Too bad he can't do it more often. The next game: epic failure. 1 TD. 4 INT's. QB rating under 50. Did I mention he had the 2nd best offense in the NFL during the regular season? Did I mention that it was snowing this game? Peyton can't play in bad weather.

    2004-You're talking about his pro bowl that year...

    In this post season, Peyton played 2 playoff games. 1 in his dome and 1 on the road. He played great at home, like always. He sucked on the road though, it was snowing. BTW, he had the 5th best offense of all-time and set an NFL record with 49 TD's during the regular season. But who cares? He couldn't get it done on the road, in the snow, when it mattered.

    Was this when he threw his Oline under the bus after the game, or the year before it? I can't remember.

    2005-against the Steelers. He was bad. He threw an INT to Polamalu that the refs completely missed (reviewed it) which almost lost the Steelers the game. Anyone remember that? One of the biggest blown calls in recent playoff history IMO. That would have all but ended the game and season for Indy. But the refs bailed Peyton out... again. This game was at home too. And he still didn't play well. Weird.

    2006-Had 3 TD's and 7 INT's in 4 games. His team won despite him.

    2007-Probably the only game he's played where it wasn't his fault they lost. He still had a chance to win it in the end though and he couldn't get it done.

    2008-I remember that game. Manning should have been picked off like 3 times if it were not for SD having stone fingers. Peyton also had a chance to put the game on ice at the end of the 4th quarter. But he couldn't. He ended up losing in OT. What else is new?

    You can have Peyton if you like. I'll take Mr. Brady instead.
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
  27. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2005
    Messages:
    20,236
    Likes Received:
    32
    Ratings:
    +33 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Percentage, not absolute.

    Regular season:
    Brady: 87 wins in 111 starts (.784)
    Manning: 117 wins in 176 starts (.664)

    Post-season:
    Brady: 14 wins in 17 starts (.823)
    Manning: 7 wins in 15 starts (.467)

    Overall:
    Brady: 101 wins in 128 starts (.789)
    Manning: 124 wins in 191 starts (.649)

    To put this in perspective, for Manning to have the same win %age as Brady, he'd have to win 33 consecutive starts.
  28. feldspar

    feldspar Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    OK, let's do that.

    Over 11 seasons, Manning has had 52 fumbles with 17 lost

    Over 7 seasons, Brady has had 65 fumbles with 29 lost.

    Also, believe it or not, Manning has had 17 rushing TDs as opposed to Brady's 5.

    Super Bowl wins aside, Manning is a much more accomplished QB than Brady. Take away Vin
  29. feldspar

    feldspar Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    If you are going to twist it to look like Manning can't do anything outside of a dome or has never had a downright perfect playoff game, you are going to lose all of your credibility.
  30. eagle eye

    eagle eye Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,206
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    My Jersey:

    Tom Brady------------14-3 - 372-595, 3954 yards, 26 TD, 12 INT; 88.0 PR
    Peyton Manning--------7-8 - 348-564 4208 yards, 26 TD 17 INT; 85.0 PR
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page